Transgender Q&A

[snowymountains]

There's no therapy and this is why it's not in the DSM. It's out of scope for therapy basically.

Therapy is not there to somehow make people be like other people would want them to be.

 

The only case where therapy has impact is when trauma caused a change in sexual preferences or gender. Therapy for trauma then may, change sexual preferences or gender but therapy never targets sexual preferences or gender per se and there's no such thing as therapy for sexuality or gender because they are not disorders.

 

The "therapies" for changing sexual preferences from the 1950s were built around creating guilt complexes and of course these "therapies" just made people miserable, the impact was that patients were disgusted to have homosexual sex but this of course didn't make them desire heterosexual sex.

Homosexuality was in the DSM for about 20 years because of some 1950s psychiatrists, while their ancestors ( eg Freud ) considered it a normal condition and their their successors also consider it a normal condition and removed it from the DSM.

It's really a sad story which really was a human rights violation.

[liminal_luke]

Is the situation analogous or different from what´s called "reparative therapy," psychological interventions designed with an aim to turn gay people straight?  I think reparative therapy still exists though it´s looked down upon in mainstream therapeutic circles and is illegal in some jurisdictions.

[snowymountains]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

Is the situation analogous or different from what´s called "reparative therapy," psychological interventions designed with an aim to turn gay people straight?  I think reparative therapy still exists though it´s looked down upon in mainstream therapeutic circles and is illegal in some jurisdictions.

 

It's illegal in most of the world, as it should be, it's actually harming people. Eg it often causes depression. It's not just that it doesn't work, it's harmful.

[Maddie]

I think this thread has been productive so far. There is a lot of misunderstanding about being trans as well as LGBTQ+ issues as well. Education is the answer! :-)

[liminal_luke]

What I think therapy can do is help people accept their nonconforming gender behaviors as OK.  Genuine transgenderism, as I understand it, is a deep rooted feeling of identity.  But I suspect that there are some people, especially children, who do not have a deep rooted sense that they are another gender but display lots of nonconforming gender behaviors, queeny boys and tomgirls.  These kids might mistakenly latch on to the transgender bandwagon rather that simply saying "I´m a boy that likes things that are generally thought of as girly" or vice versa.  Hopefully there is a lot of psychological evaluation before kids are started on the path to medical transitioning in order to weed out this possibility.  

Edited April 13 by liminal_luke

[blue eyed snake]

I grew up in a time were the whole thing was unheard of, i remember once I saw a person on a train that i was not able to figure out whether (s)he was man or woman. I probably stared, 11 years old at a guess, we had a nice conversation. I still remember because it was the first and only person i had that reminded me of myself, someone like me, it was glorious moment

 

But I never had a choice whether to change body (or mind), it was just like: this is what you are, figure out a way to live your life and without thinking I chose boy, that was good for me, the woman I did choose later ( under societal pressure i may add) has made me unhappy, was far more playing a role then being a man was.

 

And about surgery, our whole society is like that, don't like you big nose - cut. want bigger tits, fill up, bigger butt, Lift and fill. "nicer" female parts labiaplasty. Saggy from bearing kids, mommy makeover.

It makes me nauseous tbh

 

we are taught that the body is for us to change as we want it, in everything, as long as we have money to pay for it of course. Then when we get old and those scars play up and hurt, or the labiaplasty rips open during childbirth, then those nice doctors are not very nice anymore. 

Little intersex babies get surgery too- cut and you get stamped, this one is male, that one is female.

humanity is literally cut in 2 parts, man and woman he made them, and the small minded people will take care everybody gets pushed into that mould.

 

we do not learn to accept, to find out what we are.

I do not think i needed to have counseling to become a woman, i am okay as I am, i do not want any psych or counselor to try to change that. It's very different from the backlash of an abusive childhood in that aspect.

 

also I think there is a more spiritual part underlying what modern doctors call " genderdysphoria"

 

as it is who I am (at least temporary, in this life, but that is an aspect that no counselor that I know of weighs)

I am glad the time were i lived forced me to just muddle through best i could.

during my life i played both roles.I ended up thinking/living that its totally irrelevant whether I am woman or man. That feels as a satisfactory outcome.

 

oops, i got carried away

 

[snowymountains]

One has to consider above all what is a plausible therapy goal and how such a goal is set.

 

A therapy goal can be eg disorder treatment, counselling in a shorter term situation, or even self improvement. It is not making someone like their neighbour would like them to be.

 

Goals are also set jointly between the therapist and the client, not unilaterally by the therapist.

 

The therapist also works according to the code of ethics of their professional body. Eg a therapist cannot agree, even if asked by the client to something there's no therapy for, eg change in sexual preferences, gender. Otherwise they'd be basically selling snake oil.

 

There's no such thing as mandatory therapy btw unless there are sufficient grounds to imply chances of serious self harm or harming others.

Edited April 13 by snowymountains

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

There's no such thing as mandatory therapy btw unless there are sufficient grounds to imply chances of serious self harm or harming others.

 

In the case of children, I think there should be some sort of in-person psychological evaluation before someone is given puberty blockers or cross-gender hormones.  Do you disagree?

[snowymountains]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

 

In the case of children, I think there should be some sort of in-person psychological evaluation before someone is given puberty blockers or cross-gender hormones.  Do you disagree?

 

This is not therapy, it's prescribed meds, it's different 🙂. Psychiatrists prescribe meds, not therapists nor psychologists.

It's also about how a process should be described by law, not at any professional's discretion, the professional just opines, they don't define the process.

 

In any case, imo there should input from a professional as part of a process. By more than one professional actually and from different clinics, to avoid biases from professionals, in either direction.

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

In the case of children, I think there should be some sort of in-person psychological evaluation before someone is given puberty blockers or cross-gender hormones.  Do you disagree?

 

Absolutely 

[blue eyed snake]

11 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

One has to consider above all what is a plausible therapy goal and how such a goal is set.

 

yes, but my experience has taught me that the therapists I met had their own ideas. Reason for coming was depression and some  ingrained behavioral patterns from my childhood.

Next they pushed feminine clothing and lipstick and whatever nonsense on me because they thought it would make me feel better. When i patiently explained it was totally beside the point i was labelled an unwilling difficult patient that did not understand the real problems, their problem was nicely solved.

the client was unwilling and not able to understand her problems

 

11 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

A therapy goal can be eg disorder treatment, counselling in a shorter term situation, or even self improvement. It is not making someone like their neighbour would like them to be.

 

at the moment were fighting to get ABA out of our institutions, ABA is making autistic children behave as the children of the neighbors. One in three kids gets traumatized by it. and still it i sold as preferred treatment.

 

11 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Goals are also set jointly between the therapist and the client, not unilaterally by the therapist.

 

How nice it must be to live in such a fairyparadise, the reality from the side of the patients often is very different 

 

11 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

The therapist also works according to the code of ethics of their professional body. Eg a therapist cannot agree, even if asked by the client to something there's no therapy for, eg change in sexual preferences, gender. Otherwise they'd be basically selling snake oil.

 

we have some christian therapist doing conversion therapy for trans-kids, oh, they do not call it such, but thats what they do.

they do not seem to be much bothered by ethical codes other then their christian beliefsystem.

 

11 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

There's no such thing as mandatory therapy btw unless there are sufficient grounds to imply chances of serious self harm or harming others.

 

when you live in whatever institution every fucking therapy can be made mandatory on the whim of the  psychologist and other personnel working there.

 

sorry to disabuse you of some naive thoughts.

 

 

[snowymountains]

12 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

yes, but my experience has taught me that the therapists I met had their own ideas. Reason for coming was depression and some  ingrained behavioral patterns from my childhood.

Next they pushed feminine clothing and lipstick and whatever nonsense on me because they thought it would make me feel better. When i patiently explained it was totally beside the point i was labelled an unwilling difficult patient that did not understand the real problems, their problem was nicely solved.

the client was unwilling and not able to understand her problems

 

 

at the moment were fighting to get ABA out of our institutions, ABA is making autistic children behave as the children of the neighbors. One in three kids gets traumatized by it. and still it i sold as preferred treatment.

 

 

How nice it must be to live in such a fairyparadise, the reality from the side of the patients often is very different 

 

 

we have some christian therapist doing conversion therapy for trans-kids, oh, they do not call it such, but thats what they do.

they do not seem to be much bothered by ethical codes other then their christian beliefsystem.

 

 

when you live in whatever institution every fucking therapy can be made mandatory on the whim of the  psychologist and other personnel working there.

 

sorry to disabuse you of some naive thoughts.

 

 

 

No sorry, there is such a thing as code of conduct and whoever violates it can lose their license and accreditation.

 

If there's a therapist doing illegal therapies ( I'm assuming they're illegal where you live ), then they should be reported to their professional body and additionally a legal process should start.

Nobody's exempt from the law. Abuses in either direction like eg in an infamous UK clinic ( in the opposite direction ) aren't left unchecked.

 

Inside an institution it's different because civil rights have been effectively suspended. The most common reasons for entry in an institution still are these two conditions ( danger of self harm or harming others ).

Edited April 13 by snowymountains

[liminal_luke]

31 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

when you live in whatever institution every fucking therapy can be made mandatory on the whim of the  psychologist and other personnel working there.

 

 

So your former psychologists didn´t think you were very ladylike?  

[Taomeow]

So what I'm gleaning from some of the responses is that talking therapies that used to attempt to change the mind were horrible and unnatural (couldn't agree more), but sex change treatments currently used are natural and problem-free.  And also, that those surgical and hormonal treatments treat something that is not a disorder to begin with.  

 

Good to know.  

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

 

Quote

So your former psychologists didn´t think you were very ladylike?  

 

thats one way of putting it

 

maybe they had a problem with it, I don't

 

I prefer dressing in jeans with a shirt or jeans with a pulllover and anybody that tells me I should be more feminine to be happy can get some words from me

 

Spoiler

 

Edited April 14 by blue eyed snake

[blue eyed snake]

36 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

No sorry, there is such a thing as code of conduct and whoever violates it can lose their license and accreditation.

 

of course I know that, i formerly was a child psychologist. But they do not sell it as conversiontherapy, but as prayersesssion or something like that.

 

besides the parents send the kids so nobody is going to comply

 

36 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

If there's a therapist doing illegal therapies ( I'm assuming they're illegal where you live ), then they should be reported to their professional body and additionally a legal process should start.

Nobody's exempt from the law. Abuses in either direction like eg in an infamous UK clinic ( in the opposite direction ) aren't left unchecked.

 

yes, in the ideal world it would be, but the world is not ideal and I regularly hear the side of patients and their crying mothers,.

Not nice, but not much can be done as it is the word of the patient against that of the therapist, the powerinbalance is enormous and most people are not able to endure the added stressor of a formal complaint.

 

36 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Inside an institution it's different because civil rights have been effectively suspended. The most common reasons for entry in an institution still are these two conditions ( danger of self harm or harming others ).

 

yes, and even there it's getting worse, they now want to put everybody with a psychological problem and an IQ lower then 85 under that rule. 

 

thats deemed cheaper

 

( for they you can read thepeole who hold the money)

[liminal_luke]

@Taomeow

 

I sense you have some opinions about this topic.  If you´d care to share (and I know there are plenty of good reasons why you might not care to) I´d be interested to know...

 

what do you think is responsible for the apparently recent steep rise in transgenderism?

how do you think helping professionals should try to assist people presenting with gender dysphoria?

 

There are times when wise cats stay silent, so no pressure if you´d rather not opine on this topic.

 

[snowymountains]

9 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

of course I know that, i formerly was a child psychologist. But they do not sell it as conversiontherapy, but as prayersesssion or something like that.

 

besides the parents send the kids so nobody is going to comply

 

 

yes, in the ideal world it would be, but the world is not ideal and I regularly hear the side of patients and their crying mothers,.

Not nice, but not much can be done as it is the word of the patient against that of the therapist, the powerinbalance is enormous and most people are not able to endure the added stressor of a formal complaint.

 

 

yes, and even there it's getting worse, they now want to put everybody with a psychological problem and an IQ lower then 85 under that rule. 

 

thats deemed cheaper

 

( for they you can read thepeole who hold the money)

 

Ok we're getting down to how the sector is regulated which is off topic, so I'll keep it short. In some jurisdictions there's a set of laws for using a title such as psychologist, psychotherapist etc and a separate set of laws for providing these services ( even without advertising as such/using the title ). I can't know the law wherever you live nor the precedents nor if there's a legal gap. But in most countries the idea is that these persons should face consequences even if they call it prayer or whatevs. The parents may agree but if social services were aware, they might not had agreed.

 

I can't know the law wherever you live but usually there are checks and balances, maybe an anonymous report to social services suffices to set the wheels in motion.

As you were a child psychologist I'm sure that you know the law in your jurisdiction ( and probably know how to report this person ).

 

In a context outside an institution, the therapist holds zero power, and actually they should not hold any power.

Now there might be some implicit power if the wrong type of transference has developed between the therapist and the client.

But ultimately all it takes is for the client to walk out the door.

I had had a therapist who violated the code of ethics, I called them out and found another one. I didn't file a report because I didn't sense malevolence, but I did walk out.

 

What you're describing is overinstitutionalisation, I don't doubt what you say and it sounds horrendous but it would violate rights if they do not harm their selves or others.

I'd expect something like what you describe not to pass or stay forever, provided it's a democratic country with strong institutions and an independent justice system.

[snowymountains]

40 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

So what I'm gleaning from some of the responses is that talking therapies that used to attempt to change the mind were horrible and unnatural (couldn't agree more) 

 

 

 

Indeed, it's out of scope for talk therapy, and past efforts were a disaster.

 

41 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

but sex change treatments currently used are natural and problem-free.  And also, that those surgical and hormonal treatments treat something that is not a disorder to begin with.  

 

Good to know.  

 

 

 

Not exactly, there should be checks and balances in these processes and given it's an irreversible process these checks and balances need to be strong. Eg why not have 3 psychiatrists opine, all from different clinics.

Otherwise, with weak checks and balances how do you protect a teenager who might change their mind in just a year?

 

But for someone who passes these checks and balances, then yes they should be able to go through hormonal therapies and surgery.

[Taomeow]

57 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

@Taomeow

 

I sense you have some opinions about this topic.  If you´d care to share (and I know there are plenty of good reasons why you might not care to) I´d be interested to know...

 

what do you think is responsible for the apparently recent steep rise in transgenderism?

 

 

Not on this specific topic as much as on this among all others I'm not very trusting of the motives of those who promote anything that happens to be fantastically profitable for the medical cartel.  The minds of the recipients of any and all of their offerings are manipulated very skillfully, in every possible area, and I'm not saying all of their offerings are corrupted by ulterior motives (money, power, 'fame and fortune' as a taoist would put it) -- but failing or avoiding to consider them as a factor is IMO a mistake in many cases. 

 

I don't know how sex/gender dysphoria would be different in this respect from a multitude of over-diagnosed, over-treated, mis-treated conditions going hand in hand with a multitude of under-diagnosed, under-treated, and again mis-treated conditions.  I could give a million examples...  For instance, antibiotics resistance is directly responsible for millions of deaths every year, yet research into new antimicrobials has been stagnating for decades, because, to quote a PubMed publication titled "There Is No Market for New Antibiotics,"  "By the early 1980s, private investment in antimicrobial research ebbed as a result of (...) a broader reorientation of private research and development (R&D) towards more focused investment in expensive yet lucrative noncommunicable (e.g., cancer and lifestyle) medications. The decline in private investment was exacerbated by the parallel closure of formerly successful public R&D efforts, as a result of the contemporary political emphasis on privatization and marketplace-oriented research."  In other words, they figured they get more bang for their buck if they invest in chronic conditions requiring continuous indefinite (often lifelong) use of their medications.  No one is interested in financing whatever can be cured by efficient new antimicrobials, hence their nonresearch, nondevelopment, and nonexistence.   (And no media>public outcry despite an incomparably wider population affected.)  Nothing personal -- they just don't care if millions die from this nonresearch and nondevelopment, as long as they can develop something that guarantees repeat customers.  

 

On the other hand, any agile kid bored with school will be diagnosed with ADHD in the blink of an eye -- and the fact that it was proved in court (sic) that there was indeed a conspiracy (sic) entered in by pharmaceutical companies and doctors aimed at overdiagnosing this condition was only mentioned in small print somewhere no one is looking...  except the likes of me of course, because if I trust, I trust, and if I don't, I look closer.  Cats and curiosity, you know... except I believe the proverb is misguided.  Curiosity actually saved many a cat.  They investigate instead of rushing into things headlong...  but don't let me digress.  

 

So, I do believe that one has to look very very VERY closely in each case, and I agree with Snowmountains that 

 

48 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

there should be checks and balances in these processes and given it's an irreversible process these checks and balances need to be strong. Eg why not have 3 psychiatrists opine, all from different clinics.

Otherwise, with weak checks and balances how do you protect a teenager who might change their mind in just a year?

         

Which of course would only be working if the psychiatrists weren't all indoctrinated and kickbacked in exactly the same standard of care, otherwise one or three or thirty is all the same.  They will uphold whatever standard they are instructed to uphold and won't rock the boat.  How do you protect a teenager, let alone a child (it's puberty blockers for children as young as 6, 7, 8 that are part of the current approach that make me go, Jesus quilt-knitting Christ...)  in this situation?  Like in any other -- keep your fingers crossed and spit thrice across the left shoulder?..  I've heard stories (youtube had many interviews, don't know about now, may have been censored) from young people who were brainwashed by parents who wanted a boy/wanted a girl and wouldn't give up despite the fact that the child they got was not the one they desired; by peers; by their own mistaking, due to young age and inexperience, of a plethora of gender-nonspecific behaviors and feeling (like an interest in a particular style of clothes of lack thereof) for specific for the opposite sex, and so on. 

 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

how do you think helping professionals should try to assist people presenting with gender dysphoria?

 

  

I don't know.  I asked a friend who is a psychiatrist with a lifetime of experience (in two very different countries) and a lot of compassion and caring.  She told me she could help in 19 cases out of 20, and the remaining 1 in 20 was a case of genuine sex dysphoria, far as she was able to tell.  I have no idea what these figures signify in the wider world though, but I suspect that out of some other 19 out of 20, some may not get a really good psychiatrist on their case -- let alone three of them -- and may regret the route they have taken.  It is not an easy thing to resolve by cavalry attacks on "bias" and hasty irreversible interventions.  But it's not different in this respect from many other things that are not easy to resolve.  I think modern society in general is a helluva lot better at creating problems than at solving them.

[Nungali]

Somewhere in my anthropological studies I came across a map of the world showing  ' permanent transgender identification in indigenous societies'   .... 'across the board'  , apparently , or as I like to say  ' across time and locations ' .  Seems its always been a part of the 'human condition' .

 

I will try and find it and post it .

 

 

[snowymountains]

25 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Which of course would only be working if the psychiatrists weren't all indoctrinated and kickbacked in exactly the same standard of care, otherwise one or three or thirty is all the same.  They will uphold whatever standard they are instructed to uphold and won't rock the boat.  How do you protect a teenager, let alone a child (it's puberty blockers for children as young as 6, 7, 8 that are part of the current approach that make me go, Jesus quilt-knitting Christ...)  in this situation?  Like in any other -- keep your fingers crossed and spit thrice across the left shoulder?..  I've heard stories (youtube had many interviews, don't know about now, may have been censored) from young people who were brainwashed by parents who wanted a boy/wanted a girl and wouldn't give up despite the fact that the child they got was not the one they desired; by peers; by their own mistaking, due to young age and inexperience, of a plethora of gender-nonspecific behaviors and feeling (like an interest in a particular style of clothes of lack thereof) for specific for the opposite sex, and so on.

 

The two top factors for getting a biased diagnosis from all three in favour would be harassment from activists and political pressure, not indoctrination.

With sufficient pressure and/or harassment a lot would cave.

With three gatekeepers from different clinics it's more difficult though.

 

But this mixing of politics and diagnosis is a societal problem, not one confined to the psy-sector.

The exact same thing can happen to engineers evaluating if there's anything wrong with a passenger airplane model. Who could imagine what will happen eg to a whistleblower..

 

On the other hand look at what happened to that UK clinic, some professionals had a spine, some parents filled lawsuits and it was over. A lot of children paid a dear price till it came to an end though.

 

 

Still a process is needed as there are people who genuinely need hormone therapy and surgery.

 

While there is abuse of the process, the ones who need the process can't be the ones who pay the price for those who abuse the process.

And at the end of the day you can't have 100 psychiatrists needed for a sign off.

 

I don't have easy answers, these are no longer technical matters, they're really about how society chooses to work.

 

Edited April 13 by snowymountains

[Sahaja]

Curious whether there is any impact or change  at the chromosomal level to transition. - xx to xy or xy to xx. I realize there is a small percentage of the population don’t fit into these general  chromosomal categories. 

[Maddie]

12 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Curious whether there is any impact or change  at the chromosomal level to transition. - xx to xy or xy to xx. I realize there is a small percentage of the population don’t fit into these general  chromosomal categories. 

 

No chromosomes stay the same.

[Maddie]

I think before things get to sidetracked and go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy or whatever else I want to redirect to what the actual issue is. 

 

A transgender person is born with a brain that is one gender and a body that is another sex. This isn't just speculation MRI scans show that the brain is actually different in transgender people. 

 

That being the case what doctors and psychologists say is the best and the only solution to what is called gender dysphoria is to transition one's body. 

 

I can attest that this is correct due to my personal experience. I tried to fight it over a long time by working on my mind and that did not work in fact it made my anxiety and depression much worse. Almost as soon as I acknowledged that I was transgendered and began hormone therapy and came out to live as I truly am this anxiety and depression ended immediately and I'm a much happier person in spite of all of the friction I get from society and my family. 

 

This is why people transition.

Edited April 13 by Maddie