Zhan Zhuang is Not for Beginners

[Sahaja]

Sharing my experience which may differ from others - hope people find it useful. 

 

When I first learned  static postures many years ago my martial arts instructor called them mental forms. There were many different ones, some quite complicated and challenging to hold for even a short time. I initially thought this term “mental form” meant just having enough mind to overcome the physical discomfort of holding the position to physically develop the body and develop power..  Later  I realized in much longer stances& seats there is also a mental urge to stop from boredom and do something (anything) else that also was a challenge to overcome and was different  than just overcoming the physical discomfort . Over many years I was exposed to static stance training from a number  of teachers and systems in qi gong, martial arts and even in yoga. 

 

My understanding is that many systems have a “wuji” type stance (simple stance without much external complexity) to start the  body change process. My understanding is that  at a basic level what this entails is  hanging flesh from the bones while using the mind to  ting (listen) and song (release tension in the tissue & mind ) This involves  essentially turning off tension/contraction in the large muscle groups as much as possible while maintaining the skeletal structure fully erect. This “relaxed’ stretching of the internal connective tissue from gravity has a different quality of development associated with it than normal external  stretching or stressing muscle tissue through resistance. This can lead to the development/connection of the tissue lattice network of the internal   “wetsuit” making energetic connections between parts of the body not normally connected possible  (e.g hand/palm to lower abdomen, etc) My experience is this also can lead to internal energetic  efficacy of hand mudras and various other hand positions as well. 

 
“Wuji” can be used as a stand alone position with the weight fully sunk to the feet to open yongquan and connect with the earth. Depending on how the  foot is used, this opening can also develop the lower Dan tian and even commence its rotation. .  This opening of the feet (yongquan, etc)  can lead to  the  flow of energy/force up from the feet to shoulders and arms (or head). This energetic flow can expand and internally open  the legs, kua, back, spine, shoulders and arms and is part of what makes the ZZ arm position magic work. 
 

“Wuji” is also used as a position to hold at the end of practice to allow the previous practice’s  internal mechanisms to continue to work in the body. “Wuji” simple stance can work a bit like a blank sheet of paper that due to lack of much complex structure, while maintaining  the relaxed internal connective tissue stretch, allows these internal processes to continue with little interference.  
 

Obviously “wuji” basic stance is used in conjunction with many, many other practices but in my understanding it is very important in the overall process of internal development. To balance this internal work it’s very important to also develop the external body (muscles, joints, bones etc) through more conventional exercise. 
 

I am sure other’s experience varies - just sharing my own. 
 

 

Edited October 6 by Sahaja
Missed word.

[Master Logray]

21 minutes ago, Antares said:

But I dont think people have so much time. I normally have 2 hours for practicing. Sometime 60 minutes

Freeform does retreats in rural areas as far as I know, so he has more time

 

2 hours is your total practice time, right?   The horrible 6 hours mentioned is ZZ alone.  Then I presume there is no more sitting.  

[Master Logray]

22 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

 

“Wuji” is also used as a position to hold at the end of practice to allow the previous practice’s  internal mechanisms to continue to work in the body. “Wuji” simple stance can work a bit like a blank sheet of paper that due to lack of much complex structure, while maintaining  the relaxed internal connective tissue stretch, allows these internal processes to continue with little interference.  

 

 

You say the whole process so well.   As to the end of exercises Wuji, I would recommend to everyone if they are not already doing so.  A few minutes (say 3) would be sufficient.

[ChiDragon]

17 hours ago, jgd said:

 

It's more like if you are only doing stillness in your wuji, you never learned wuji

Looks like you've never learnt what wuji(無極) meant. FYI It means stillness to a point of infinity. How much more still can one be at this point?

Edited October 7 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

On 10/6/2025 at 10:53 AM, Master Logray said:

As to the end of exercises Wuji, 

I assume that you meant at the end of exercises, you come to the Wuji position of stillness. 

Yes, at the end of the exercise, all practitioners come to a standing still. BTW They don't call it Wuji for nothing. 

Edited October 7 by ChiDragon

[jgd]

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Looks like you've never learnt what wuji(無極) meant. FYI It means stillness to a point of infinity. How much more still can one be at this point?

 

I quoted six different unrelated methods that shared the same physical approach to wuji. Sahaja explained the idea really nicely. You start with wuji, you end with wuji...but if your wuji is doing nothing, then you get nothing from it

Edited October 7 by jgd

[ChiDragon]

45 minutes ago, jgd said:

You start with wuji, you end with wuji..

That is correct. You start from the initial state at zero which is wuji. Whatever you do, finally, you will come to a stop and return to the original state of wuji. In other words, you went back to the state of stillness.

[Master Logray]

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

That is correct. You start from the initial state at zero which is wuji. Whatever you do, finally, you will come to a stop and return to the original state of wuji. In other words, you went back to the state of stillness.

 

Jgd and others said if you get nothing from it means all your efforts are useless and futile.   There could be some side benefits but you also lose out the opportunity costs.   But if you have a purpose like fighting, health, cultivation, enlightenment, wealth or just for impress others, you could have some returns.  Stillness state itself has no use at all.   

 

Taoist sages always said, if you become a rock, it is still enough, but what is the purpose?   

 

[ChiDragon]

34 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Stillness state itself has no use at all.   

If you know your stuff and standing still at the wuji position, then,  no one will know what your next move is.

Edited October 7 by ChiDragon

[Neirong]

On 04.10.2025 at 6:35 PM, forestofclarity said:

Thoughts? 

A silly bait for views

Any good system has a progression of practices, where one practice would eventually flow into another. It is not a collection of do this and that, for unknown reasons.
 

You may not be able to gain significant benefits and excel with advanced practices until you complete your milestones/attainments with beginner practices. Being a beginner, advanced, or more is always a relative term; if you start from something and then move to a more advanced form that you could not do before, that is called progression.
 

That progression could vary a lot from system to system. In kindergarten, learning basic calculus would really be "advanced practice", while at the Ph.D level in sciences, if you do not know maths, you will be considered mentally impaired. The end of one cultivation system could be the very beginning of another one.

Most people I have observed are unable to maintain their concentration uninterrupted for 30 minutes. That is the bare minimum duration for a practice. That is why they have to go and learn proper foundations and work their way through a range of practices step by step. You cannot skip the foundations or progression, or you will forever be stuck in a place of nowhere.

P.s. If it is not clear, I do consider ZZ or standing post a beginner practice.

[Antares]

16 minutes ago, Neirong said:

P.s. If it is not clear, I do consider ZZ or standing post a beginner practice.

so, is it okey to do ZZ for 40 minutes for beginners? with arms on chest level. really good idea?

[Neirong]

6 minutes ago, Antares said:

so, is it okey to do ZZ for 40 minutes for beginners? with arms on chest level. really good idea?

 

I have done it, ZZ was one of the very first practices I was taught, and we had to stand for 55 minutes without movement as newbies.
 

It was not a basic form you can find online or in screenshots in this thread, or whatever nonsense Damo is teaching, like just stand and keep your arms on a certain level, no, we had to maintain full concentration on multiple aspects without internal dialogue, do proper breathing and circulate energy, at the same time as standing and holding the form static.
 

It is a beginner-friendly practice because anyone can do it with some willpower and quality instructions, but there are plenty of practices that nobody can do.
 

I know a few hundred practices that would require one of the following even to attempt -

permanent state of samadhi,
revived past incarnation,

developed elemental affinity,
activated third eye,
a complete mastery over your astral body,
a visualization skill of a certain level,
or a certain density of mental bodies, that take several decades to accumulate via secret methods that cannot be found in any kind of book in this world.

Those above would certainly not be beginner practice.

Legitimate Daoist teachings would have something similar in terms of progression, like practices that cannot be performed without a fully activated lower dantien.
 

There is a difference between natural restrictions or prerequisites, and simply gatekeeping and peddling slop, trying to sell it as "ancient Taoist wisdom".

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

It is a beginner-friendly practice because anyone can do it with some willpower and quality instructions

Absolutely not. I know there are many so called instructors who can give you "quality instructions" on how to...

I tell you story about my first "qualified" teacher who had license from Chinese Qiqong Association that proved he studied some form of qigong there. And this guy hung this paper on the wall in his center. He gave big promotion to his center in town.

He taught IMA and qigong. One day he said he is going to show us very powerful form of qigong he learned in China. He showed movements for the 1st time and then it was continued day by day...

One day I asked what the name of this qigong. He said - Falun Dafa. Which he learned from youtube.

He really believed he is very qualified teacher and charged good money.

------------------------

As for ZZ on chest level it is very unsafe practice for beginners. Lower center can absorb a lot of energy but on the level of the middle one there can be a glut of qi that can lead to insomnia and problems with fire in heart and liver. No one should begin practicing from this level. Some dynamic exercises on this level are fine but if you come back to lower center back again

Edited October 7 by Antares

[dwai]

Interesting conversation (I'm sure we've all discussed this many times on this board). FWIW, we should never do just standing. Standing should be complemented by moving. So in the context of Taijiquan, if we stand (beginners should not stand for more than 5-10 minutes and slowly build up standing time) - it builds power, we should also practice a moving form to circulate the power.  If people only stand, they can end up damaging their kidneys or other health problems. Another thing about standing, imho, is that the mental state is very important - one must be "sung" in the mind as well as the body. 

[Sahaja]

While there are many different approaches to learning the lessons of static stance work, in my work with a number of different systems there seemed to be a basic, simpler stance taught as a platform with modifications built on that - as many as 20 or 30 or more. This often included different leg stances as well. 
 

 I think one can go quite far in cultivation just with the simple, basic “platform” stance. In my previous comment  becoming more adept at having one’s mind absorbed inside applying song and ting,  opening yong quan, learning how to respond to physical and mental discomfort and both connecting  with and directing the upward rising expanding  energy to open the body and build energy can all be cultivated in the basic simple”wuji”  stance.  

 

In the systems I am familiar with, Additions/modifications are made to the basic platform stance  for specific cultivation reasons which will vary based on the art you study  and how your teacher was taught. The way I learned Zhang Zhuang was as a specific application working on a specific quality after a good deal of time in basic stance and movement practices.  For me the prep work enabled me to connect with the lesson. Others might emphasize ZZ more and earlier  in their study for reasons relative to their art and their teacher’s experience/preference. 
 

dwai makes an important point about over reliance on static postures and the need to balance them with movement to avoid stagnation and associated health consequences. Easy to get carried away with what you like to do, whatever it is. Trying to physically impose your will on your body practicing something or at a level  you are not ready for also could also lead to this and some other nasty problems as well.   My yoga teacher always counseled against imposition in practice as it carried a price, sometimes a lot higher than you bargained for. There is another saying from yoga about energy work that I think is applicable here  - When taming wild animals it’s usually a good idea to take your time.
 

On balancing  static practices with movement, I would emphasize that this movement include movement of the physical body  with just  Yi and qi (not only external physically based movements). This is important for both cultivation and health reasons. 

[ChiDragon]

6 hours ago, Neirong said:

I have done it, ZZ was one of the very first practices I was taught, and we had to stand for 55 minutes without movement as newbies.

Did it make your legs stronger?

[ChiDragon]

11 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Jgd and others said if you get nothing from it means all your efforts are useless and futile

The benefit one can get from Wuji is to relax the body. Why does one want to keep the body in motion all the time?

Edited October 7 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

To learn martial arts, one must know the principles of Yijing(易經). The principle of yin/yang was from the understanding of Wuji and Taiji. If one don't get it right the first time, then, the practice will be deviated from its true meaning. One will start at the wrong foot.

Things in the universe is alway started with Wuji, then to Taiji. Wuji is static and Taiji is dynamic. If one thinks that moving from Wuji is still Wuji,  how wrong can one be? Acturaly, as soon one took an action from the Wuji state, it becomes the state of Taiji. One is no longer in the Wuji state. It might be too difficult for someone to change the notion from what was learnt in the first place. 

https://www.learnreligions.com/wuji-wu-chi-3183136

[steve]

I think to define wuji simply as stillness, as opposed to dynamic, whether in practice or ontology, is misleading. Wuji is not “other than” or “opposed” to anything else, it is better expressed as undifferentiated, imo, not static. I certainly allow the body to move if it arises, standing quietly before or after the form or zhan zhuang. Taiji expresses motion vs stillness, their mutual arising both in form and meaning. Wuji embraces and does not favor ANY position relative to any other. All is completed and yet nothing is done.

Edited Wednesday at 12:24 PM by steve

[ChiDragon]

Just now, steve said:

 Wuji embraces and does not favor ANY position relative to any other.

However, it has to be in one position as defined by the martial arts practitioners with consistency in communication.

[Antares]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

FWIW, we should never do just standing. Standing should be complemented by moving.

It should be CORRECT moving (moving is yang) complemented by CORRECT standing (yin). So it is not just standing and moving that people do in 1000 variations of qigong styles. How and when to stand matters too.

[Forestgreen]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

However, it has to be in one position as defined by the martial arts practitioners

Why? 

Why would a definition by a martial artist take presedence over the definition made by someone else?  

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Why? 

Why would a definition by a martial artist take presedence over the definition made by someone else?  

I didn't say a martial artist. I said martial arts practitionerS. The definition of Wuji was already existed what it is in the mind of the Taoist practitioners. I don't know why someone else wanted to reinvent the wheel?

Edited Wednesday at 08:41 AM by ChiDragon

[Antares]

@-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- I know you do Rudi' neigong. Interesting if there Is ZZ stance on chest level in level 1?

[steve]

9 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

However, it has to be in one position as defined by the martial arts practitioners with consistency in communication.

 

Agreed, in practice we stand for a time before we begin and after we end. My teacher encouraged standing for as long as possible after completing the form, 5 minutes minimum.