"Buddhism Has Nothing To Do With Vajrayana"

[BigSkyDiamond]

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Edited August 15 by BigSkyDiamond
oooops, wrong thread

[steve]

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

Cry emoji. What's up with that? Please don't confuse the little children

 

I was simply offering Apech a little friendly kanchō

 

Spoiler

 

 

In reality, I don't know that much about the provenance or detailed history of Bön vajrayana practices. The Bön pantheon of deities and icons are different that those of Buddhism, some dating back to the early shamanistic origins of Bön that predated the subsequent intermixing with Indian Buddhism in Tibet. Bön and Buddhism have cross-pollinated quite a bit in Tibet with each tradition having its own ideas about how all of that transpired. I'm not too concerned with all of that, just grateful that I found my way to the practices and that they've done so much for me. 

[Cobie]

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, steve said:

… I'm not too concerned with all of that,

 

Sound idea imo. 
 

Quote

just grateful that I found my way to the practices and that they've done so much for me. 

 

Exactly. 

 

Edited August 15 by Cobie

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Where’s the ‘Joie de Vivre’? Is Buddhism entirely [to use a @Nungali term] ‘black school’?
 

 

 

Apparently there is a new term for this specific branch /(s)   ....

 

 

"   Rascals "Buddhists " 

 

  

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

“ The Three Schools of Magick: you have the yellow school, the black school, and the white school. …

 

The Black School 

… everything is heading towards nothing … it's best that you find some way of escaping the situation.

… the origin of the blackness itself as ignorance. 

… the situation you find yourself in is an illusion. “
 

( https://barbarouswords.substack.com/p/illuminated-magia-9-the-three-schools?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web )

 

 

 

 

I'm wondering   IF  you were going to quote that author  defining that topic  why did you snip that part ?  

 

I think this explains it better from the previous paragraph   ( and might clear up the 'Buddhist association'  ) : 

 

"  this is the black school, so you find it expressed in many different ways. And some versions of Buddhism you can see that it's the black school. Some versions of any tradition you'll find elements from these three different schools, let's put it that way. So he's not just talking specifically about Buddhism ..."

[Cobie]

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Edited September 14 by Cobie

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

From the author's description:

 

 

I think the author misunderstands the first noble truth (or maybe I do), which is that suffering exists. Or depending on the translation, reads: "The truth of suffering (dukkha)." I understand that to mean that there is a truth about the nature of suffering (and therefore exists), which the rest of the noble truths elaborates on. That's quite different from the idea that everything is suffering. 

 

From the author on the white school: 

 

 

From the "Christian" perspective, fear and sorrow can be released in the way suffering can be released, by realizing the nature of suffering in light of the true and transient nature of all things, thus making way for inner joy and peace. Sounds pretty Buddhist.

 

Isn't the failure to perceive the fact that existence is pure joy... ignorance and illusion?

 

It might not necessarily be so .... unless we adopt eh 'charitable' definition of ignorance  .   The perception  that 'existence is pure joy '  is the base to 'life being pure joy '   is a type of eudamonia  , and in some societies that is considered and even might be the 'normal state'   BUT it depends on certain qualifiers  ( eg leading a rational ,  virtuous  *   life , having communication and  direction of a tutelary Spirit , knowing and doing your life's work/ spiritual mission , ( True Will /  Khvarenah  )  , etc . 

 

Modern society and individuals have lost most of that , so in many cases 'existence becomes depression ' , to the extent the suicide rate climbs . 

 

I am not sure if ignorance or illusion is the right word here  ......  'trapped in a tragedy '  might be a more appropriate phrase . 

 

But of course none of this means that, at some time,  you are going to 'suffer'  ,  in some way ,    regardless .  

 

*  ie.  the old Greek definitions and ideas about this   Eg   'Virtue' is    excellence and 'moral virtue'  but also includes 'the ideal state of a thing' .   . .  and other extensions to the concept .

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

The defining feature of the black school? In that sense, shouldn't Buddhism be considered a "white" school? Or is Christianity actually a "black" school?

 

I guess I disagree with the categorization, and I'm not sure how it's very useful. I interpret Lao Zi, Buddha, and Christ to have been explicit that the highs and lows of joy and sorrow exist, both caused by our own inner turmoil, and that there is a way to free oneself and find equanimity by meditating on the illusory nature of the human experience from the eternal perspective.

 

Edited August 15 by Nungali

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

I was simply offering Apech a little friendly kanchō

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

"  Owww !  " 

 

 

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Edited August 15 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

Steve !   Cut it out or I will report you !  

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Indeed.  Anyway, I have decided to adopt the idea that Buddhism is ‘black school Magic’.

 

 

 

Its a point of view or interpretation .  

 

A few Buddhists I have met   (  ummm, I actually mean monks / Lama  ) seem to be walking around and happy  in life . 

[Salvijus]

On 2025-08-15 at 6:05 PM, Cobie said:

 

Which “lineage of masters” Buddhism do you practice? 

 

 

 

The one that is responsible for agni yoga. 

[Krenx]

Treat them as different religions. Like how one would treat Christianity as distinct from Islam. 

 

Because the teachings and goals for early buddhism, vs Mahayana/ tibetan/zen, later teachings are different and often contradictory.

 

That way things make more sense, and you can continue the path you choose. 

[Salvijus]

@Apech I know 

[Mark Foote]

On 8/15/2025 at 4:55 AM, Apech said:

I practice Vajrayana and it is 100% Buddhist.

 

 

I'm wondering what your criteria are on that.

I'll admit, I reject even the sermons by Gautama's disciples in the Nikayas, as I find the disciples' attempts to resolve things left unstated by the Gautamid usually introduce more contradictions than they resolve.

Maybe you are asserting the standard my father often applied:
 

That's my opinion, and it's very true!

 

 

Historical footnote--as with many of my father's sayings, he probably got it off an old radio show. I put the origin of the saying to Google AI, which said:

 

• The recorder: Tony Schwartz was an "urban folklorist" who regularly roamed the streets of Manhattan with a tape recorder to document the sounds of everyday life.
• The cabbie: During one of his recording sessions, a taxi driver said, "That's my opinion, and it's very true." The line perfectly captured a particular brand of New York City candidness, mixing a statement of personal belief with an unwavering assertion of its factual nature.
• The radio show: Schwartz used the recording for his popular WNYC radio show, Around New York (1945–1976), where it became a classic track in his collection.

 

 

Edited August 27 by Mark Foote

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I'm wondering what your criteria are on that.

I'll admit, I reject even the sermons by Gautama's disciples in the Nikayas, as I find the disciples' attempts to resolve things left unstated by the Gautamid usually introduce more contradictions than they resolve.

Maybe you are asserting the standard my father often applied:
 

That's my opinion, and it's very true!

 

 

Historical footnote--as with many of my father's sayings, he probably got it off an old radio show. I put the origin of the saying to Google AI, which said:

 

• The recorder: Tony Schwartz was an "urban folklorist" who regularly roamed the streets of Manhattan with a tape recorder to document the sounds of everyday life.
• The cabbie: During one of his recording sessions, a taxi driver said, "That's my opinion, and it's very true." The line perfectly captured a particular brand of New York City candidness, mixing a statement of personal belief with an unwavering assertion of its factual nature.
• The radio show: Schwartz used the recording for his popular WNYC radio show, Around New York (1945–1976), where it became a classic track in his collection.

 

 

 

The four seals I guess.

[Mark Foote]

On 8/27/2025 at 3:04 PM, Apech said:

 

The four seals I guess.
 

 

That part, 100%, yes.
 

[GreytoWhite]

Vajrayana is highly influenced not only by Shaivic tantra in Northern India but also the Greek and Zoroastrian practices of modern Afghanistan/Pakistan/Tajikistan. Lama Glenn Mullin has stated that the Nyingma school was brought in from primarily Persian texts that were translated into Tibetan. Bonpo's later iteration seems to have come from Tajikistan nearby. We also see proto-Vajrayana preserved in the Shingon school of Japanese Buddhism. Manichaeism seems to have been an influence as well with many calling Mani the Buddha of Light.

[bradley]

5 hours ago, GreytoWhite said:

Lama Glenn Mullin has stated that the Nyingma school was brought in from primarily Persian texts that were translated into Tibetan.

 

interesting.  nyingma was "founded" (if that is such a thing) at the height of the abbasid caliphate. the persian world at that time was highly academic and more liberal that most would think. as I understand, most of western scientific knowledge--medicine, astronomy, mathematics, etc.--has its roots in the ancient persian world, although our history books have overwritten much of their discoveries with western names. imagine trying to do multiplication tables with roman numerals, instead of the arabic, base-ten ones we use today. al-khwarizmi, who wrote the treatise  al-jabr (i.e. "algebra"), was an interesting character. 

 

the extent that the buhddist knowledge was brought in from persian texts (rather than sanskrit) does not mean that they were not buddhist texts, since the abbasid academics would have translated and studied those texts. buhddism was widespread in the califate, and promoted in certain castes at different times.  perhaps the abbisid-buhddists had their own treatises and understandings, although I suspect the parchment they were written on has long decayed, or was destroyed by the mogols. you have to wonder how much ancient knowledge was lost in the destruction of the baghdad library.

 

one thing is for sure, the ancient world was highly interconnected, much more than most would think.  so it should not be surprising that people were sharing ideas, methods and techniques across cultures, and that for a particular school of thought, that there is usually no one, single dogmatic source for the knowledge. 

 

the extent that vajrayana borrowed knowledge and techniques from cultures other than ancient india, does not mean that it is not buhddism, nor impinge on its validity as a course of study.       

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, bradley said:

one thing is for sure, the ancient world was highly interconnected, much more than most would think.  so it should not be surprising that people were sharing ideas, methods and techniques across cultures, and that for a particular school of thought, that there is usually no one, single dogmatic source for the knowledge. 

 

 

I would offer a geographical view point.  Tibet is the most inaccessible part of the world.  While it certainly had exchanges with the outside, but would it have been so narrowly restricted.  

[old3bob]

 

a basically and near perfect teacher and doctrine does not necessarily make for a basically and near perfect student that is looking for such, and who once they GET their hands on same and wrap their heads around it they then will be in the ballpark of "enlightenment"...  for enlightenment is right under our noses and is not found out there somewhere or with near perfect memorization of doctrine from someone or school,  although such pointers can be of great use while on the wheel.

 

their enlightenment is theirs, not ours via only intellectual or partial knowledge of same.

 

[bradley]

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Tibet is the most inaccessible part of the world. 

 

granted it is an inaccessible part of the world, I dont think they were as isolated culturally as you might think, particularly in the 600-1000 CE timeframe when buddhism took over.  at that time, tibet was a massive empire, which included the trade arteries through the tarim basin, an important juncture in the silk road and abutting the abbisids, as well as into india.  they would have had access to a lot of cultural interchange at that time (otherwise, they'd still be practicing bön...)    

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Empire