Where are the High Level Martial Artists/Fighters at?

[Paradoxal]

18 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Is there any truth to boxing being the most effective matial art? 

If there were truly a "most effective martial art", it would most certainly not be boxing.

 

Boxing is a sport, not a martial art!

 

Even if we were to consider it a martial art, the use of gloves in practice makes it ineffective in actual combat because it lacks the conditioning required for bareknuckle use. Its footwork is specialized under the assumption of no kicks and no grappling, and is thus very ungrounded. Likewise, it not only lacks kicks and grappling, which are essential parts of any fighting system, it also lacks trained defenses against them, and against weapons. 

 

It can be useful as a training tool for understanding close range fighting, and it can be very fun, but it is not self-defense oriented on its own.

 

6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Wing Chun is stationery that is defensive with the arms in a limited space.

I dunno what you've been taught, but the WC I've learned includes kicks, grappling, and groundwork. It is certainly not just defensive or stationary, and includes everything Chen style taiji has.

 

Historically, WC was made for the express purpose of raising soldiers with the same skills as Chen style in 1/3 the time, for the goal of killing Chen style practitioners on the battlefield. 

 

Yes, there are dumbasses claiming to be "masters" while never pressure testing themselves or doing basic conditioning, but they are simply delusional at best and scam artists at worst, and certainly do not have even a rudimentary understanding of martial arts. 

[Thrice Daily]

12 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't see how that could work. They are totally different in practice. Wing Chun is stationery that is defensive with the arms in a limited space. Taiji is moving around.

It’s because you haven’t trained it in I think. It’s very evident I think. 
 

Wing Chun is also moving around. The bending of the knees in is a characteristic that you could pay attention to. Especially as you like physics , demonstrated in your posts. 
 

the triangle V like stance. Allows connection to the earth that is superior to any other stance in terms of absorbing force through joints and into the ground, also bringing it back up , quickest and most accurately (efficient) I could be wrong but I think this is scientifically correct. So In that regard we could say it is stationary, (as a moment is more like a photograph and not a video i) think this is how your mind is working it as your body has no experience of it ,,, yet…

 

no there is lots of moving legs in Wing Chun

 

So the movement you practice in Taiji, if you were able to switch mid practice to wing Chun principles , the limbs would retract and bend more.

 

your form would have a smaller frame and contract (possibly a move or two would not translate) but I bet you most would… if it truly pertains to usefulness as a martial art and not only health practices 

Edited November 17, 2024 by Thrice Daily

[Master Logray]

6 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Historically, WC was made for the express purpose of raising soldiers with the same skills as Chen style in 1/3 the time, for the goal of killing Chen style practitioners on the battlefield. 

 

Yes, there are dumbasses claiming to be "masters" while never pressure testing themselves or doing basic conditioning, but they are simply delusional at best and scam artists at worst, and certainly do not have even a rudimentary understanding of martial arts. 

 

I don't believe that.  Both Chen Style and WC (esp WC) are not battlefield combat skills, but personal protection skills.   Those northern martial arts are.  But the 1/3 training speed is true.   The major weakness of Taichi is the much longer training time.   Although it is considered the most sophisticated martial arts, but it takes ages to train and be proficient.   WC could be quite useful after 6 months.  Taichi needs few years.   While WC can be trained solo for most of the time, Taichi needs quite a few comparable opponents in simple skill like push hand, not to mention more realistic training.    Taichi is very inefficient in learning. 

 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I think technically wing chunners could learn a lot from Taiji players. 

And Taiji players could learn a lot about efficiency from a more compact point of view. 

 

Against mma though, like in the video, if the mma opponent is bigger , heavier and stronger with better cardio, he doesnt need much skill to beat anyone much smaller than him whatever the supposed level is... The trad martial artist should probably just crush his foot with a good stamp. As eye gauging, throat and soft parts are off limits I guess the foot would be the next logocal port of attack.

 

The amount of times   ( in karate  practice ) I have simply  stepped forward , onto the others foot , and caused . well, chaos .

 

This is due to the weird way modern karate works , one steps forward to attack, the other steps back and blocks , if you step on their lead foot ( well, not all of them but a lot of them )   and they cant step back, it seems to disrupt their technique and 'skill'  ...  now you are 'in their face ' and a lot of them are not used to that .

 

regarding the 'foot stomp ', I saw a very slight Vietnamese  guy  down a huge abusing racist bully with that .   Big drunk guy grabbed him, started yelling racist abuse , the  Viet guy ( seemed to, from what I could see )  put the  front corner of his shoe heel into the guys shin, ran it down the inside to the top of his foot and gave it a little twist . Bully went down instantly in a heap , Viet guy stepped over him and kept walking away .  ... wow !

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't see how that could work. They are totally different in practice. Wing Chun is stationery that is defensive with the arms in a limited space. Taiji is moving around.

 

The wing chung practitioner I had a go with moved around pretty good !  She slugged me one on the point of the chin as well ! 

[Paradoxal]

15 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Both Chen Style and WC (esp WC) are not battlefield combat skills, but personal protection skills.

Again, I cannot speak for all WC lineages, but the stuff I've been shown adapts to armored melee use quite well; I've actually had the pleasure to fight in full lamellar armor before, as well as in melee-scale mock battles. The WC stuff worked wonders there, and if you examine things from a strategic perspective, even the strategy used at individual levels scales to large army levels quite seamlessly. 

Plus, at the advanced level, WC actually has an entire arsenal of stuff dedicated to killing opponents, though this is rightly not shown publicly very often. If we're talking about it being just "personal defense," this would certainly not be the case.

 

That said, I can certainly see how it could be taught wrong and thus be lacking such uses; if the athletic conditioning or the martial (as in, for your bones, for your tendons, etc.) conditioning were left out, then it would not only be useless on the battlefield but also for self defense. I have seen it taught without this stuff and frankly, I find such teaching to be very malicious. 

 

Another possible way it could be lacking is if you are not taught the actual strategic side of things, and instead take a very materialistic look at the art. What is shown as a "pak sao" should be thought of as a concept, but many people mistake it to be a very specific movement. Such people begin to teach, and thus entire lineages lose out on a large part WC.

 

A similar thing has happened for modern karate, where many people learn stuff like "upper block" or "lower block" and are led to miss out on the fact that literally none of the movements in karate are just for "blocking." It's a shame, but on the bright side, there are still instructors in both WC and karate out there that actually know and teach the deeper parts of the arts.

Edited November 18, 2024 by Paradoxal

[Gerard]

For fighting, I'd personally choose Muay Thai over anything else.
 

1. Very effective

2. No frills

3. It's the foundation of MMA

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Again, I cannot speak for all WC lineages, but the stuff I've been shown adapts to armored melee use quite well; I've actually had the pleasure to fight in full lamellar armor before, as well as in melee-scale mock battles.

That must have been awesome!

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

The WC stuff worked wonders there, and if you examine things from a strategic perspective, even the strategy used at individual levels scales to large army levels quite seamlessly. 

Would would have been some of your main take-aways from this experience, anything unexpected?

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Plus, at the advanced level, WC actually has an entire arsenal of stuff dedicated to killing opponents, though this is rightly not shown publicly very often. If we're talking about it being just "personal defense," this would certainly not be the case.

From what I understand the same is true with Chen Style, some brutal and quite unbelievable potentialities.

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

That said, I can certainly see how it could be taught wrong and thus be lacking such uses; if the athletic conditioning or the martial (as in, for your bones, for your tendons, etc.) conditioning were left out, then it would not only be useless on the battlefield but also for self defense. I have seen it taught without this stuff and frankly, I find such teaching to be very malicious. 

Totally agree with you there. Pak Sau though I think, great duty should be taught when teaching it properly and demonstrating it on a student.....

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Another possible way it could be lacking is if you are not taught the actual strategic side of things, and instead take a very materialistic look at the art. What is shown as a "pak sao" should be thought of as a concept, but many people mistake it to be a very specific movement. Such people begin to teach, and thus entire lineages lose out on a large part WC.

Fantastic, you sound like an interesting character, I'd love to read your notes if you make any, sounds like you have some real introspection

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

A similar thing has happened for modern karate, where many people learn stuff like "upper block" or "lower block" and are led to miss out on the fact that literally none of the movements in karate are just for "blocking." It's a shame, but on the bright side, there are still instructors in both WC and karate out there that actually know and teach the deeper parts of the arts.

hmmm.

[Thrice Daily]

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

The amount of times   ( in karate  practice ) I have simply  stepped forward , onto the others foot , and caused . well, chaos .

It's effective isn't it  

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

This is due to the weird way modern karate works , one steps forward to attack, the other steps back and blocks , if you step on their lead foot ( well, not all of them but a lot of them )   and they cant step back, it seems to disrupt their technique and 'skill'  ...  now you are 'in their face ' and a lot of them are not used to that .

Did you ever hear about the legend that Karate was developed from Fujian White Crane Kung Fu, I've heard the stepping in forms are almost identical.

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

regarding the 'foot stomp ', I saw a very slight Vietnamese  guy  down a huge abusing racist bully with that .   Big drunk guy grabbed him, started yelling racist abuse , the  Viet guy ( seemed to, from what I could see )  put the  front corner of his shoe heel into the guys shin, ran it down the inside to the top of his foot and gave it a little twist . Bully went down instantly in a heap , Viet guy stepped over him and kept walking away .  ... wow !

 

[Paradoxal]

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Would would have been some of your main take-aways from this experience, anything unexpected?

Quote

First, on an individual scale, mental flexibility is needed. You need to be willing to run and fight on a melee battlefield, which would be unthinkable if you were stuck in the 1v1 dojo mindset. You also need to have the ability to kill (or in my case, "kill") an armored opponent in less than 2 seconds without yourself going to ground, as you probably won't have more than that before the lines push you out of position. This means adapting the blocks, strikes, and grapples to be used while moving, instead of slowly and strategically (but you still want to apply strategy!).

 

You need to understand, not memorize the concepts; if you simply memorize WC's concepts, using them at scale would be very difficult, if not impossible. For instance, taking the opponent's balance: in small scale combat, this seems obvious, but how would you apply it to large scale combat? Certainly not by yanking their arm to throw their balance off! This can instead be done through positioning of your troops in key places that cut the enemy's troops maneuverability, as an example. Funnily enough, though, you can also "yank" the enemy troops to throw them off balance through baiting them into weak positions. Both of these cases can apply to single combat through your own positioning and through physically yanking (and psychologically baiting) the opponent, but when understood properly, the concepts themselves can be applied everywhere in life.

 

Think of it like how Sun Tzu's Art of War is currently used in the business world. 

 

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

From what I understand the same is true with Chen Style, some brutal and quite unbelievable potentialities.

Quote

Again, I was taught that WC was specifically made to include *EVERYTHING* Chen style has, including the energetic and lethal stuff. It was pieced together from every system in the Shaolin temple at the time, using only the most efficient methods from each one, but that doesn't mean it didn't manage to achieve completion of all of them. 

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'd love to read your notes if you make any

Unfortunately, I can't make those public as I don't have permission from my teachers, and those contain some stuff that shouldn't be released publicly. 

 

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Did you ever hear about the legend that Karate was developed from Fujian White Crane Kung Fu, I've heard the stepping in forms are almost identical.

Quote

This isn't a legend, but actual truth. Karate traces much of its origins to Southern Shaolin, most specifically the systems of White Crane and "Monk Boxing", though some Tiger and Mantis can be seen in particular styles of karate as well. 

 

If you're interested, I'd recommend checking out Jesse Enkamp's videos on the stuff. He does his research very thoroughly and gives sources for much of his findings.

 

I'll link some good ones below:

 

(I got the chance to train in this dojo with Hokama sensei myself, and can confirm that he is insanely knowledgeable about the history of martial arts! If you ever have the chance, please do check out his museum!)

[Nungali]

On 11/19/2024 at 7:12 AM, Thrice Daily said:

It's effective isn't it  

Did you ever hear about the legend that Karate was developed from Fujian White Crane Kung Fu, I've heard the stepping in forms are almost identical.

 

 

?   Not only have I heard about it  , I believe I have discussed it , here on DBs , with you .

 

Now, is my 70 yo memory imagining things .... or is the 'young fellah' loosing the plot ?

[Nungali]

On 11/19/2024 at 9:17 AM, Paradoxal said:

First, on an individual scale, mental flexibility is needed. You need to be willing to run and fight on a melee battlefield, which would be unthinkable if you were stuck in the 1v1 dojo mindset. You also need to have the ability to kill (or in my case, "kill") an armored opponent in less than 2 seconds without yourself going to ground, as you probably won't have more than that before the lines push you out of position. This means adapting the blocks, strikes, and grapples to be used while moving, instead of slowly and strategically (but you still want to apply strategy!).

 

You need to understand, not memorize the concepts; if you simply memorize WC's concepts, using them at scale would be very difficult, if not impossible. For instance, taking the opponent's balance: in small scale combat, this seems obvious, but how would you apply it to large scale combat? Certainly not by yanking their arm to throw their balance off! This can instead be done through positioning of your troops in key places that cut the enemy's troops maneuverability, as an example. Funnily enough, though, you can also "yank" the enemy troops to throw them off balance through baiting them into weak positions. Both of these cases can apply to single combat through your own positioning and through physically yanking (and psychologically baiting) the opponent, but when understood properly, the concepts themselves can be applied everywhere in life.

 

Think of it like how Sun Tzu's Art of War is currently used in the business world. 

 

Again, I was taught that WC was specifically made to include *EVERYTHING* Chen style has, including the energetic and lethal stuff. It was pieced together from every system in the Shaolin temple at the time, using only the most efficient methods from each one, but that doesn't mean it didn't manage to achieve completion of all of them. 

 

Unfortunately, I can't make those public as I don't have permission from my teachers, and those contain some stuff that shouldn't be released publicly. 

 

This isn't a legend, but actual truth. Karate traces much of its origins to Southern Shaolin, most specifically the systems of White Crane and "Monk Boxing", though some Tiger and Mantis can be seen in particular styles of karate as well. 

 

If you're interested, I'd recommend checking out Jesse Enkamp's videos on the stuff. He does his research very thoroughly and gives sources for much of his findings.

 

I'll link some good ones below:

 

(I got the chance to train in this dojo with Hokama sensei myself, and can confirm that he is insanely knowledgeable about the history of martial arts! If you ever have the chance, please do check out his museum!)

 

Its certainly the case with our founder ; Bushi Matsmura ; him and other 'pechin'  ( sort of like 'knights '  ' 'royalty'  ) went to  Fujian more than once .

 

After Hohan Soken died  I and other students where given his 'Jisei'  *  that he wrote out for us ... interesting subject matter !

 

*  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_poem

 

 

 

"I have taught you all I know. There is no more I can teach you. I am a candle whose light has traveled far. You are my candles to whom I have passed on my light. It is you who will light the path for others. Today I see around me the lights of Shaolin. The flame of tomorrow. My task is done, soon my flame will end. Teach the true spirit of karate-do and one day you may enter the Temple of Shaolin." 
 

[Nungali]

Unfortunately , off to the side of that 'temple' are stalls ; they sell trinkets and flashy weapons that break if used for more than posing ; they have colored belts and all types of colored uniforms and badges and signs of rank ; they sell certificates of merit and accomplishments and promise a future of endless devolved  styles  and junior student fees .

 

many get distracted , buy the   goodies and wander off to seek their fortunes .

[Nungali]

rare Sonny Umpad vid found . 

 

I have heard reference to this tour . Sony was virtually unknown  'blade master ' until an American martial artists  found him and decided he needed to go on tour .  Sony was the master of a few latter more well known styles  including the survival of ' Visayan Cordoba escima ' 

 

 

[Sanity Check]

Out of everything I do.

 

Athleticism and fighting are the things I am worst at.

 

That said I do enjoy working on technique and improving my skills in this area.

 

Is there anything people do they would recommend or share here.

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

On 03/05/2025 at 1:17 PM, Sanity Check said:

 

Is there anything people do they would recommend or share here.

 

 

Ziran Gong

[zerostao]

To answer the OP question;

I'd say that the overwhelming vast majority of them are in a grave somewhere 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, zerostao said:

To answer the OP question;

I'd say that the overwhelming vast majority of them are in a grave somewhere 

 

 

Or   the old people's home . 

[Neirong]

On 03.07.2025 at 2:39 AM, zerostao said:

I'd say that the overwhelming vast majority of them are in a grave somewhere 

The strongest being is not the one who wins the fight, the tournament, the battle, the war, it is the one who "survives" death, the one who lived hundreds, thousands of years ago, and can still operate in this world without losing oneself. 

[Nungali]

Except this thread isn't about 'the strongest beings' .  

[Thrice Daily]

To me a real martial artist will use his or her skills to diffuse a situation rather than add more aggression to it.

 

Since learning wing Chun I’m never thrown a punch. I’ve used stepping and turning and bong Sau to ward off attacks. The situations always diffuse.

 

i’m speaking as a regular citizen though not a hard boiled fighter.

 

That being said lots of time spent shadow boxing , slowing things right down and considering every possibility creates imo a good martial artist.

 

Of course it’s not pressure testing it though. Perhaps it makes it more art and less martial. I’m happy either way , being a peaceful being I’m rather bring peace with my martial arts than fighting.

 

The three prayers to Buddha done with reverse breathing keeps me ready though and strong.

[old3bob]

On 7/2/2025 at 4:39 PM, zerostao said:

To answer the OP question;

I'd say that the overwhelming vast majority of them are in a grave somewhere 

 

that's another way to go underground...(or unseen)

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

To me a real martial artist will use his or her skills to diffuse a situation rather than add more aggression to it.

 

Since learning wing Chun I’m never thrown a punch. I’ve used stepping and turning and bong Sau to ward off attacks. The situations always diffuse.

 

i’m speaking as a regular citizen though not a hard boiled fighter.

 

That being said lots of time spent shadow boxing , slowing things right down and considering every possibility creates imo a good martial artist.

 

Of course it’s not pressure testing it though. Perhaps it makes it more art and less martial. I’m happy either way , being a peaceful being I’m rather bring peace with my martial arts than fighting.

 

The three prayers to Buddha done with reverse breathing keeps me ready though and strong.

 

 

... and responding effectively  to it  . 

 

IMO  a 'good martial artist '   is one who can deliver a  good  counter and technique  and with skill and focus .... especially amidst the chaos of a bout or 'melee'  can 'pull' it just in time  so no serious injury or hurt has resulted , and the other or any judge or onlooker  is able to be aware of that . 

 

of course, this is very specific to me  as nearly all of my early bouts and comp where supposed to be done like that .

 

Its an issue in MA .... how ya gonna do it ?   I was in a group that used armor ... it was cumbersome and restrictive  and also allowed  the other to keep going when they should be knocked out  ( of course, you can use armor and weapons in the traditional way  and slog it out )  using focus and pulling punches and stopping techniques can work but if you do that a lot you might effect any real application .  Slowing down a bit helps , especially if the other acts like they have been hit  -  how many times you seen a guy do a punch  and he stands there erect still holding the fist and arm out while the other dances around him delivering a flurry of techniques ?  Well, that ain't real either .  

 

Eg ,  in practice  some one might  throw a right cross, I'll slip to my right  and intercept with a  ( held back )   right spear knuckle strike into their  LU9 ... then  ..... do something else  to follow up  while they stand there .

 

But if I really do it ... they ain't just standing there ... there is a reaction, their whole body shape and position  will change - usually they immediately loose their center ... it rises , the shoulders hunch up, the face 'scrunches down' , the right fist retracts and is held in to the chest often by the other hand .     So in practice  focus misses out on a lot  and also confuses 'application' . 

 

Another example is a combo in a pattern ... eye flick followed by elbow to the head .... nearly impossible to do so people have come up with weird and impractical stuff .  Yet one time  ... a weird accident , I have no idea what the guy was doing, he was supposedly a 3 degree black belt and an instructor . he knew what I was going to do and also I was going slow , I flicked my hand towards his eyeball slowly and he didn't even  turn away or flinch !   It was a  light 'brush'  but he immediately put both hands up to his eyes and bent over in front of me exposing the back of his neck , all I had to do was  drop my center into a low horse stance and drop my elbow down onto the back of his skull where the spine goes in .

 

Which I didn't , of course , as I was too busy crouching over checking to see  if he was ok .   - apparently  he didn't see it coming as he 'looked away' at the last minute  ( training in the park by the river ...    bikini girls !   )  DUDE  !    3rd Dan black belt ?  

 

That's what ya get for training inside a dojo  or hall all your life !      

 

Or you can use some techniques  and ban others  by rules  - but that's also a restriction . 

 

You can try  full delivery with some bans on some techniques as in MAA and the like , but same as above . 

 

Or you can go all out ..... and have a very short career  and a very sore  and painful old age  ! 

 

[Paradoxal]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

IMO  a 'good martial artist '   is one who can deliver a  good  counter and technique  and with skill and focus .... especially amidst the chaos of a bout or 'melee'  can 'pull' it just in time  so no serious injury or hurt has resulted , and the other or any judge or onlooker  is able to be aware of that

Agreed, but on the flip side, I'd say that it's very important for a martial artist to know when they've had this mercy given.

 

One of the places I practice usually ends the night with a "playful" randoori, where we are explicitly told not to injure and to "gracefully lose". Basically, know when it's time to back off and don't injure or get injured. 

 

A running issue there is that people don't realize that something could have knocked out or killed them *because* of holding back... lots of shots to the neck, throat, back of the head, ears, etc. that people just disregard because they've never felt what it actually does when force it put into it.

[Nungali]

Oh yeah ... and also they never get the experience of  'going on' through injury . 

 

Even worse ...   ( but hit got better    )    Avi ... a training partner  ; after a while I was frustrated with his 'delicacy'  . 

" Jeeze dude !  Take a shot in my chest .... not too hard ."  he does this little 'pat' . 

 

fer God's sake man !  I said not too hard but that  was  nothing , put something into it . "  Again .  " Okay harder  .... harder  .... harder .... "

 

"Are you sure ?" 

 

Yep ... harder ..... harder !   Okay, that's a bout it . So, you can hit me that hard  in training . "

 

" Wow man , you hard as nails ! " 

 

" No, I'm not !  I'm really not , I am not that strong and tough at all . Look, you stand there and let me hit you the same ...... Dude, don't flinch before I even do it  !         I'll start soft ... 

 

Avi ;  "  Oh .... harder .... harder  ....."   and so on .   Eventually   "  I didn't think I could take a hard punch like that ."

 

"It wasn't that hard  .  But at least now you deal with  ..... 'something '  ... but don't get confident  ..... I am not a very hard hitter  .... that's why I go for  'sensitive spots ' .  "