Whats your purpose/meaning or life?

[kakapo]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Agreed!  100%.  From my POV, it will need to be 100% biological.  But if they are able to overcome the inherent limitations of carbon or silicon or whatever, so-be-it.  I don't care at all about its outer-wrapper.  If it is thinking and feeling and learning like a human, then, it's "life".  No distinction is needed.  That would be bigotry, imo.

 

 

We are neural networks made out of carbon, if we mirror our minds in silicon then we've made people just the same.

[Daniel]

17 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

We are neural networks made out of carbon, if we mirror our minds in silicon then we've made people just the same.

 

I'm not arguing with you.  It would be the same.  But there are inherent limitations in the current "tech" which will need to be surrmounted.  When I consider the trends and limitations, it seems to me that the shortest path to skip over those limitations is to use different materials.  But, just as you said, and I agreed.  it's all the same.  When/if the AI catches up, my preference is that the "A" in AI get dropped all together.  Otherwise it's no different than any other form of racism and bigotry.

 

I would like to be very clear.  I am not arguing with you.  Are you arguing with me?

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, kakapo said:

You are welcome to read the story instead of watching the video.

 

https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~gamvrosi/thelastq.html

 

Nice story!  I really liked it.

 

6 hours ago, kakapo said:

I understand that asking someone to watch a 37 minute youtube video is asking a lot these days.

 

I think for something like this, definitely reading it is preferred for me.  But I can also understand the benefit of having it as a video, because there is very little possibility that the end is spoiled.  And the end makes the story great.  No spoilers.  No skipping ahead.  I feel very strongly that the author's intention should be respected.

 

5 hours ago, kakapo said:

It's got a twist ending that was relevant to his post about this situation being cyclical.

 

OK.  But is it cyclical?  I'm not so sure.  But we also can't discuss it too deeply, or even at all without spoiling it, right?

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Daniel

[kakapo]

12 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Nice story!  I really liked it.

 

 

I think for something like this, definitely reading it is preferred for me.  But I can also understand the benefit of having it as a video, because there is very little possibility that the end is spoiled.  And the end makes the story great.  No spoilers.  No skipping ahead.  I feel very strongly that the author's intention should be respected.

 

 

OK.  But is it cyclical?  I'm not so sure.  But we also can't discuss it too deeply, or even at all without spoiling it, right?

 

 

In the story it is cyclical yes 100%.

[Daniel]

21 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

In the story it is cyclical yes 100%.

 

But we can't discuss or debate it here.  Maybe without revealing anything, is there a way to connect it, the story, to the topic of the thread a little more closely, from your point of view?

[kakapo]

23 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

But we can't discuss or debate it here.  Maybe without revealing anything, is there a way to connect it, the story, to the topic of the thread a little more closely, from your point of view?

 

So the point of life is exactly what happens in the story.

 

That's why we exist.

 

At least imho.

[NaturaNaturans]

On 22.10.2023 at 10:43 PM, Daniel said:

 

I'm not arguing with you.  It would be the same.  But there are inherent limitations in the current "tech" which will need to be surrmounted.  When I consider the trends and limitations, it seems to me that the shortest path to skip over those limitations is to use different materials.  But, just as you said, and I agreed.  it's all the same.  When/if the AI catches up, my preference is that the "A" in AI get dropped all together.  Otherwise it's no different than any other form of racism and bigotry.

 

I would like to be very clear.  I am not arguing with you.  Are you arguing with me?

 

I sometimes wonder why we call it artificial intelligence because I don't see what is artificial about it. There can be no doubt that most of us have read, watched, or listened to artificial (not made by humans) content.

And then we look at what we would consider "lower life" is capable of:

 

There can be little doubt that thing is conscious. And then we have this:

The world is alive, no doubt. In English I see you use both the terms awareness and consciousness, while in my language we only have one word for both concepts. Are they different?

[Cobie]

20 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

… artificial (not made by humans) …

(my highlighting)

Huh  … artificial means man-made https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/artificial

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Cobie

[NaturaNaturans]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

(my highlighting)

Huh  … artificial means man-made https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/artificial

 

Apologies, you are right. What intented to wrote was natural. Ill edit it in now.... no that doesn't work. What I am trying to get across: I do not see an obvious difference between any form of organic intelligence, and the man made (AI) seems intelligent enough to fool us already. If we are going to to question if it is intelligent, we might as well start questioning each other. Cogito ergo sum. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Apologies …

Thanks.  
 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Cobie

[Dedicated]

Man's search for meaning comes to mind by Frankl. He had his main points like, there are decent people, romantic love, freedom to choose ones attitude.

I'm a philosophy graduate. To make sense of what I studied I settled on the importance of morality.

There are two types of good, life affirming and pure.

[NaturaNaturans]

1 hour ago, Dedicated said:

Man's search for meaning comes to mind by Frankl. He had his main points like, there are decent people, romantic love, freedom to choose ones attitude.

I'm a philosophy graduate. To make sense of what I studied I settled on the importance of morality.

There are two types of good, life affirming and pure.

Would you mind elaborating?

[Nahfets]

To ascend into light and love and fight those feeding off and sabotaging other species and races divine right to ascend

Edited October 26, 2023 by Nahfets

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I sometimes wonder why we call it artificial intelligence

 

Because it is a pattern matching algorithm which reflects the attitude of the question and the trainer.  It is not actually intelligent in any way.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It mimics intelligence because that is what it has been trained to do.  But part of that is a randomness algorithm which attempts to make it more engaging and its conversation more natural.  But this also sets it up to make erroneous conclusions.  It can also be easily manipulated.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

 

{Deleted - duplicate post}

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Apologies, you are right. What intented to wrote was natural. Ill edit it in now.... no that doesn't work. What I am trying to get across: I do not see an obvious difference between any form of organic intelligence, and the man made (AI) seems intelligent enough to fool us already.

 

You can count ME out of that 'us'  .

 

Quote

If we are going to to question if it is intelligent, we might as well start questioning each other. Cogito ergo sum. 

 

Ummmmmm    ...... 

 

you see, that is actually the crux of our problems  .... some of us are very STUPID !  that is , the opposite of intelligent .

 

An intelligent person .... finds solutions to their problems that benefit themselves  and everyone else .

 

A stupid person ..... tries to solve their problems with solutions that benefit neither themselves  nor anyone else  , and in fact , often cause harm and damage , without solving the original problem at all .

 

.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Dedicated said:

Man's search for meaning comes to mind by Frankl. He had his main points like, there are decent people, romantic love, freedom to choose ones attitude.

I'm a philosophy graduate. To make sense of what I studied I settled on the importance of morality.

There are two types of good, life affirming and pure.

 

Oh ?  What is  'pure good'  ? 

[NaturaNaturans]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

You can count ME out of that 'us'  .

 

 

Ummmmmm    ...... 

 

you see, that is actually the crux of our problems  .... some of us are very STUPID !  that is , the opposite of intelligent .

 

An intelligent person .... finds solutions to their problems that benefit themselves  and everyone else .

 

A stupid person ..... tries to solve their problems with solutions that benefit neither themselves  nor anyone else  , and in fact , often cause harm and damage , without solving the original problem at all .

 

.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2387343-ai-recreates-clip-of-pink-floyd-song-from-recordings-of-brain-activity/
It is comming. Privacy is gone. Hope everyone else is eqaully crazy.

 

————

Back to topic, the meaning of life. Somehow it manages to be the most stupid, important and impossible question at the same time. But even If there is no meaning, no right or wrong, i guess i should listen to my inner voice, try to be present and grow in to my potential.

[Dedicated]

11 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

elaborating

Frankl's book is a good read. The first half anyway. The second half is more technical, but the first half is one of the best things written. I don't want to spoil it by saying much more. But from his biographical account he shares he finds some people are decent and some people are not. And that with extreme loss of freedom, he felt we still posess a freedom to choose our attitude. From researching more about Frankl I discovered he holds romantic love in high esteem, which is rare and refreshing.

 

Morality was my answer to the question of utopia. That's what studying philosophy at my uni was mainly about, utopian visions. And all kinds of questions are thrown up. And to calm my mind after this exposure was to recognise morality in itself is the answer. Little quibbles over variations are not the point, that's a smaller detail. But to highlight morality as the way to guide us. When a body of people strive for a moral society, most problems will be resolved. 

 

Pure good and life affirming I talk about in my next post below 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Dedicated

[Dedicated]

Hiya Nungali.

 

Two types of good.

 

Life affirming is conditional, like a beer after a hard day's and relaxing with work friends.

 

Pure good is always good, like mineral rich water from a clean source in a light blue glass bottle shared with a fellow seeker.

 

Life affirming good is celebrated by most people. Pure good is kept away from the crowd.

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

Back to topic, the meaning of life. Somehow it manages to be the most stupid, important and impossible question at the same time. But even If there is no meaning, no right or wrong, i guess i should listen to my inner voice, try to be present and grow in to my potential.
 

 

A different take on the purpose of life--living a life that allows for the free placement of attention, even when the location of attention is the source of activity.

Bits and pieces of my latest post, over on zenmudra.com/zazen-notes:

 

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

... When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

... The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration.  Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow.

 

... The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”:

 

... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:

 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)
 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

A different take--living a life that allows for the free placement of attention, even when the location of attention is the source of activity.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Mark Foote

[NaturaNaturans]

So, i made this thread after a strong feeling of peace and unity. When the sensation ended, i fell a deep longing to return.

My old world view was shattered, and i tried to construct a new one. I was not able to. I fell in to nihilism, believing there is no purpose and no one got the answer. It has been depressing to be honest.

Many say the meaning of life is to find your own meaning. But how is that possible? 
i am reading Thus spoke Zarathustra at the moment. I love it so far. I think it might contain the answers i am desperatley searching for (the road Out of the desert), and think i will male a thread about it when im finished.

Tagging @Nungaliand @Daniel to see If they have anything to add.

[NaturaNaturans]

The bearer of bad news 🐻

https://youtu.be/dslafN9afMg?si=xgyjDx5q3sn1Y2rR

[Daniel]

17 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Tagging @Daniel to see If they have anything to add.

 

What you're experiencing is natural and normal.  This too will pass.   You're among friends here who have been through it or, more accurately, are currently going though it with you.  It's an ongoing process of revelation.  

 

1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said:

The bearer of bad news 🐻

https://youtu.be/dslafN9afMg?si=xgyjDx5q3sn1Y2rR

 

This can be flipped into good news, but it takes practice. 

 

Everything that is "good" is surrounded, on all sides, in all manner, and in all dimensions by what is "not-good".  That is how "good" is defined in the mind.  The word "good" ( godt? ) is just a symbol in the mind.  The mind attaches to this idea and focuses on it, but, simultaneously it is also considering the many infinite variations of "not-good" and skipping over those instead focusing only on the "good".  

 

When someone begins exploring the nature of reality, either intentionaly or their mind naturally awakens to it, it's completely normal to realize, either right away or shortly after, that everything they know and love is being eclipsed by infinite "darkness".  It's like an endless desert lacking any water.  It's an analogy used in the Zohar.   But, if that desert is understood, zooming out, the nearly infinite negations of "not-good"... they're all pointing to the same thing.  There's nearly infinite versions of "not-good", but they're all pointing and concentrating and defining the "good".  This is the road map embedded in the desert itself.  And therefore, even the "not-good" is "good" if it is understood from the proper perspective.

 

If the bearer of bad news is speaking truth, and I think it is, then, the feeling of dissappointment and depression is itself a map out of the desert.  The feeling.  Being sensitive to those feelings can lead a person out, up, in, wherever they choose to go.

 

17 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

anything to add.

 

At risk of sounding like obi-wan-kenobe, trust your feelings.  If there are conceptual frameworks that are erasing those feelings, discouraging those feelings, I would avoid those like the plague. 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

So, i made this thread after a strong feeling of peace and unity. When the sensation ended, i fell a deep longing to return.

My old world view was shattered, and i tried to construct a new one. I was not able to. I fell in to nihilism, believing there is no purpose and no one got the answer. It has been depressing to be honest.

Many say the meaning of life is to find your own meaning. But how is that possible? 
i am reading Thus spoke Zarathustra at the moment. I love it so far. I think it might contain the answers i am desperatley searching for (the road Out of the desert), and think i will male a thread about it when im finished.

Tagging @Nungaliand @Daniel to see If they have anything to add.

 

 

An interesting concept, I am wondering why you chose that phrase .

 

I see Daniel echoes it : 

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

... eclipsed by infinite "darkness".  It's like an endless desert lacking any water.. .

 

 

 

The reason I find your choice of words interesting is that is the scenario one finds oneself in  (in some groups )  at the very first level of initiation is   ' the wanderer in the wilderness '   - and in these cases, specifically, a desert , and enacted at 'Midnight' .   Its not that there is not any water at all , there is   but you dont know how to find it . Then (in the ceremony )   you come across a 'helper'  ( they might not seem like that at all, at first , as to them,  you are 'unknown' )  that leads you to a place where there is water  (symbolising knowledge  sustenance , life, etc . )  held by a 'tribe' , group , camp, oasis , etc . They also have ways, customs and knowledge that they will share , if you pass  the 'trust test ' .   The first series of initiations are done in this scenario .

 

This is  a tradition within some  western mystery/ initiatory schools that has an 'historical mythology' back to the  Templars , Crusades and the Middle - East   (hence the desert )  but what I find remarkable is the similarities between this and those in the initiation ceremonies of the Central Desert Area of Australia . of course, in these , it is not symbolic .... its your very life that is dependant  on this process and   knowledge . 

  ( When European explorers tried to open up the interior of Australia , most failed and ended up dying of thirst , yet the water was there .... they just didnt have the skill and background training to find it . It was not until a band of smarter ones , sought the help of the first Aboriginals they came across , virtually starving and dying of thirst , they came upon a large number of people harvesting grain , making 'haystacks '  .... in the 'desert'  !  They where offered water , they bought large flat wooden bowls of water to the horses ( rather remarkable in itself , since they would have seen nothing even like a horse before, and it is a large animal to them ) and given  bread and roast duck .   This too is similar to what is enacted in the first initiation process .

 

Some might find the  central idea about  ' Dune '  and the 'Freman'  ( free man ) interesting in this regard  .