Karma

[Maddie]

Something that I feel like I think about all the time that (to me at least, surprisingly) does not get discussed often is the topic of karma. 

 

I see karma in everything and am constantly working on it. I do so because at least with in Samsara it affects everything. Family, relationships, money, health, lifespan, ect. My primary practices are usually related to working on karma. To me everything is karma. In my opinion it answers almost every question. To me a good understanding of karma is essential because having one will affect just about everything we do and how we see the world. I think other cultures and traditions understand karma and interpret it to varying degrees, some better than others. 

 

For myself I began to become interested in karma about 12 years ago. I had recently gotten out of an abusive relationship that I had been in for years. I finally left and moved across the country and was eager to make a fresh start. When I got to my new location I was determined to be smarter, to do things better, to learn from my past. Well it didn't take too long before I found myself right in the middle of another abusive relationship that was shorter but just as traumatic. At the end of that relationship I decided to pause all relationships and reflect on what was going on. How could it be that no matter where I was, nor how smart it tried to be I kept ending up in abusive relationships? I began to reflect on all of my personal relationships of all kinds throughout my entire life. The family I was born into was abusive. Nothing I could have done to help that. My experiences as a child were often abusive. When I was a brand new young adult in the world I ended up in a cult which as also abusive. I began to see a common thread and realized that no matter how hard I tried to get away from abusive personal interactions, they always seemed to find me no matter where I was, or who I was with. 

 

After some time with these reflections I came to the conclusion that the common thread was karma. So I decided to not date anyone and work on my karma almost exclusively. I took over a good solid year of doing nothing but working on karma. After about a year or so of doing that I decided to try dating again. I was pleasantly surprised by the difference that I noticed. The people that I crossed paths with whether dating or just in general were on average much more kind.

 

That was basically the beginning of my contemplations on karma and my working with it. I find it fascinating how many things it explains and how useful it can be to work with. 

 

 

[Eduardo]

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Edited February 8 by Eduardo
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[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, Eduardo said:

All individual karma is mostly samskaras in action

 

Is that similar to sankara? Because in Buddhism it's the Sankara skandha that karma is made in.

[Eduardo]

El 22-11-2023 a las 17:09, Maddie dijo:

 

 

Edited February 8 by Eduardo
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[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Eduardo said:

Samskaras in Hindu philosophy are mental impressions, mental imprints that are caused by the acts of past lives and have their store in the inner layers of the subconscious mind.

For the same reason that there are premonitory dreams and dejavu that are more than anything glimpses of our mind of samskaras ready to be updated in external reality.

The samskaras or sanskaras in Buddhism make up the aggregate skhanda of mental states or impressions.

Patanjali's yoga sutra informs how to modify these imprints or internal mental states, in order to free oneself from karma.

The yogi who reaches deep meditative states can know his mental impressions or samskaras and therefore know his future.

 

Okay I had a feeling they might be similar since the word was so similar.

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Eduardo said:

All individual karma is mostly samskaras in action

 

What if anything do you do to work on karma?

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

What if anything do you do to work on karma?
 

I sit when I get up, and before I go to bed, sloppy half-lotus left and right (alternately), usually about 25 minutes.  My sitting is geared toward "just sitting":

 

At Zen centers they will usually advise newcomers to count their breaths 1 to 10 and then start over again, or to simply pay attention to their breathing, but as Shunryu Suzuki said:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.
 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

My practice is more like:

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:

 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

Am I addressing karma, with "just sitting"?  I hope so!  Still, as on Apech's thread about "emotions as the path", I feel lost in emotions in my relationships and social encounters, a lot.  At the same time, I have faith that "a presence of mind (retained) as the placement of attention shifts" can act, and that those actions are without karma.  So I practice to that, and confess my ancient and twisted karma whenever I am called upon to do so. 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Am I addressing karma, with "just sitting"?  I hope so! 

 

This is exactly one of the methods I did to work on karma. What I found is that when you sit still and quiet the mind the Sankaras are given a chance to arise or at least we're able to become more aware of them when the other busyness of the mind is quiet. And then when they arise we observe them and then as we observe them without involvement they dissolve.

[Mark Foote]

8 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

This is exactly one of the methods I did to work on karma. What I found is that when you sit still and quiet the mind the Sankaras are given a chance to arise or at least we're able to become more aware of them when the other busyness of the mind is quiet. And then when they arise we observe them and then as we observe them without involvement they dissolve.
 

I do that with regard to anger, especially.  I sit, and sometimes it takes days before I see some cause and effect, realize why compassion is a better or more appropriate response, and the anger dissolves.

 

[Maddie]

41 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I do that with regard to anger, especially.  I sit, and sometimes it takes days before I see some cause and effect, realize why compassion is a better or more appropriate response, and the anger dissolves.

 

 

Yes! This exactly!!

[Apech]

I find lo- jong ( mind training) specifically sending and receiving ( tonglen) the best way to work on karma - that and prayer of course.

[Eduardo]

El 22-11-2023 a las 18:05, Maddie dijo:

 

 

 

Edited February 8 by Eduardo
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[stirling]

 Your karma is the story about the world you create, constructed by the thinking mind. It is your list of things you are attached to or averse to. It is your cherished thoughts about how the world works - your carefully constructed theories, cosmologies, truisms, beliefs, etc. The problem, simply stated is:

 

Quote

To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind. - Seng-ts'an

 

In short, you create false dualities in your mental dialogue with your thoughts and opinions. How to stop creating karma, then? You first have to be tired enough of your struggle with the world to be willing to deconstruct your experience and be willing to let go of your cherished opinions. You must be willing to accept your naked, unfiltered experience as reality and stop clinging to or pushing away your concreted ideas about how you think things are. As Seng-ts'an says:

 

Quote

Things are objects because there is a subject or mind;
and the mind is a subject because there are objects.
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.
In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable
and each contains in itself the whole world. 
- from "Verses on the Faith Mind"
by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an

 

Get pointers and practice so that you understand the "unity of emptiness" and can recognize it in any moment. Once understood and recognized, learn to see the illusory landscape of subjects and objects that you reject or cling to, notice your personal story and how you create it, then learn to STOP creating it. Eventually, with some luck, there is complete insight and the whole conceit can be dropped. Either way, struggle/suffering are greatly reduced. 

[Salvijus]

You create what you desire. 

 

Your present experience is a result of desires (mostly unconscious) generated in the past. 

 

Your future is a result of what desires are you generating now

 

Desire consciously and you will create the life that reflects your deepest longing for truth, goodness, wholeness, harmony. 

 

Desire unconsciously and you will wonder why nothing satisfies you. 

 

How's that. I think i should write a book. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Salvijus

[steve]

I once had an insight into karma that I'll share FWIW. It has become something that continuously informs my life. 

 

It was a very abrupt and spontaneous experience. During meditation one evening I began to see the connections that thread through my life, through the lives of my ancestors and acquaintances, extending into the past, into the future and connecting everything to the present; like fine strands of a spider's web touching and sensing every action and consequence, every thing and every one without exception. I could see how my life is precisely what it is at this moment because of everything that has transpired and that not one piece of the puzzle is, or could possibly be, out of place. There was a deep sense of perfection and gratitude in how it has all come together to make me who and what I am. While I was aware that any one piece, or even the whole, could easily be judged as good or bad, harmful or helpful; in that moment judgement seemed irrelevant. The shear complexity and magnitude of the vast number of interactions and connections became so overwhelming to my mind that I felt as if it were going to explode or break down. Just as I felt I could take no more it spontaneously released, like a safety valve releasing pressure before a rupture, and as the vision passed I was left feeling shaken and vulnerable but also somehow whole and absolutely fine.

 

Ever since then I have been more cognizant of my relationships, in particular my actions and how they affect other living things. The sheer complexity and scale of karma make it difficult for me to approach the subject intellectually and my current approach is similar to what Mark and stirling describe. Rather than trying to figure it out, I trust in the openness and clarity that are present when I am able to allow the discursive mind to rest and open to the immediacy of the present moment. This openness gives rise to actions that are sometimes unexpected or counter-intuitive but somehow appropriate for the situation.

 

[dwai]

One can burn up “karma” through selfless service - that is the simplest and easiest way. Another way is through practices like tantra, yoga, and Daoist internal arts - which can often accelerate the flow of karmic results through the practitioner’s life, which can be quite unnerving if one is not prepared to deal with it. Another way is through devotion - surrender completely to your deity, they will take care of what is needed. 

[Nungali]

The best way to get good karma is to do conscious acts of  love support and assistance  ... with absolutely no  conception on any level of getting  anything good , rewards or appreciation  back  for it .

 

Good luck with that one !  

[Salvijus]

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Edited November 24, 2023 by Salvijus
Wrong thread

[Maddie]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

  ... with absolutely no  conception on any level of getting  anything good , rewards or appreciation  back  for it .

 

The Buddha taught the value of making merit intentionally.

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

The Buddha taught the value of making merit intentionally.

 

could it be at first like intentionally learning to ride a bike which after a while you don't hardly have to think about it?

[stirling]

9 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

could it be at first like intentionally learning to ride a bike which after a while you don't hardly have to think about it?

Where there is enlightenment the Noble Eightfold path arises effortlessly. This also what being in alignment with the dao means, acting directly from prajna with no ego to color action.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

The Buddha taught the value of making merit intentionally.

 

Ah ...., but I am a 'selective Buddhist ' . 

 

( I also got a bible with most of the pages ripped out    )

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

Where there is enlightenment the Noble Eightfold path arises effortlessly. This also what being in alignment with the dao means, acting directly from prajna with no ego to color action.

 

auto like was enough .... I  only get one .

 

 

Like like like like like like  ..........

[Nungali]

here is my simple view of karma .  recently, on my community , an email was sent out bringing to our attention that  new people and guests are not following the rules properly and doing this and that and 'is this how we want to live'  and   blah blah  etc .

 

I could not help myself  I had to respond   " Have you ever heard of karma ?    You guys, including directors have constantly broken rules yourselves   and its glaringly obvious yet you turn a blind eye to it when people in your 'click'  or extended family / friends  are  deemed somehow exempt .  People can see that .  Dont you know about 'setting an example '   by actions instead of words . "

 

karma to me means ; you dont do the right thing , you suffer the consequences ;  you pollute your drinking water ... you got polluted drinking water .  You pump smoke in the air , you got smokey air .  Yes, it seems like Nungali is pointing out the blindingly obvious ... doesnt stop us doing it  though does it .

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

The Buddha taught the value of making merit intentionally.
 

It's complicated.

 

 

The definition of right view depends in part on the definition of wrong view; the definition of wrong view was given as follows:
 

There is no (result of) gift ... no (result of) offering ... no (result of) sacrifice; there is no fruit or ripening of deeds well done or ill done; there is not this world, there is not a world beyond; there is no (benefit from serving) mother and father; there are no beings of spontaneous uprising; there are not in the world recluses and brahmans... who are faring rightly, proceeding rightly, and who proclaim this world and the world beyond having realized them by their own super-knowledge.
 

(MN III 71-78, Vol III pg 113-121)

 

“Beings of spontaneous uprising” appears to be a reference to fairy-like beings that spring into existence without parents (several classes of fairy-like beings were believed to exist in Vedic folklore; see notes, SN III 249, Pali Text Society III p 197).
 

Right view, said Gautama, is twofold. First, there is the right view which is exactly the opposite of wrong view; this, however, is the view “that has cankers, that is on the side of merit, that ripens unto cleaving (to new birth)”. The right view which is “[noble], supermundane, cankerless and a component of the way” is:
 

“Whatever ... is wisdom, the cardinal faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the component of enlightenment which is investigation into things, the right view that is a component of the Way in one who, by developing the [noble] Way, is of [noble] thought, conversant with the [noble] Way–this... is a right view that is [noble], cankerless, supermundane, a component of the Way.”
 

(Ibid)

 

(Making Sense of the Pali Sutta: the Wheel of the Sayings)

 

 

That sets up the following:

 

Where there have been deeds, Ananda, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the deeds. Where there has been speech–where there has been thought, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the speech–in the thought.
 

Either we of ourselves, Ananda, plan those planned deeds conditioned by ignorance, whence so caused arises personal weal and woe, or others plan those planned deeds that we do conditioned on ignorance, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Either they are done deliberately, or we do them unwittingly. Thence both ways arises personal weal and woe. So also is it where there has been speech, where there has been thought. Either we plan, speaking, thinking deliberately, or others plan, so that we speak, think unwittingly. Thence arises personal weal and woe. In these six cases ignorance is followed after.
 

But from the utter fading away and cessation of ignorance, Ananda, those deeds are not, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Neither is that speech, nor that thought. As field they are not; as base they are not; as wherewithal they are not; as occasion they are not, that so conditioned there might arise personal weal and woe.
 

(SN II text ii, 36, Pali Text Society SN II p 31-32)

"making merit intentionally"--as in the right view that ripens onto cleaving, resulting in personal weal and woe.  Not the right view that is part of the path of one who has "gone beyond".  As someone on this thread has already exclaimed, "good luck with that!" (to us all).

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Mark Foote