elephant in the room

[Cobie]

 

51 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… what the DDJ is all about …

Hello my friend CD, always nice to disagree with you. 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Cobie

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

AI (Artifical Intelligence) is not a credible or reliable source of information.  It not only has (a) built-in inaccuracy, but (b) the inaccuracy increases and grows and gets worse over time.  Inaccuracies and mistakes and errors not only appear, they propagate and spread and multiply over time.  When information is not available, AI invents false answers and fabricates data and sources and information including URL fabrication.  

 

For instnace, research at Columbia University shows AI cites incorrect sources 60% of the time.  (Researchers ran 1,600 inquiries across 8 different platforms. )  The premium paid versons delivered incorrect information more often then their free counterparts.

 

AI can not interpret or distinguish between what is correct or incorrect information

 

"As of 2023, a typical AI model isn't assessing whether the information it provides is correct. Its goal when it receives a prompt is to generate what it thinks is the most likely string of words to answer that prompt. Sometimes this results in a correct answer, but sometimes it doesn’t – and the AI cannot interpret or distinguish between the two. It’s up to you to make the distinction. 

AI can be wrong in multiple ways:

• It can give the wrong answer 
• It can omit information by mistake
• It can make up completely fake people, events, and articles
• It can mix truth and fiction

 

AI is "just mimicking reasoning, rather than actually performing that reasoning.”

Reliability is just not there with AI.  In March an AI tool correctly identified prime numbers from a list 96.7% of the time.  Three months later in June of the same year, the same AI platform, the same task, the same list, but only 2.7% were correctly identified.  AI is simply not reliable.

 

 

 

source

article 2025 "AI search engines cite incorrect news sources at an alarming 60% rate"

article  2023, University of Maryland Research Guide, "What does AI Get Wrong"

article   2023, Scientific American, "Yes AI Models Can Get Worse Over Time"

 

 

 

 

and aside from that it outright lies .... and then lies about it when tying to explain why it just lied . 

 

It learnt from people , after all    

 

It  is  just used  above , as a summary .  However  I am not ignorant and don't go just looking up AI to get personal views affirmed .  I actually have studied it   for over 50 years as part of anthropology   you seem to protesting in some roundabout way here ..... so  here you go  : 

 

R. A . Wilson - all through his works  , eg.

 

“Obviously, under primitive planetary conditions — finite space and finite resources — the illth was perceived as necessary to protect the wealth. Territorial politics are much the same among domesticated primates as among other mammals; the primates are just smarter at building more omni-lethal weapons faster. This was originally a survival trait, an Evolutionary Relative Success, because primates are born without the physiological, inbuilt weaponry (lethal teeth, claws, horns etc.) of other mammals.”

― Robert Anton Wilson, Prometheus Rising

other sources ;

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32160562/

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0169534715002499

 

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/mother-nature-network-11-04-2012.html

 

https://www.ssoar.info/ssoar/handle/document/45572

 

https://antigonejournal.com/2021/03/political-animals/

 

 

https://www.nokomis.com.au/product/new-books/mammals/primate/chimpanzee-politics-power-and-sex-among-apes/

 

 

Its a 'thing ' .... ya know !  

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, doc benway said:

For what it's worth, I feel a lot of empathy for what people are going through right now regarding current events and politics.

I am feeling a lot of negative emotions on a daily basis and do my best to bring it into my spiritual practice. 

We are living through unprecedented times and events and I wish there was a way we could offer each other more support here.

Debating current and events and politics has proven not to work out well here, but perhaps there's a way we could discuss the impact they are having on us and support each other in dealing with them as effectively as possible. To some degree, I think this thread is having somewhat of a positive effect and I appreciate everyone who added their comments and the mods keeping it open so far.

 

It was ..... until OLDBOB got suspended .  . .   or restricted  .... or ... what is it that you actually did to him  ?  ...hang on .... 

'account restricted '  ... what does that mean ? 

 

It reads like SpaceX calling a clear  failure and explosion an 'unscheduled emergency disassembly ' .  

 

I think any Daobum that cared could have found a different way to relate to him .  

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I also feel empathy for what people are going through right now and think it would be great if we could support each other without arguing about the merits of any given view.  My mom marched in a recent "No Kings" event, her first political protest in her more than eighty years.  She sent me a picture of herself out in the sunshine, smiling and waving a tiny American flag.  She said it felt good to be there, in the world amongst so many other people who felt as she did.  I was happy for her.

 

Although I´m wary of much that is going on in the US politically these days, my own politics has slid somewhat rightward since Covid and I wouldn´t of wanted to march in No Kings myself.  But that doesn´t mean I don´t care about the thoughts and feelings of those who disagree with me.  Those who disagree with me are not "idiots."  In fact, many of them are smart and well-informed, kind and thoughtful -- some of the best people I know. 

 

I gather from another thread that the mods are currently debating Old3bobs status in the forum.  He consistently brings up political topics, even though it´s the current policy of the board not to do so.  It´s not my place to comment on his future here, but one thing´s clear: he´s a person that cares about the state of the world and he´s hurting.  I think so many of us are hurting.

 

I´m not much of a Buddhist but sometimes a Buddhist saying fits the moment.  May all beings be free from suffering.

 

 

 

be careful .....   if 'someone' reports you for  all that current political agenda stuff up there  you might find your 'account  restricted '  . 

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

be careful .....   if 'someone' reports you for  all that current political agenda stuff up there  you might find your 'account  restricted '  . 

 

Hopefully I´ve stayed on the right side of the law, but if "someone" -- you or anybody else -- thinks this post (or any other politically-themed post of mine) crosses the line, I´m happy to edit it out.  

Edited 10 hours ago by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

Oh you will be safe ... because you are liked . 

 

Old3bob ?   Old and cantankerous  ... extremely out of fashion !    -  with some . 

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Hopefully I´ve stayed on the right side of the law, but if "someone" -- you or anybody else -- thinks this post (or any other politically-themed post of mine) crosses the line, I´m happy to edit it out.  

 

 

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Oh you will be safe ... because you are liked . 

 

Old3bob ?   Old and cantankerous  ... extremely out of fashion !    -  with some . 

 

Being a mod is like having hemorrhoids you tend to sit on problems till they burst out and make you feel sore.  Even trips to the doctors can leave you feeling degraded ... unless the doctor likes you that is.  Then it's all ok.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

...

Edited 1 hour ago by liminal_luke

[forestofclarity]

This forum (and others online) sometimes makes me incredibly sad. This is a forum of dedicated spiritual practitioners and yet we cannot get along or act like adults in the most simplistic sense: i.e., refrain from insults, refrain from trolling others, try not to hurt people, or follow a few simple rules. Creating a post takes time and can be edited or removed. Everything here is entirely intentional. 

 

So if this is the best we can do, well, no wonder the world is in the shape it's in. 

 

 

 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

i need to find the post to quote it, but it was something docB said a while ago that I agree with.

We are having a positive effect.  What we write and say and do does have a positive effect. 

 

 

here it is, i found it

 

8 hours ago, doc benway said:

I think this thread is having somewhat of a positive effect and I appreciate everyone who added their comments and the mods keeping it open so far.

 

Edited 8 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

i remember reading somewhere that when planes are flying on auto pilot they are "going in the wrong direction" something like 95% of the time, and they stay on course through a near constant process of "auto correcting" when they deviate off course.  So if we mess up then we are nudged in the direction to keep us on track.

 

"

"I am told that the automatic pilot in an airplane does not work by locking onto a course and stick­ing to it.  Instead, it steers back and forth over the path of an assigned course and makes the neces­sary corrections when it senses that it has strayed. In reality, the auto pilot is on course only 5 or 10% of the time. The other 90 or 95% of the time, it is off course and correcting for its deviation.  I, too, must make continuous adjustments.  I have stopped expecting myself to be perfectly on course. I am bound to make plenty of mistakes, but I am learning to accept mistakes as an inevitable part of the adventure of living."

 

---from Daily Reader

[BigSkyDiamond]

the other bit that comes to mind is that we "create our own weather" that is the climate around us which we experience at any given moment.  Happiness, contentment, peace of mind, calm, stillness, those are an "inside job" for me.  The emotional climate that I experience, well that thermostat is set and adjusted by me, and not by anyone or anything "out there". (including people, places, institutions, things)  

 

For me, i find that very reassuring and calming in and of itself.  It feels more manageable.

 

Edited 8 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Master Logray]

16 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

On what is this opinion based?  Could you please give some concrete examples from actual chapters in the DDJ.

 

 

 

The idea on how to be a good ruler is sprinkled everywhere.  Perhaps Chapter 57 and 65 could be examples.

[BigSkyDiamond]

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

The idea on how to be a good ruler is sprinkled everywhere.  Perhaps Chapter 57 and 65 could be examples.

 

i read those as how we rule ourself, a guide for how to govern our own life.

sacred texts are first and foremost a guide to self-development.

As one reviewer puts it, " The central thing the Tao Te Ching asks us to be aware of is not the world, but our self."

 

sample translations verse 65 and 57.

And I look forward to Cobie's input on what the Chinese text actually says.

 

"Therefore, it is said:
"Those who implemented the Tao
Did not use it to make the people shrewd;
Rather, they used it to make them simple."
The reason why the people are difficult to rule
Is that they are crafty.
Therefore, using craft to govern a state
Is a pest to the state;
Using noncraft to govern a state
Is a blessing to the state.
Constantly remember: these two constitute a guideline;
Constantly remembering this guideline
Is called a deep and remote virtue.
The deep and remote virtue
Is deep indeed, remote indeed;
And, though contrary to all things,
Will eventually reach Grand Harmony."
-  Translated by Chichung Huang, Chapter 65

 

 

"Govern the kingdom by the normal way.
Fight the battle by the unexpected way.
And one can win the world without using force.
How do I know this is so?
By the following:
When there are too many restrictions and regulations, people become poor.
When there are too many weapons, the kingdom is in disarray.
When there are too many tricks, bizarre things happen.
When there are too many decrees, the crime rate increases.
This is why the sage says:
"I do not force my way, and people live peacefully.
I keep quiet, and people live normally.
I do not interfere, and people become rich.
I do not covet anything, and people would be honest." 

-  Translated by Thomas Zhang, Chapter 57

 

Edited 4 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

Quote

... we could discuss the impact they are having on us and support each other ...

 

The frontpages here are shocking to me, seems to me it's now all about the threat of war and the need to increase spending on arms. To be honest I am not coping well with it at all, so I have decided to just withdraw in my own little bubble. 

 

 

Edited 1 minute ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

5 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

... first and foremost a guide to self-development. ...

 

Yes. In Laozi's time custom was to start with what's most important, and the DDJ starts with 4 chapters on self-development. 

 

5 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

.. The central thing the Tao Te Ching asks us to be aware of is not the world, but our self.

 

Yes. And not just the DDJ; it was the culture at the time.