Annnon Posted Sunday at 02:12 AM How does this "karma thing" works? I've seen people saying that it's not something mystical like "do this and you will pay in thir or in the next life I still don't get it lmao I do believe in reincarnation and all but this karma stuff is weird So if I do bad things in this life, I will pay in my next life? But if this doesn't exist, or if it doesn't work the way we think it does, so one can do harm to others and never pay the "justice from the universe" unless he got caught and judged by the law of man? So what's the point? I'll just throw my car into a bus and never face any karmic consequences in this nor in the next life. My "karma" will be being caught by law and going to jail. So karma is nothing mystical as we think? I'm not sure if I made myself clear but maybe you could understand my point. So in other words, do we face consequences beyond the law of man or we are just random things doing random things in this world? If I throw my car into a bus and kill xx number of people, will I face any consequences bsesides the "worldly" ones? If so, how can you prove me karma does exist, what did you learn that who is your spiritual teacher, or there's nothing magical to it and karma is just nothing mystical, no "judgement from god" or "judgement from the universe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted Sunday at 03:13 AM (edited) My experimental observations support the following propositions: - every planet, sun and galaxy, each exists within an entity (logos) that uses that as its body of "incarnation" - each Logos is sensitive to the species, energies, relationships and intents within its body - where events/actions/intents within that body are contrary to the proper unfoldment of that body within the greater cosmic system, the Logos feels discomfort - the body of the Logos contains intelligences that deal with the difficult energies. These intelligences have various cultural names such as Lipika Lords and Recording Angel - the Lords of Karma put pressure on the sources of disturbances - using entities on various planes. Hence sayings such as: As you sow, so shall you reap. - the pressures can be classified as personal or group, and by the level of the Logos on which the discomfort is occurring. - personal karma is harder to avoid as the person needs to learn - group karma can be redirected to other lines of least resistance, on request by a suitable entity - sometimes the lessons have been learned by the appropriate parties but the karmic energy/pressure is still present. Usually removal only requires a polite specific request by a suitable entity Edited Sunday at 03:15 AM by Lairg 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted Sunday at 03:19 AM (edited) Long ago I thought that automobile crashes were karmic. At some time I thought that I had no personal karma so did not understand how I could have had multiple youthful crashes So I asked about that in meditation and instantly they replied - apparently not needing to consider the matter: You will observe that everything you hit was stationary at the time. That is not karma. That is carelessness. These days my mind is quieter so I drive slower than the rest of the traffic rather than faster Edited Sunday at 03:21 AM by Lairg 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tommy Posted Sunday at 03:53 AM (edited) 1 hour ago, Annnon said: How does this "karma thing" works? I've seen people saying that it's not something mystical like "do this and you will pay in thir or in the next life I still don't get it lmao I do believe in reincarnation and all but this karma stuff is weird So if I do bad things in this life, I will pay in my next life? Karma isn't an agency for justice. Justice is more of a human construct. It's boundaries are made from moral ideas and judgements. Karma is not so easy a subject to discuss or explain. But, in simple terms, whatever your intent when committing an action, it has an affect on your future. Some say it is like planting an apple seed and an apple tree will grow. So, nothing arises from nothing. Everything is dependent on something else. One action creates the next. So, commit an act of evil intent, then, that will create forces which need to be played out. Will it happen in this lifetime or the next? I do not have that information. But, I believe that it will play out. How? I do not know. Will it be justice? My belief is that when Karma is created that it must resolve itself. What is the resolution? If one killed someone or something then maybe it is to learn how it is to be killed? Personally, I like to think that Karma will present itself in a way to provide the person who created the Karma to learn something that is needed to move forward on the spiritual path. It could be pleasant or painful. I just don't know. But, if one doesn't learn the lesson then doomed to repeat it again and again. Now, of course this isn't what most people believe Karma to be. It is just something I believe. You have yours thinking that there is justice and wishing there be a cosmic agency that dispenses that justice. You could be right?? IDK. Note: Karma does exist in my world. Edited Sunday at 03:55 AM by Tommy 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Sunday at 04:17 AM (edited) 2 hours ago, Annnon said: How does this "karma thing" works? I've seen people saying that it's not something mystical like "do this and you will pay in thir or in the next life I still don't get it lmao I do believe in reincarnation and all but this karma stuff is weird So if I do bad things in this life, I will pay in my next life? One view is that it means ; you do shit , you will suffer . It can be instant or a bit delayed . If you piss in your water , then you have to suffer with polluted water . If you treat people bad in your community that is disruptive and you now have to live in a disrupted community or even if , in a community, people are over merciful, about other people doing shit , then it will get worse . Life is intimately and complexly connected , your actions may have wide implications . Quote But if this doesn't exist, or if it doesn't work the way we think it does, so one can do harm to others and never pay the "justice from the universe" unless he got caught and judged by the law of man? So what's the point? I'll just throw my car into a bus and never face any karmic consequences in this nor in the next life. But you don't do you ? Maybe that's because you are more intelligent than a person that needs 'scary kid stories' to engender correct social behavior ? - the same thing can be said for religions , of course. Quote My "karma" will be being caught by law and going to jail. No, that is your 'punishment ' . I prefer certain Japanese ideas about it Look at this definition : " In the Japanese context, "karma" generally refers to the Buddhist concept of action, specifically intentional actions, and their consequences." Like I said above , even as simple as keeping your water clean . Its about being aware of what you do NOW and what consequences that will have later . Its about being mindful of your 'place of interaction' with the world . " It's understood as the principle that our deeds, words, and thoughts, driven by intention, lead to future results, " and of course , being a religion or philosophy that ascribes to the principle of reincarnation , it was considered that it was extended to " including future rebirths, according to the cycle of rebirth (samsara). While the word "karma" itself is a transliteration from Sanskrit, the concept is deeply ingrained in Japanese Buddhist traditions. " For example they might call 'co-incidence ' 'karma' ..... some unseen connections between people and events Quote So karma is nothing mystical as we think? I'm not sure if I made myself clear but maybe you could understand my point. So in other words, do we face consequences beyond the law of man or we are just random things doing random things in this world? Being mindful as I described above is virtually the opposite of doing 'just random things in the world ' . But yes, many seem to be doing 'just random things' although influenced by other forces ( and those other forces might be those that stop or avoid them from being mindful of consequences ) . Quote If I throw my car into a bus and kill xx number of people, will I face any consequences bsesides the "worldly" ones? If so, how can you prove me karma does exist, Okay . Piss in a bottle of water ..... and then drink it . I think you will get my point . Quote what did you learn that who is your spiritual teacher, Eh ? How did I learn it ? various texts from various religions and looking for comparisons of terms and themes ( Ie. same or similar idea from another culture with their word for it ) over a long period of time. Various teachers in different traditions , 'tutelary spirits' and 'life experience ' . Quote or there's nothing magical to it and karma is just nothing mystical, no "judgement from god" or "judgement from the universe There is something magical to everything (various butterfly wings ) But 'judging' is something Man does , not 'God' or the 'Universe ' ... it might 'enact' a law ( of physics ) ... I feel we should have got beyond the consciousness now , of thinking or believing that if a meteor crashes into a planet , the planet is being 'punished ' . Edited Sunday at 04:26 AM by Nungali 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Sunday at 04:21 AM 59 minutes ago, Lairg said: Long ago I thought that automobile crashes were karmic. At some time I thought that I had no personal karma so did not understand how I could have had multiple youthful crashes So I asked about that in meditation and instantly they replied - apparently not needing to consider the matter: You will observe that everything you hit was stationary at the time. That is not karma. That is carelessness. These days my mind is quieter so I drive slower than the rest of the traffic rather than faster Sounds like your car - ma crashed into your dogma . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted Sunday at 04:23 AM Karma is like "heal the land and be healed". Or "poison the land, and poison yourself in the process". It deals with the interconnectedness of all living things and all people. In some cases, the way people treat themselves is a mirror reflection of how they treat others. In order to treat ourselves more fairly, we must learn to treat others fairly. Treating others better was what allowed me to treat myself better. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted Sunday at 11:56 AM (edited) karma is also like forms of math, for instance if one knows something does not compute but keeps doing it then the equation of karma will get more and more unbalanced. One can burn a fingertip and learn about fire instead of burning their whole hand to basically learn or compute the same thing. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do..." but some know more than others as to what they do yet still keep doing it, thus I'd say there are different levels of forgiveness per a lawful equations. (although Grace is beyond "regular" computations) Edited Sunday at 12:04 PM by old3bob 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted Sunday at 03:59 PM It is actually very simple. Karma is your story about the world, and the character that you believe you are that inhabits it. Your story is constructed out of events that have already happened and whether you decided you liked them or not. Your story can be about failure, triumph, being wronged, or being right. It is the story of your player-character in the world, and your struggle for the past or the future to be somehow different. This is obviously insanity, and a waste of time, since you cannot change the past, or ever inhabit the future in this moment. If, in this moment, you decided to STOP telling the story of "self" and other, STOP the action of struggling with things that have already happened and are impossible to change, STOP telling yourself the story of a future that you cling to, you could stop generating karma. In meditation, I don't mean a technique like watching the breath here but rather where the mind is still and silent, does not generate karma - there is no-self present in meditation to generate it. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Annnon Posted Sunday at 05:35 PM (edited) Thanks for all the answers This topic is interesting, I will use an example: Imagine a man or woman, this person, even if he or she tries so hard to be in a relationship with someone, they can't make it. It doesn't matter, everytime something bad will happen, be it a misunderstanding or people simply lose interest in that person. What are your thoughts in this scenario? To me, there seems to be something going on which I can't explain, and then here comes the idea of karma, maybe this person was so bad in a past lifetime that now he or she can't get intimate with anyone. Does this makes sense or it's just a dumb way of understanding karma? Another example: Someone can't get a job, or everytime that person gets a job something happen and he or she is fired, or that person can't make money and have the barely minimum to survive. Does this means that this person have something like a "money Karma", maybe he/she robbed a lot in his past lifetime. How can you explain some people have so much "luck" in finding jobs, having money and others struggle with it? How do you explain how some people feel like they were born for such jobs and making money from an early age, while others may take a lifetime to make it? Just a coincidence? Nothing related to something "spiritual" or "karma"? Edited Sunday at 05:36 PM by Annnon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted Sunday at 09:24 PM (edited) 3 hours ago, Annnon said: How can you explain some people have so much "luck" in finding jobs, having money and others struggle with it? There are many more intelligent species than those with physical bodies. They have their own interests/missions to propagate - often using humans Once a fellow asked me about a spirit that would come in his meditation. I had a look and said: It is one of those spirits used in medieval times to find lost treasure. He replied that all his life he had won raffles and lotteries Edited Sunday at 09:26 PM by Lairg 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tommy Posted yesterday at 02:11 AM 8 hours ago, Annnon said: Just a coincidence? Nothing related to something "spiritual" or "karma"? You are looking for a reason why good or bad things happens to someone. To either give good reason or blame it on coincidence? I won't say that most people aren't born with the ability to see such things rather that most people do not see the inter-rated(ness) of things. Some have said to see where you are now is to look at where you have been. To see where you will go is to look at where you are now. And so, I have no vision to give you an answer to satisfy your need for understanding. But, I have always gone by the saying that if one does good then good will come to them. However, my actions were not always to gain favor or goodness to come my way. I will guess that you will make your own truth about Karma. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted yesterday at 05:56 AM 12 hours ago, Annnon said: Just a coincidence? Nothing related to something "spiritual" or "karma"? Beliefs help us make sense of our experiences. Personally I like to perform experiments to test beliefs. The problem is that wishing to choose beliefs is dangerous even today "a heretic," from Greek hairetikos "able to choose" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Master Logray Posted yesterday at 12:32 PM On 5/25/2025 at 11:53 AM, Tommy said: Karma isn't an agency for justice. Justice is more of a human construct. It's boundaries are made from moral ideas and judgements. Karma is not so easy a subject to discuss or explain. But, in simple terms, whatever your intent when committing an action, it has an affect on your future. Some say it is like planting an apple seed and an apple tree will grow. So, nothing arises from nothing. Everything is dependent on something else. One action creates the next. So, commit an act of evil intent, then, that will create forces which need to be played out. Will it happen in this lifetime or the next? I do not have that information. But, I believe that it will play out. How? I do not know. Will it be justice? My belief is that when Karma is created that it must resolve itself. What is the resolution? If one killed someone or something then maybe it is to learn how it is to be killed? Personally, I like to think that Karma will present itself in a way to provide the person who created the Karma to learn something that is needed to move forward on the spiritual path. It could be pleasant or painful. I just don't know. But, if one doesn't learn the lesson then doomed to repeat it again and again. Now, of course this isn't what most people believe Karma to be. It is just something I believe. You have yours thinking that there is justice and wishing there be a cosmic agency that dispenses that justice. You could be right?? IDK. Note: Karma does exist in my world. The concept of Karma has a major appeal. It is a remedial and fair justice system, especially when it is linked to reincarnation. Otherwise this concept would have been buried under numerous obscure teachings. But most of the eastern cultures that put Karma on their lips, do not really believe in it. What everyone sees everyday is that this system don't work. Bad are not punished and good are not rewarded. And severity of the action is not proportional. Long ago a Taoist master had written, Master Qiu and some others had saved tens of thousands of lives from Mongols, but there was no promotion to become an immortal due to these acts. If a person kills 10 millions persons, what can the heaven or the hell do? has him killed in 20 millions reincarnations? So I doubt this concept. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tommy Posted yesterday at 04:00 PM (edited) 3 hours ago, Master Logray said: If a person kills 10 millions persons, what can the heaven or the hell do? has him killed in 20 millions reincarnations? So I doubt this concept. Reincarnation may happen to that person but who knows what form that may take? Will it be in this world or one of the other planes of existence? Will it be like heaven or a very nasty hell? IDK. But, please believe what you like. It is all grist for the mill. Edited yesterday at 04:01 PM by Tommy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted yesterday at 04:52 PM The 'I' lives in a karmic body. But its inherent nature is the same to that which gave birth to it. Look at a plant. It is only there due to the causes and conditions that preceded it. Look at a thought or emotion. It is only there due to the causes and conditions that preceded it. Now look at the nature of your own mind. It has always been there without causes and conditions. Quote Sixteen Empty yourself of everything. Let the mind become still. The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source. Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature. The way of nature is unchanging. Knowing constancy is insight. Not knowing constancy leads to disaster. Knowing constancy, the mind is open. With an open mind, you will be openhearted. Being openhearted, you will act royally. Being royal, you will attain the divine. Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao. Being at one with the Tao is eternal. And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away. The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu Source: The Complete Tao Te Ching Translated by Gia-Fu Feng (馮家福 Feng Jia-fu, 1919–1985) and Jane English (1942–) Vintage Books, 1989 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted 20 hours ago (edited) 4 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said: The 'I' lives in a karmic body. But its inherent nature is the same to that which gave birth to it. It seems to me that all substance on every plane is part of a much greater cosmic entity. If so, every body is karmic. This includes the rocks and trees and clouds I was once given a blue crystalline rock. It looked very pretty but my house spirit objected to it - because of the dark spirit flowing through it. So I was going to throw it in the creek over the back fence but the creek elemental did not want it. I walked down the road past some vacant treed lots, and none wanted it. Eventually I went some distance down stream on the creek and there was a lagoon that was indifferent so I threw the stone in, noting the place in case I had to move it again. It seems that all substance is connected to cosmic purpose Edited 20 hours ago by Lairg 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted 20 hours ago Karma for me is simply a manifestation of interconnectedness. Every being, every pebble, every action, every universe - all inextricably interrelated. The metaphor of Indra's Net gives a sense of how complex and pervasive it is. This is why it can be difficult to see the effects or causes of karma clearly in our relatively brief time in this life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Foote Posted 19 hours ago (edited) On 5/24/2025 at 7:12 PM, Annnon said: How does this "karma thing" works? ... So in other words, do we face consequences beyond the law of man or we are just random things doing random things in this world? If I throw my car into a bus and kill xx number of people, will I face any consequences bsesides the "worldly" ones? If so, how can you prove me karma does exist, what did you learn that who is your spiritual teacher, or there's nothing magical to it and karma is just nothing mystical, no "judgement from god" or "judgement from the universe I'm also fascinated and mystified by the notion of karma. The thing I find truly unique about the teachings of Gautama the Buddha are his descriptions of the states of concentration. In many lectures, he described his enlightenment as associated with what he termed the "fourth concentration", a state wherein volitive activity in inhalation and exhalation ceases. Now the notion of cessation of volition in inhalation and exhalation is odd. Most folks actually don't exercise volition in the movements of inhaling and exhaling. There are yoga exercises where things are done with the movement of breath willfully, that's true, but most people who practice seated meditation (a person "comes to be sitting down" before the fourth concentration) are not doing anything willfully with the movement of breath. In my experience, the fourth concentration is about activity of the body solely by virtue of the location of consciousness. If the activity of the body is not solely by virtue of the location of consciousness, then there is some element of habit or volition involved in the activity of the body, in the posture or carriage, and that can affect the movement of breath. Not to mention that when we exercise will to move the body, we pretty directly affect the movement of breath. Gautama's practice was to sit down cross-legged and turn that around, so that no matter where consciousness took place in his body, the activity of the body was by virtue of the location of consciousness and the location alone. In many of Gautama's lectures, he described how he "applied and bent down" his mind while in the fourth concentration to "insight that comes from knowledge". He saw that the body was impermanent, but that consciousness was bound to the body "like a jewel fastened on a thread". Subsequently he experienced a number of psychic phenomena, like a mind-made body, various miraculous abilities (I suspect accomplished with the mind-made body). He also recalled past births, and future arisings, and how they were in accord with the volitive acts of the individual (I'm taking all this from Digha Nikaya 2). Gautama's enlightenment, he later made clear, was not so much a matter of his having achieved states of concentration (even though he achieved a cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving, something his teachers had not attained), as of these insights which came in conjunction with his concentration. Moreover, in one sermon he made clear that it was possible to attain even final state of concentration without becoming enlightened (MN 70). Enlightenment, he said, resulted in the complete destruction of the cankers, and anything that did not result in the complete destruction of the cankers was not enlightenment. The three “cankers” were said to be three cravings: “craving for the life of sense”, “craving for becoming”, and “craving for not-becoming” (DN 22; PTS vol. ii p 340). When the cankers are “destroyed”, the roots of the craving for sense-pleasures, the roots of the craving “to continue, to survive, to be” (tr. “bhava”, Bhikkyu Sujato), and the roots of the craving not “to be” (the craving for the ignorance of being) are destroyed. (One Way or Another) What has passed for enlightenment in the centuries after the Gautamid is something different: ... activity solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness, the hallmark of the fourth concentration, has been conveyed by demonstration in some branches of Buddhism for millennia. The transmission of a central part of the teaching through such conveyance, and the certification of that transmission by the presiding teacher, is regarded by some schools as the only guarantee of the authenticity of a teacher. The teachers so authenticated have in many cases disappointed their students, when circumstances revealed that the teacher’s cankers had not been completely destroyed. Furthermore, some schools appear to have certified transmission without the conveyance that has kept the tradition alive, perhaps for the sake of the continuation of the school. (ibid) My conclusions: Not possible to see whether the karma that Gautama described exists without experiencing psychic phenomena, beginning with a mind-made body; The enlightenment Gautama experienced in connection with his ability to experience psychic phenomena is a different thing from what currently passes as enlightenment; It's possible to practice the mindfulness that was Gautama's way of living without experiencing psychic phenomena (he described that way of living as "something peaceful in itself, and a pleasant way of living besides", and said it was his way of living before enlightenment as well as after). That last says that I don't need to know whether Gautama's insights into the coming and going of beings according to their deeds are based in reality, in order to benefit from his teaching. Edited 19 hours ago by Mark Foote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted 16 hours ago In the Hindu tradition the human has much more capacity than usually considered - including many senses on many planes The 12 Senses are five sense organs, five motor organs and Manas and Buddhi. She dissolves the 12 senses in Ego or Ahamkara. She is AnAkhyA, indefinable power in relation to PramAna, the means of Knowledge. She goes beyond the PramAna paradigm, where the consuming 12 Saktis abide. The 12 senses have lost their name and individuality upon dissolution in Ego. https://www.thehinduportal.com/2016/03/12-aspects-of-kali-of-light.html#gsc.tab=0 We already know of senses on higher planes including: - sense of purpose - sense of justice - sense of time As we acquire higher plane substance and form that into sense organs, we become functional on those levels and start to interact consciously with higher intelligences including those that supervise the out-working of karma Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 13 hours ago "Those that supervise the outworking of karma . " - Interesting . Over time and the development of human consciousness the concept of these ' those that supervise ' ... has changed and developed ; Fortunately ideas about judgement (like considering you failed so will have to be punished with eternal damnation , or having your heart town out and fed to a crocolepapotomous ) are transitioning from a concept that 'judgement' needs to be made along with reward or punishment and towards a concept of adjustment ... where one sees what was not 'in balance' and 'tries again' while holding the previous lesson 'in mind ' ... thus gradually moving forward each time . of course the concept of reincarnation fits in nicely with this . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites