Transgender Q&A

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 This thread became very confusing for me  ....  I have to pay more attention to whats going on . I thought I was reading a post from Silent Thunder  but it was from Blue eyed Snake ;

 

 

I was ....   

 

Silent Thunder is  like   'Bob'  from 'Fight Club ' ?  

 

 

Well, I got that sorted , so now I can return to the world of 'normality '  . 

 

That literally made me laugh out loud 😂

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Defending something that is of shaky foundation, uncertain, and prone to fail under questioning. Hence fear, hence the triggered emotions that you're under threat and boiling blood. 

 

Whearas truth, is forever open to be questioned by anything. It is not afraid because its certainty is forever established. The truth has no need to defend itself or be afraid of different opinions. Only ego does that. 

 

Now I am confused again . You seem to be talking about truth as if it has some  human type attributes ? 

 

Perhaps you are talking about a   human's perception of how truth is   ?

[Maddie]

I feel like the TTC is much more gender ambiguous than our modern society is. 

 

Also even though I identify as a Buddhist lately I absolutely prefer reading the TTC.

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Clever answer

I would have sayed. "indeed people may need to go through various experiences in life to grow and develop. And those experiences can be very diverse. But should we still consider trans phylosophy valid? Some people may need experience long phase of alcohol abuse. But does that mean being an alcoholic is intelligent thing to do? Definitely being an alcoholic may play a role in somebodies spiritual development but does that mean alcoholism needs to be endorsed and promoted? Etc. " 

 

It wasnt the thing itself I was 'endorsing ' but the persons perception of what their True Will was .

 

I dont support alcoholism , but if that is a persons path   .....  <shrug >   .

 

I am a Thelemite  , so I dont  ' Treat others as I want to be treated ' ... my Goodness !   what problems THAT would cause . I aim to treat them as THEY WANT to be treated  if I am going to do something like that  .... or I might not bother .

 

I know, its probably a weird perspective for most .   I said how I gave ........ ten bucks in her street cup . Miss Doo-gooder decided to inform me and everyone else present  that ...... is a junkie , dont give her money . Then she went on to delight all of us present in how fantastic she was by buying the  woman a healthy  balanced lunch instead and giving that too her  instead .... you should do that  too .

 

Nah ..... she asked for some money, I gave it to her, or  I could have decided not to , its up to her  what she does with her money .  besides , what she gonna do with 2 , 3 or 4 lunches !

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 I dont  ' Treat others as I want to be treated ' ... my Goodness !   what problems THAT would cause . I aim to treat them as THEY WANT to be treated  if I am going to do something like that  .... or I might not bother .

 

Love this!

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Salvijus said:

No no I did not mean that at all. 

 

I meant just because a particular experience is good for your growth, or just because a particular experience is part of your souls destiny and karma. Doesn't mean that that particular experience is intelligent or wise thing to do.

 

Transitory ' this life down here ' experience , even based on   earthly intelligence and wisdom , trumps   soul destiny and karma ? 

Urrrgh !  Thats a tricky one !

 

 

Or should be endorsed and promoted etc. Alcoholism is just one example that shows how a particular experience while can serve the function of a person's life journey isn't in any way or form intelligent thing to do. There are many other such examples. 

 

For the record. I'm not saying trans phylosophy is unintelligent thing to do. To be honest I don't know the answer of how much wisdom there is in that movement. I would only question it, inquire into it. And see where it takes me. My participation in this discussion is a form of group discussion about the logic and validity of trans phylosophy. Would be nice if people didn't take it so personally. Although it's a sensitive topic so I understand the reaction.

 

Its easy to take impersonally when you are not under threat , judgement and personal attack .

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

I seem to remember that the Torah or adjacent scripture mentions 6 or maybe 8 genders 🤔

 

Oh wow ... ya GOITTA   'site  that one .  ( meaning ; reference please )

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

Before. My energy has always been feminine. I got told I was girly all the time as a kid in school.

 

now that i call interesting

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

@blue eyed snake

 

Totally agree that people cannot choose.  If I told you that I am a transgender woman that would be a lie.  I am not and cannot become one by announcement.  In general, I trust adults who say they are transgender.  I trust you and Maddie.  But of course there are people who will lie for nefarious reasons and that´s a problem, for all of us, but especially for people who are legitimately trans.  

 

I don´t know the emotional discomfort of feeling like I was born in the wrong body.  That´s never been a part of my experience so I can´t claim to know what it´s like.  I do know many other kinds of lonliness and alienation as those are universal human experiences.  I believe trans people when they tell me that it´s painful being in the wrong body, sometimes very painful.  I hope that trans people everywhere can feel comfortable with themselves and society at large, and if social or medical transitioning helps then I´m all for it.  We´re all just trying to be happy. 

 

I try, in general, not to be an asshole.  A big part of that is not judging people when I don´t know anything about their circumstances.  So I try not to judge people who look different than I do or want to use alternative pronouns.  I´ll admit to a bit of discomfort around a few of the less conventional pronouns but, what can I say, I´m a work in progress.

 

At the same time, I hope there´s room for people who think that people are (mostly) born male or female, and that physical anatomy is what makes the difference.  People ought to be able to say that without incurring moral scorn.  I can think that people remain the gender they are "assigned at birth" and still be a good person.  To me, it´s just a matter of what definitions we are choosing to use.  

 

Question: Am I morally required to see people as they see themselves?    

 

Well, that depends where you got your morals from ;  Christian perspective ? No, you are required to see them as you see yourself  and treat them as you want yourself to be treated . 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Oh wow ... ya GOITTA   'site  that one .  ( meaning ; reference please )

 

i think it came along in a dutch newspaper or something, but this looks like somthing

 

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-eight-genders-in-the-talmud/

[Maddie]

12 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

now that i call interesting

I'll let you judge for yourself. On the right was the last picture I took of myself as a guy before I started transitioning. On the left is a picture I took a couple weeks ago.

[blue eyed snake]

36 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I feel like the TTC is much more gender ambiguous than our modern society is. 

 

Also even though I identify as a Buddhist lately I absolutely prefer reading the TTC.

 

i think there's a nice piece in the golden flower too,

but for today I am finished 

 

sleepytime

[Nungali]

11 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

now that i call interesting

 

Yeah ..... I should have made TWO lines ; 

 

physical ;

 

Female  ...............................................................................................  Male .

 

and people can be born anywhere along that line . Many seem clustered at either end but few are on the exact  end extremities .

 

'Perceptual' ( add emotions, feeling, 'spirit',  whatever )

 

Feminine ................................................................................................ Masculine

 

same applies .   Note ;   the points where you are need not be the same on the physical line to the perceptual line .

 

Eg . Some men might be entirely 'masculine'  but show vestigial  feminine  traces in their genitals  due to early physical development of genitals ....

 

" The external sex organs – the penis in boys, the clitoris and labia majora in girls – don't start to differ from each other until about 11 weeks. And even then, it takes several more weeks to be able to easily see the difference between boys and girls on an ultrasound.

 

as we know , sometimes this process ' gets confused' and the body can produce any variety of physical combinations or mixtures  of those physical organs .

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I'll let you judge for yourself. On the right was the last picture I took of myself as a guy before I started transitioning. On the left is a picture I took a couple weeks ago.

 

Maybe I´m just imagining this, but you do look much more at home in your body as a woman.  To me, the picture of you as a guy has a bit of a nails-on-a-chalkboard feeling that I don´t see in your present day images.  I think when we´re more comfortable with ourselves, it´s easier for other people to be comfortable with us too.  Wow!

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Maybe I´m just imagining this, but you do look much more at home in your body as a woman.  To me, the picture of you as a guy has a bit of a nails-on-a-chalkboard feeling that I don´t see in your present day images.  I think when we´re more comfortable with ourselves, it´s easier for other people to be comfortable with us too.  Wow!

 

Lol that's funny because that's exactly how it felt then and feels now. You're good lol.

[silent thunder]

Fantastic stuff @Maddie

Thank you for sharing so openly and dealing with the ignorance of some so patiently.

 

High skill on display.  You are inspiring.

[Salvijus]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

. I aim to treat them as THEY WANT to be treated 

That sounds very noble and compassionate and empathic at first glance. However, you can end up pampering someone's ego that way aswell. You can end up conforming to a group just so you don't upset anyone's apple cart. You will end up losing your authenticity. 

 

I would say be yourself, serve only truth. Deny what is of ego. And the intelligence, wisdom and love that you are will know how to respond to every situation or person in highest good for everyone. And if it be that your presence disturbs people, so be it. It's inevitable. Because truth is always perceived as an enemy to the ego. And the world is still mostly ego. 

 

In fact if you're not perceived to be at least a little bit outrageous. It might be a sign you have conformed to insanity that the world is. 

Edited April 18 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

7 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Sometimes the things just are.

You just need to have the last word even if it's something completely irrelevant... Lol

Okay you can have it. I will let this one go. 

Edited April 18 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

You just need to have the last word even if it's something completely irrelevant... Lol

Okay you can have it. I will let this one go. 

 

If you were letting it go you wouldn't have said anything.

 

Projecting much?

Edited April 18 by Maddie

[Salvijus]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Now I am confused again . You seem to be talking about truth as if it has some  human type attributes ? 

 

Perhaps you are talking about a   human's perception of how truth is   ?

Truth manifests itself very differently than ego manifests itself. Wisdom manifests itself very differenetly than egoic knowledge and cleverness. Love manifests very differently than egoic fear or hate. Trust and faith and perfect certainty manifests itself very differenetly than egoic manipulation, control, insecurity. Perfect peace and sovergnity manifests itself differently than the need for approval and attention. 

 

You should be getting the point by now I believe. That's how you can know if somebody is serving their ego or the truth. 

Edited April 18 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

If you were letting it go you wouldn't have said anything.

 

Projecting much?

Maybe I do maybe I don't. But what you sayed was still a big joke to me. Was hard not to point it out. 

[EFreethought]

12 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I find this interesting because back when I was doing these kinds of practices I thought the LDT was relatively simple to access and activate but I always have had a lot of issue with the MDT but I had never heard anyone articulate this and it's interesting to think about now.

 

A bit OT: I think I read somewhere that in (at least some) Indian systems a lot of people have an easier time opening up the higher chakras (like the head) and a harder time near the bottom; some gurus have a hard time getting people to go bottom up because a lot of people want to go for the quick success.

 

[NaturaNaturans]

Thank you for doing this, I think it is a good inisitive. I try to be open minded, but to be completly honest «born in wrong body,» is something I can not understand, since it is so foreign to me. Nothing wrong with that of course, and I do not doubt that it is genuine.

[NaturaNaturans]

question: do you think western cultures are deeply more dual in their views on gender then certain others? Thai would be a great example here.

[Maddie]

6 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Maybe I do maybe I don't. But what you sayed was still a big joke to me. Was hard not to point it out. 

 

I'm starting to think you're trolling me. I'm not going to talk to you anymore.