No, you don't have to build a Dantian

[SodaChanh]

From Rob Coons 

 

https://immortalitystudy.substack.com/p/no-you-dont-have-to-build-a-dantian

 

Quote

No, you don't have to build a Dantian

 

There is an interesting misconception masked as a concensus in the community recently that in order to practice Dan Dao or martial arts properly you have to first build a Dantian. The logic goes that if you don't already have sufficient Qi, you don't have a Dantian, but no text has ever said such a thing, so let's look at it from a rational perspective and try to understand what is going on.

 

1: The term Dantian and what it means:

 

The term Dantian is a Daoist term which in the beginning of Daoist study did not have an absolute meaning. Dan means elixir, Tian means field, so Dan Tian means a field which has elixir.

 

The oldest known mention of the Dantian is the Laozi Ming which says the Dantian is a great purple room.

 

Purple is a combination of red and black which refers to Yin embracing Yang, so the idea of Dantian is similar to Laozi's idea of the mystery womb.

 

Red growing within black symbolizes pregnancy, gestation, conception and the root of all life.

 

In other words, all sentient beings contain this root from the outset.

 

The earliest definition of Dantian as a fixed location comes from Bao Pu Zi, he says that the lower Dantian is three cun and two fen beneath the umblicus, which he holds to be the width of four fingers (sorry contemporary TCM practitioners, Baopuzi seems to disagree with you).

 

By the Tang dynasty Chinese Medicine ideas about Jing, Qi and Shen had become well established in Daoist practice and the lower Dantian was understood to be associated with Jing.

 

The proper role of the lower Dantian in internal alchemy is as the grounds in which jing is gradually transformed to Qi with the middle Dantian (upper abdomen) being the location where Qi is turned into Shen and the upper Dantian being the location where Shen is turned into emptiness.

 

The reasoning is that the jing in the kidneys (kidney organs and external genitals) can be transformed and the hidden Yang material within them can be released as a medical substance in the body.

 

This substance passes the Du meridian and enters the brain, which are also made of kidney Jing in the pre-birth state. The Qi from the brain enters the mouth and returns to the area behind the umbilicus, gradually causing it to rise into the middle Dantian over many months.

 

Eventually the middle and lower Dantian merge as one Dantian and the “sage fetus” is generated.

 

This marks the maturation of Jing transforming to Qi and the beginning of Qi transforming to Shen.

 

2: Following that logic:

 

following that logic, what is the reason why the lower Dantian must be created?

 

This location is a point from which energy is generated, then it is stored behind the umbilicus, which is a point between the lower and middle Dantian, so it stands to reason that we have always had a lower Dantian and that it does not need to be generated in order to be present. Indeed many Neidan texts such as Tian Xian Zheng Li Lun refer to the three Dantian simply as Dantian from the outset of practice, no special language like cavity of Qi is used, or at least only minimally.

Read more in the link 

Edited Wednesday at 05:25 PM by SodaChanh

[Forestgreen]

Does one have to build a dantian in order to be a martial artist? 

Ask a boxer or a wrestler. They would laugh at the idea. 

 

Is the post heaven jing to qi to shen model used by Robert Coons internal alchemy as I see it? No. And I never understood how pasting a "pre heaven" before jing-qi-shen would add clarity. In my practice that doesn't compute, and so far noone has been able to explain it to me. 

 

Please do!

 

Is it advantageous to learn methods that supposedly build a physical dantian?  

Well, anyone can get a sensation of heat and pressure without it. 

 

For me, the sensation of (almost) physical movement inside, like tissues being pushed aside by an object, didn't come until after I had worked with the methods that supposedly build a physical dantian. 

 

Can't say I relate it to my neidan practice more than as a support for foundational practices. 

 

But after years here and on the internet in general, my conclusion is that the world is larger than the method I practice.  It is likely that there is a method creating neidan that is based upon the created physical dantian? Yes. Most likely.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

From Rob Coons 

 

https://immortalitystudy.substack.com/p/no-you-dont-have-to-build-a-dantian

 

Read more in the link 

So who is Rob Coons, what lineage does he learn from, what attainments does he have etc

[goretex]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

So who is Rob Coons, what lineage does he learn from, what attainments does he have etc

This isn't a direct answer as I don't know, but I think he used to post here as @sillybearhappyhoneyeater 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

15 minutes ago, goretex said:

This isn't a direct answer as I don't know, but I think he used to post here as @sillybearhappyhoneyeater 

Thanks for the answer! Will check out his posts 

[Lairg]

It may be better to consider a dantian as an energy vortex.

 

Since all energy is intelligent there is elemental intelligence in the vortex.  The intelligence may have trauma, need nourishment, training, coordination with other dantian .....

 

In a healthy human the elemental intelligence will be managed by a higher spirit - usually a nature spirit, but sometimes a higher deva.

 

The higher spirit may also need healing, nurturing, right relationships ....

 

When the human suffers significant trauma, contamination, interference etc, the managing intelligence of the damaged dantian may depart - leaving the human deficient in external functionality.   That is very common these days e.g. the incidence of severe autism and dementia - never saw or heard of such cases in my youth

 

Once I helped with a case of autism - a decade ago a boy aged 8 had a vaccination and a week later did not know his own name.  He did not relate to his family and was unhappy.   His emotional nature spirit had abandoned him.  Fortunately his mother's emotional nature spirit understood what to do, and split into two, with one going into the son.  The next day his mother emailed me that he was much happier and relating more easily to the family. 

 

There was still a problem with the intelligence operating his physical body - he could do things but needed to be told.  In that case the managing intelligence was still present but curled up tightly and needing nurturing to become active

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:19 PM by Lairg

[ChiDragon]

FYI
Dantian is just a location labeled to distinguish different parts of the body. For example, the upper dantian is the head, the middle dantian is the chest and the lower dantian is the abdomen. It is illogical to say that one needs to build a dantian since they are already existed by definition. 

Nowadays, when people speaking about the dantian it was referred to as the lower dantian(the abdomen). The most common phrase was used, by martial artists, like 氣沉丹田"sink chi into dantian" It simply means take a slow long breath and sink it deep into the abdomen. 
 

Some of the people have lots of misconceptions in using the term "dantian" is very misleading.  In the native language, 丹田 is a single term formed by compound character. The two characters should not be translated separately. The two characters should be treated as a term for the different parts of the body as described above! Therefor, it would be a big fallacy if the dantian has to be built for it to be existed. 

Edited Wednesday at 11:41 PM by ChiDragon

[Lairg]

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 It is illogical to say that one needs to build a dantian since they are already existed by definition. 

 

Labelling/identifying part of the physical body may be a useful map if there typically are specific energies anchored in that area.

 

But there is a tradition of mistaking the map for the reality

 

  

Edited yesterday at 12:04 AM by Lairg

[Zork]

12 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

From Rob Coons 

 

https://immortalitystudy.substack.com/p/no-you-dont-have-to-build-a-dantian

 

Read more in the link 

It is very easy to figure out if he is telling the truth or not. 

Look at his students. If they can Faqi or display the abilities that come with merging Yin and Yang chi, he is probably correct.

If not then there are two possible explanations:

1) he is making things up

2) he is not teaching the correct method to his students. 

[jgd]

 He also says that you can develop or fill your dantian so the whole discussion is about the starting point...

 

If this is only about you need to create a dantian vs you need to develop your dantian... a "level zero" dantian that already exists is as useful or useless as a "level zero" dantian that you need to build.

 

Build/rebuild to be able to do something with it vs develop and fill it to be able to do something with it...it's the same, just semantics

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, Zork said:

It is very easy to figure out if he is telling the truth or not. 

Look at his students. If they can Faqi or display the abilities that come with merging Yin and Yang chi, he is probably correct.

If not then there are two possible explanations:

1) he is making things up

2) he is not teaching the correct method to his students. 

Just this sentence alone was enough for me:

 

”No, you don't have to build a Dantian”

 

 

[Master Logray]

17 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

1: The term Dantian and what it means:

 

The term Dantian is a Daoist term which in the beginning of Daoist study did not have an absolute meaning. Dan means elixir, Tian means field, so Dan Tian means a field which has elixir.

 

 

Dan Tian means a field which is for growing/building of elixir.  A paddy field is used to grow rice.  A vine field is for growing grapes.  A construction site is for building a house.   The meaning is on the "Site".   It is not for storage of Chi, there are many words for storage, not need to use a "field".    It is not an oil well, otherwise it would be called Dan Spring, Dan Well.   

 

The idea to build a Dantian is even more problematic when many Neidan and martial arts lineages place little importance on it.   e.g. some schools' Dantian is at the back, outside of the body, near to the body, above the head etc.  How to "build" in these locations?   While many Kung Fu that stress mobility, agility, do not "sink Chi to Dantian" as it impair moving and particularly jumping ability.

 

[Vajra Fist]

As far as I know, zen doesn't teach hand positions or the specific standing exercises that daoists use to construct a dantien.

 

Yet the hara development is tangible, and comes through years and years of abdominal breathing.

 

The hara has many of the properties associated with dantien, I.e. a magnetic quality on the mind, a reservoir of ki etc. 

[forestofclarity]

This is just the old "are we building it or filling it argument" that every system with subtle body practices has. From the article: 

 

Quote

You can develop your Dantian, but you do not have to build it from scratch, since you already have it!!

 

3 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

As far as I know, zen doesn't teach hand positions or the specific standing exercises that daoists use to construct a dantien.

 

Yet the hara development is tangible, and comes through years and years of abdominal breathing.

 

The hara has many of the properties associated with dantien, I.e. a magnetic quality on the mind, a reservoir of ki etc. 

 

I was noting in the Mark Rasmus thread about this also. Zen in my mind really starts at the root and then extends into the body, so I think this is a difference. 

[Forestgreen]

15 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI
Dantian is just a location labeled to distinguish different parts of the body. For example, the upper dantian is the head, the middle dantian is the chest and the lower dantian is the abdomen. It is illogical to say that one needs to build a dantian since they are already existed by definition. 

In those traditions that claims it has to be built, the (physical) ldt does not exist by definition.

15 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Nowadays, when people speaking about the dantian it was referred to as the lower dantian(the abdomen).

I have practices that work on the ldt that definitely feels like the whole lower abdomen is involved. I also have practices that definitely feels like a golf ball sized thing exists in a more specific location inside my lower abdominal area. 

 

That leads to questions. Which sensation is the real ldt?

And was it created or developed? 

15 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

The two characters should be treated as a term for the different parts of the body as described above! Therefor, it would be a big fallacy if the dantian has to be built for it to be existed. 

What if the fallacy is to equal lower abdomen with ldt?

[Forestgreen]

3 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

As far as I know, zen doesn't teach hand positions or the specific standing exercises that daoists use to construct a dantien.

But Shaolin traditions do.

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

As far as I know, zen doesn't teach hand positions or the specific standing exercises that daoists use to construct a dantien.

 

Yet the hara development is tangible, and comes through years and years of abdominal breathing.

 

The hara has many of the properties associated with dantien, I.e. a magnetic quality on the mind, a reservoir of ki etc. 

 

I know two people, one a student of Harada lineage, and another of Sasaki (Rinzai Zen) and only one of them ever even heard about hara practice, and that was a casual mention. I have met many many Soto Zen teachers and practiced with them... no hara ever mentioned. I think this practice has largely fallen by the wayside, in the West anyway.

 

It is a practice like any other practice, skillful means for SOME student or another, but not necessarily any kind of imperative for coming to insight. Dedicated (regular, not zealous) practitioners come to realization all of the time without any practice of this kind. _/\_

[forestofclarity]

31 minutes ago, stirling said:

I think this practice has largely fallen by the wayside, in the West anyway.

 

I have gotten instructions from a Soto person that was very close to Damo's. And Meido Roshi teaches it, but his lineage also includes martial arts. He wrote a book with some instruction on it. 

 

https://www.shambhala.com/authors/g-n/meido-moore/hidden-zen.html

[stirling]

1 minute ago, forestofclarity said:

I have gotten instructions from a Soto person that was very close to Damo's. And Meido Roshi teaches it, but his lineage also includes martial arts. He wrote a book with some instruction on it. 

 

https://www.shambhala.com/authors/g-n/meido-moore/hidden-zen.html

 

Who (or perhaps just where), if you are comfortable sharing?

 

Just finished that one! Yes, I saw that. I guess I am speaking more to how widespread such teachings are. I never encountered them in over 10 years in Zen until last year, and then only anecdotal, and this is in doing retreats at a number of well-known Zen retreat centers. 

 

Meido's book is a whole other topic. A surprising amount of Vajrayana cross-over in that book, practice-wise. 

[liminal_luke]

What is the purpose of hara development or building a dantien?  I suspect that those who embrace these practices are aiming at something different from realization or awakening as it´s thought of in most Buddhist contexts.

 

A related question: Is it easier to awaken in a healthy body?

Edited 23 hours ago by liminal_luke

[Vajra Fist]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I know two people, one a student of Harada lineage, and another of Sasaki (Rinzai Zen) and only one of them ever even heard about hara practice, and that was a casual mention. I have met many many Soto Zen teachers and practiced with them... no hara ever mentioned. I think this practice has largely fallen by the wayside, in the West anyway.

 

It is a practice like any other practice, skillful means for SOME student or another, but not necessarily any kind of imperative for coming to insight. Dedicated (regular, not zealous) practitioners come to realization all of the time without any practice of this kind. _/\_

 

Really interesting! Perhaps it's more a Rinzai thing? My teacher comes from the Daitoku-ji line in the West, but I've seen it emphasised even more elsewhere, particularly in Sogen-ji under Harada Roshi and Meido Moore's Korinji. Jeff Shore (Tofukuji) also has a lot of focus on hara breathing.

 

I don't Soto as well, but I know Dosho Port (Katagiri Roshi alum) emphasised hara breathing rather than shikantaza.

 

Edited 23 hours ago by Vajra Fist

[Vajra Fist]

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

What is the purpose of hara development or building a dantien?  I suspect that those who embrace these practices are aiming at something different from realization or awakening as it´s thought of in most Buddhist contexts.

 

A related question: Is it easier to awaken in a healthy body?

 

This is an interesting read. Corey spent several years at Sogen-ji.

 

https://zenembodiment.com/2018/06/08/breathing-from-the-belly-tanden-a-great-rolling-ball/

 

I suspect that hara/tanden has an important role in the flash of insight that comes from koan practice. For instance, instructions often suggest holding the koan in the hara. 

 

[Forestgreen]

55 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

What is the purpose of hara development or building a dantien?  I suspect that those who embrace these practices are aiming at something different from realization or awakening as it´s thought of in most Buddhist contexts.

 

Some are in it for cool siddhis. 

But, the energetics is also a support for the mind, becoming a support for awakening. 

[FluffyGuardian]

I'm not sure if this is visible to you guys, but in this video of Chen Yu, Dantian is a physical, moving thing - 

I get the feeling that most people talk about Dantian in the energetic sense or the imagination sense. 

But with Chen Yu, it's also a physical, moving, observable thing. 
 

Edited 22 hours ago by FluffyGuardian

[Vajra Fist]

Here's a quote from Hakuin. I knew I remembered it from somewhere 

 

Quote

"You should draw what Mencius called the 'vast, expansive energy' down and store it in the elixir field—the reservoir of vital energy located below the navel." Hold it there over the months and years, preserving it single-mindedly, sustaining it without wavering. One morning, you will suddenly overturn the elixir furnace, and then everywhere, within and without the entire universe, will become a single immense piece of pure elixir .
When that happens, you will realize for the first time that you yourself are a genuine sage, as unborn as heaven and earth, as undying as empty space. At that moment, your efforts to refine the elixir will attain fruition.”

 

Hakuin Zenji (Yasenkanna)