Do people truly have free will?

[Lairg]

On 5/12/2025 at 1:56 PM, stirling said:

My teacher likes to say, "We are not in charge of the world... what we ARE in charge of is how we RESPOND". 

 

A generally excellent proposition.  So are there preconditions for responding rather than reacting?

 

Do reactionary humans not have much free will?

 

Even today many media interviewers ask:  What's your reaction to ....?

 

 

[Nungali]

 

That's a good point  Lairg  ! 

 

The essential difference is between    water , the emotions and ruler of reactions   and air ,  the intellectual capacity and seat of response . 

 

The base emotions and drives seem pushed and pulled by  fiery and watery reactions and drives   ruled by Mars and Venus on the base line  while Mercury  takes the  mediated and responsive position above that plane, at the apex  forming a 'triangle' around the  Moon (representing   the internal dynamics of the unconscious psyche ) with Mercury linking out of that 'hell'  as 'psychopomp' enabling a link to the 'Superconscience'. 

 

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Edited May 24 by Nungali

[Master Logray]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

He isn't considered 'Bad' in Mongolia ! 

 

Was Lord Nelson bad ?   Was  Francis Drake bad ?   How about Magellan ? 

 

I think we need to look at the severity.   These guys could be bad but how bad could they be, comparing with their "peers"?  American slavery was bad, but how bad?  These few guys?   Put these in perspective with other atrocities, then these are pale by comparison.

 

Genghis massacred 67 millions Chinese (then Sung Empire), most of these were done in the most brutal and barbaric manner.   The Sung Empire had 93 million people.   In early Mongol dynasty in China, only 8.8 millions left, attrition of 91%.   Everyone was slave in those days.  They were treated worse than livestock, let say livestock might have names, the survivors were only allowed a birth date name and things like first night of wedding the bride was to be presented to the Mongols.    Si Chuan Province where a lot of Taoist Masters appear, only had 3-5% of the population left.    This was not only in China, Persia also lost 90% of the population and many other cities with their people were totally destroyed, Samarkan, Baghdad....   Another example would be Cambodia, in terms of percentage.   

 

[Paradoxal]

11 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

But according to you only america is guilty.

 

France and britain are "innocent".

Where have I said that? LOL

[Paradoxal]

11 hours ago, Ascetic said:

Founder sounds too grandiose. But maybe I should see myself that way.

Be very careful going down that path mate.

 

Always question every experience you have, especially when dealing in the esoteric. 

 

10 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

This should be basic science. But somehow. Its not.

 

This is why I say people have no use for facts or science

Nice strawman.

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

… Genghis massacred 67 millions Chinese … in the most brutal and barbaric manner. 

Maybe. Idk. Opinion seems divided. A quick look online:

 - “the number of Chinese casualties is estimated to be in the millions, not tens of millions”

 - “… recent Western scholarship has begun to reassess its previous view of him as a barbarian warlord.”

 

 

[Lairg]

Are there unbiased experiments that can demonstrate the existence of free will?

 

For example, if a religious person makes a choice, how do we know that it is a choice unbiased by beliefs?

 

Perhaps the main exercise of free will is in deciding what to believe

 

 

Edited May 24 by Lairg

[Cobie]

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Edited May 25 by Cobie

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

Are there unbiased experiments that can demonstrate the existence of free will?

 

For example, if a religious person makes a choice, how do we know that it is a choice unbiased by beliefs?

 

Perhaps the main exercise of free will is in deciding what to believe

 

 

 

There is that HINT for the second time from two different posters  ...  The other wrote   something like 'what people choose to believe  '  

 

There is a VERY different dynamic going on between people who believe something and people that choose or decide to believe something .

[stirling]

19 hours ago, Lairg said:

A generally excellent proposition.  So are there preconditions for responding rather than reacting?

 

Do reactionary humans not have much free will?

 

Even today many media interviewers ask:  What's your reaction to ....?

 

Yes, there are certainly preconditions: Everything that has ever happened in the universe.  Even if we believe in  "free will", it is based in the causes and conditions that cover this moment... so, not really "free".

 

[Lairg]

We are free to choose, but only free to cause in very limited situations

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Yes, there are certainly preconditions: Everything that has ever happened in the universe.  Even if we believe in  "free will", it is based in the causes and conditions that cover this moment... so, not really "free".

 

 

   .....  the Universe does allow only certain  'happenings'  ; 

 

I am reminded of a young and aspiring magician  who got kicked out the navy , he suffered a 'medical situation' where on board his ship he took an excessively  large amount of cocaine . Reason ? Magical experiment . He was  trying to 'set fire to a pane of glass via sheer willpower .'  

 

One wonders if it was considered a cocaine overdose would supply the magical impetus necessary to 'over ride the inclinations of the Universe '   OR  he came up with the idea  for the 'experiment    after he took the cocaine ?   

[Nungali]

PS  the glass did not catch fire   (although his arse may have  when the  CO came to visit him in 'sick bay'. )

[Sherman Krebbs]

On 5/24/2025 at 3:14 AM, Nungali said:

Not sure about that 'unsafe site' long time loading so I aborted it  ... but 

 

also 'God' is an anachronism  that tries to stand over us   

 

It was the chapter "Little Harmonic Labyrinth" from the book Gödel, Escher, Bach.   

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

We are free to choose, but only free to cause in very limited situations

 

We are simultaneously an almost insignificant element in what happens in every moment, but ALSO inextricably linked at the deepest and most subtle level to everything that happens. Will has nothing to do with it, BUT what we are IS the awareness of what occurs.

 

Something like this:

 

https://scienceandnonduality.com/article/the-indras-net/

[Lairg]

24 minutes ago, stirling said:

We are simultaneously an almost insignificant element in what happens in every moment, but ALSO inextricably linked at the deepest and most subtle level to everything that happens.

 

I agree but I do not know how you know this

 

Meanwhile the energy structure of the Earth human is capable of resonance with the core of this galaxy.  Why is this so?

 

 

 

 

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

I agree but I do not know how you know this

 

I don't know it so much as gnow it, as in gnosis. There was an "event" in the past (or non-event, really) where my separateness as a person, the separateness of all things, the separateness of time, and of space winked out briefly, and when it came back I knew it was illusory, and always had been. Over time that separateness became more and more gossamer and then was eventually non-existent, now existing as a permanent insight, and the most salient "quality" of anything perceived.

 

You say:

 

Quote

Meanwhile the energy structure of the Earth human is capable of resonance with the core of this galaxy.  Why is this so?

 

It's interesting, but tell me, can YOU experience all of this yourself in this moment, or is this a story you were told or constructed yourself? Things like this might be a story we tell ourselves about our universe, and might even be "true" where we believe in a universe of separate objects with relative relationships to each other, but underneath I know that it is ultimately impossible. Gods, demons, dark matter, UFOs, etc. all have a certain reality as things existing relative to each other in a universe of relative things, but the deeper nature of all of these things is that they don't exist as relative things.

 

It isn't my invention, documents like the Buddha's Heart Sutra, or the teachings of Meister Eckhardt, or Rumi amongst countless others are ALL about this. 

 

 

[Tommy]

This topic seems to have gotten some mileage with many people speaking on one side or the other. And there even seems to be some hostilities thrown into the mix. Personally, I see everything as inter-related. One thing brings with it another. One condition sets up the actions of another. Environment along with genetics plays their part in what actions are done. So, is there free will? Yes, in so much as we believe there is. And no, when one continues to react to the world instead of responding with awareness and compassion. 

 

I doubt whether anyone takes me seriously. And maybe no one should as they have made up their own minds. So, the wise old band once sang their songs, "Let It Be". Speaking words of wisdom, "Let It Be".

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, stirling said:

We are simultaneously an almost insignificant element in what happens in every moment, but ALSO inextricably linked at the deepest and most subtle level to everything that happens.

 

And may I add, in addition we quite literally create everything we experience in every moment. 

By create I mean that things seem to be as they are because we are as we are.

In other words, we see the world and others not really as they are, although that does contribute, but primarily as we are.

 

[liminal_luke]

Rather than asking what is true, I prefer to ask what is useful.  Will my life be better if I believe myself to have free will or not?  The answer to this question might change depending on our stage of life and circumstances.  Sometimes it´s useful to believe in our own agency, striving to do and create; at other times the best option is to surrender to our ultimate powerlessness.  

[doc benway]

56 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Sometimes it´s useful to believe in our own agency, striving to do and create; at other times the best option is to surrender to our ultimate powerlessness.  

 

My present experience is that it seems irrelevant as to whether I believe in free will or not. Thoughts and feelings arise which seem to lead to actions and choices. Whether the relationship is causal or simply an inner narrative describing events and postulating agency makes little difference in my life experience.

[Lairg]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Quote

Meanwhile the energy structure of the Earth human is capable of resonance with the core of this galaxy.  Why is this so?

 

It's interesting, but tell me, can YOU experience all of this yourself in this moment, or is this a story you were told or constructed yourself?

 

I regularly have such experiences - sometimes from experiments

 

 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

  7 hours ago, stirling said:

 

  Quote

Meanwhile the energy structure of the Earth human is capable of resonance with the core of this galaxy.  Why is this so?

 

It's interesting, but tell me, can YOU experience all of this yourself in this moment, or is this a story you were told or constructed yourself?

 

I regularly have such experiences - sometimes from experiments

 

 

 

 

 

[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.

 

(MN 7, tr. Pali Text Society vol I p 48)

 

Gautama said that “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of the mind of compassion was the first of the further concentrations, a concentration he called “the plane of infinite ether” (MN 111; tr. Pali Text Society vol III p 79).

 

The Oxford English Dictionary offers some quotes about “ether” (Oxford English Dictionary, s.v. “ether (n.),” March 2024.):

 

They [sc. the Brahmins] thought the stars moved, and the planets they called fishes, because they moved in the ether, as fishes do in water.

 

(Vince, Complete System. Astronomy vol. II. 253 [1799])

 

 

Plato considered that the stars, chiefly formed of fire, move through the ether, a particularly pure form of air.

(Popular Astronomy vol. 24 364 [1916])

 

 

When the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an extension of the mind of compassion, there can be a feeling that the necessity of breath is connected to things that lie outside the boundaries of the senses.  That, to me, is an experience of “the plane of infinite ether”.

 

(The Inconceivable Nature of the Wind)