Contradictory Behaviour of Modern People

[VELLY]

I am often fascinated by the behavior of people in the modern world. There are numerous contradictions in their actions and beliefs. For instance, I have a friend who holds a government position but engages in corrupt practices. Surprisingly, he also donates a significant amount of money. He has developed his own set of values, which can be seen as contradictory. He argues that donating the money earned through corruption absolves him of any wrongdoing, as the act of giving back mitigates the harm caused. I find this way of thinking truly astonishing.

This example is just one among many. Recently, I had a conversation with a friend about adultery, and he expressed the view that it is wrong to initiate such actions. However, if a woman approaches or shows interest, he believes it would be acceptable to engage in such behavior. These double standards are prevalent in various aspects of people's lives. Many individuals who appear to be devoutly religious or spiritual also struggle with strong desires and lust. People have a knack for justifying their own questionable behaviors.

I must admit that I, too, have found myself in conflicting situations at times. This constant exposure to contradictory behavior has left me thoroughly confused. Is morality not an integral part of spirituality? Can a person with low moral standards still consider themselves highly spiritual? 

[Gerard]

1. Look at the orators in our republics; as long as they are poor, both state and people can only praise their uprightness; but once they are fattened on the public funds, they conceive a hatred for justice, plan intrigues against the people and attack the democracy. (Aristophanes)

 

2. The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. (Tacitus)

 

3. Never attempt to win by force what can be won by deception. (Machiavelli)

 

4. It is not the young people that degenerate; they are not spoiled till those of mature age are already sunk into corruption. (Montesquieu)

 

 

[VELLY]

That is all true @Gerard. However the question remains : 

If morality is subjective, then how come karma ( or laws of universe) work?

Are morality and spirituality interconnected? 

[Lairg]

"moral (adj.)

..... directly from Latin moralis "proper behavior of a person in society," literally "pertaining to manners," 

 

Thus morality is the acceptable customs of that society

 

Karma however occurs when entities cause discomfort for the Entity that uses a solar system, galaxy or universe as its body of incarnation.   

 

It may also be that causing comfort to such an Entity generates positive karma

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Lairg

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, VELLY said:

I am often fascinated by the behavior of people in the modern world. There are numerous contradictions in their actions and beliefs. For instance, I have a friend who holds a government position but engages in corrupt practices. Surprisingly, he also donates a significant amount of money. He has developed his own set of values, which can be seen as contradictory. He argues that donating the money earned through corruption absolves him of any wrongdoing, as the act of giving back mitigates the harm caused. I find this way of thinking truly astonishing.

This example is just one among many. Recently, I had a conversation with a friend about adultery, and he expressed the view that it is wrong to initiate such actions. However, if a woman approaches or shows interest, he believes it would be acceptable to engage in such behavior. These double standards are prevalent in various aspects of people's lives. Many individuals who appear to be devoutly religious or spiritual also struggle with strong desires and lust. People have a knack for justifying their own questionable behaviors.

I must admit that I, too, have found myself in conflicting situations at times. This constant exposure to contradictory behavior has left me thoroughly confused. Is morality not an integral part of spirituality? Can a person with low moral standards still consider themselves highly spiritual? 

 

Certainly !   All sorts of people with all sorts of faults and moral decay consider themselves spiritual . 

 

besides, nowadays all you have to do is declare you are spiritual on social media and ..... you are spiritual .

 

A person can consider themselves all sorts of things .... their internal considerations are the pre form of the words they issue , and not necessecarily backed up by any actions whatsoever . . .  that seems a type of plague at the moment .

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, VELLY said:

That is all true @Gerard. However the question remains : 

If morality is subjective, then how come karma ( or laws of universe) work?

Are morality and spirituality interconnected? 

 

It seems like you are comparing a modern new age view about karma .   Morality is certainly subjective, being a societal model the individual is supposed to adopt .

 

The internal considerations , aside from this outward code (of morality) is ethics .

 

I am also curious as to how you define  'spirituality' .

[VELLY]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

It seems like you are comparing a modern new age view about karma .   Morality is certainly subjective, being a societal model the individual is supposed to adopt .

 

The internal considerations , aside from this outward code (of morality) is ethics .

 

I am also curious as to how you define  'spirituality' .

Morals are influenced by individual values, while ethics encompass broader societal expectations and norms. I am more concerned with morals here, let's say I find a wallet on the road. My moral values are such that I think it is a reward given by God and I decide to keep it. Whereas ethical standards emphasize returning lost items to the owner.

Many a times we know that something is wrong according to the rules set by society or religion yet we justify our wrongdoings by our own moral standards. 

What is confusing to me is that how does the cycle of karma work then? Does it boil down to intentions? But that is still confusing as I may do all types of wrong things without hurting anyone. Exploitation is a good example of this. I may misuse someone vulnerable for personal gains.

 

Spirituality for me is journey of connecting with someone greater than ourselves who guides us during good and bad times.In Bhakti Marg, individuals cultivate a deep and heartfelt love, devotion, and surrender to a chosen deity or a personal form of the divine. I see people with all kinds of bad behaviour reciting the name of God. I see them happy also. I just doubt God sometimes and cycle of Karma.

 

Kindly guide 

 

[Ajay0]

23 hours ago, VELLY said:

I must admit that I, too, have found myself in conflicting situations at times. This constant exposure to contradictory behavior has left me thoroughly confused. Is morality not an integral part of spirituality? Can a person with low moral standards still consider themselves highly spiritual? 

 

 High moral standards or virtuous conduct can also lead to spiritual development and  enlightenment.

 

I had created a thread on the female enlightened master Rajini Menon who had attained enlightenment solely through adherence to  virtuous conduct...

 

 

 

Swami Satchidananda considered meditation and virtuous conduct to be synonymous, while  Buddha had also stated that virtuous behavior is capable of attaining the highest , namely enlightenment or Buddhahood. 

 

These teachings negate philosophies like nihilism and existentialism which claim that values and virtues are abstract mental contrivances without relevance or significance of their own.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Ajay0

[S:C]

(deleted… did not seem useful after rereading)

Edited July 8, 2023 by stellarwindbubble

[Indiken]

how will you test that karma exists ?

[S:C]

3 minutes ago, Indiken said:

how will you test that karma exists

Me?

 

By observation and reflection. 
Or do you mean that in the sense, that there is no individual ‚doer‘? 

[Indiken]

Just now, stellarwindbubble said:

Me?

 

and others.

 

Just now, stellarwindbubble said:

By observation and reflection. 

 

ok.

 

Just now, stellarwindbubble said:

Or do you mean that in the sense, that there is no individual ‚doer‘? 

 

no.

[S:C]

(… deleted, seemed not useful after rereading)

Edited July 21, 2023 by stellarwindbubble

[S:C]

.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by stellarwindbubble

[steve]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:12 AM, VELLY said:

These double standards are prevalent in various aspects of people's lives. Many individuals who appear to be devoutly religious or spiritual also struggle with strong desires and lust. People have a knack for justifying their own questionable behaviors.

I must admit that I, too, have found myself in conflicting situations at times. This constant exposure to contradictory behavior has left me thoroughly confused. Is morality not an integral part of spirituality? Can a person with low moral standards still consider themselves highly spiritual? 

 

My impression is that the vast majority of people identifying with being religious or spiritual are using their religion as an excuse, a balm, or an antidote for immoral and unethical behavior. In fact, some religions are inherently and irrevocably immoral, manipulating masses, creating slaves, and turning populations into fodder for geo-political objectives - christianity in the 21st century united states is a model for this travesty. I feel that morality is not an integral part of spirituality and the majority of folks I have encountered in my lifetime who consider themselves highly spiritual fail miserably by my personal measures of morality. I hold morality to be an individual standard, influenced by all forms of conditioning (religious, societal, cultural, parental, educational, etc...), but ultimately an individually determined standard. Skillful and dedicated spiritual practice can and does lead to a perspective in many people which is highly moral, this is spontaneous and unconditional empathy, but that is the exception rather than the rule in my limited experience. 

[steve]

On 7/7/2023 at 6:22 AM, VELLY said:

If morality is subjective, then how come karma ( or laws of universe) work?

 

I see karma as independent of morality. Morality and ethics are judgements made by humans, based on empathy and conditioning, which are superimposed on the workings of karma. It “works” when we apply consistent definitions and expectations of what is moral or ethical onto observed phenomena that are related through action and intention.

[Shadow_self]

On 07/07/2023 at 11:22 AM, VELLY said:

If morality is subjective, then how come karma ( or laws of universe) work?

 

The two are routinely conflated, but are distinct categories. Karma is basically that which fuels the soul to reincarnate

 

Habitual unconcious processes are what create karma and give it weight. It does not need to be a interpersonal thing.

 

Where morality and indeed ethics come into play is that when we operate according what spiritual traditions would refer to as objective moral values, these are (or should be at least) encouraging one to operate from a place of selflessness.

 

The act of karmic accumulation is usually a result of all the aforementioned unconcious behaviours reinforcing the sense of self and the acquired mind which are strengthened via repitition and a lack of awareness

 

This is why mindfulness is given so much weight (real mindfulness not the modern mcmindfulness). To become aware of the unconcious processes governing our thoughts, emotions and behaviours, and to root them out. When this happens one can then start to get at some of the karma.

 

The deeper stuff gets esoteric, when you need to start targeting heridetary karma and so on. Most would do well just to work with what they are creating for themselves and society in the here and now

 

On 07/07/2023 at 11:22 AM, VELLY said:

Are morality and spirituality interconnected? 

 

I think the above touches on that.

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, VELLY said:

Morals are influenced by individual values, while ethics encompass broader societal expectations and norms. I am more concerned with morals here, let's say I find a wallet on the road. My moral values are such that I think it is a reward given by God and I decide to keep it. Whereas ethical standards emphasize returning lost items to the owner.

Many a times we know that something is wrong according to the rules set by society or religion yet we justify our wrongdoings by our own moral standards. 

What is confusing to me is that how does the cycle of karma work then? Does it boil down to intentions? But that is still confusing as I may do all types of wrong things without hurting anyone. Exploitation is a good example of this. I may misuse someone vulnerable for personal gains.

 

Spirituality for me is journey of connecting with someone greater than ourselves who guides us during good and bad times.In Bhakti Marg, individuals cultivate a deep and heartfelt love, devotion, and surrender to a chosen deity or a personal form of the divine. I see people with all kinds of bad behaviour reciting the name of God. I see them happy also. I just doubt God sometimes and cycle of Karma.

 

Kindly guide 

 

 

Ha!  I got morals and ethics switched  around .

 

I still think your problem is with your particular understanding of karma  though .. On a Universal level, there is no 'wrong' ... thats a personal or societal  judgement  and tying karma in with that will certainly be confusing .  Karma , for me, is about action / reaction ; you pollute your water ... you might get sick .   You go into a rage ... your blood pressure might go up, create stress and disturb your peace of mind ,  etc.

 

Its not that you 'karma will get even ' with you  for your own 'wrongdoings ' .... you might suffer pangs of regret or  guilt .  But if you are one of those that seems to be able to inwardly justify their own bad behavior ... you might be smug and happy about what you are doing .

 

I do realize however , that many see 'karma' as similar to how Christians see  heaven and hell ;  as some type of  balance , reward or punishments relating to their own concepts of good and bad .

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Indiken said:

how will you test that karma exists ?

 

By observing the shit the human race is now in , and its causes .

[Indiken]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

By observing the shit the human race is now in , and its causes .

 

silly,

karma is related with reincarnation, so you have to test that reincarnation exists.

[Cobie]

15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

… Karma , for me, is about action / reaction ; you pollute your water ... you might get sick .  …

Exactly, imo that’s what it is. 
 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Cobie

[Nungali]

 

9 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

silly,

karma is related with reincarnation, so you have to test that reincarnation exists.

 

Well,   you did ask for our opinions .

 

Considering reincarnation , my definition also fits in with that .

 

(trying to be simple here ) If you incarnate to learn a particular thing  ... and you dont learn it  OR   the experience and knowledge did not imprint on 'that which survives' , then you might have to 'try again' .   - its not a punishment  for 'wrong doing' .

 

Now I am wondering what your 'test' is that shows reincarnation exists   ( perhaps it is  what people have said , or what scripture says ) ?

Edited July 8, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Exactly, imo that’s what it is. 
 

 

 

 

Another silly one  ! 

 

 

 

Many have that opinion after studying the source material .

 

However it does 'rub up against'   the New Age  'understanding ' of karma   

[Shadow_self]

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Karma , for me, is about action / reaction ; you pollute your water ... you might get sick .   You go into a rage ... your blood pressure might go up, create stress and disturb your peace of mind ,  etc.

 

On one level the relationship regards causality in irrefutable

 

But deduction to causality is a bit narrow in my opinion (due to the fact that karma can be inter-generational). Somebody else can do a crappy thing, and you can be on the end of that...

 

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Its not that you 'karma will get even ' with you  for your own 'wrongdoings ' .... you might suffer pangs of regret or guilt .

 

Im not  all that  sure of your background, but are you familar with what happens when conciousness does a 180?

 

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

  But if you are one of those that seems to be able to inwardly justify their own bad behavior ... you might be smug and happy about what you are doing .

 

But that "person" when removed from that which makes them "them" would have an extremely difficult time being smug and happy when being on the recieving end of their own actions

 

Im sure, given you background you are most familiar with death process (conceptually speaking if not practically)

 

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I do realize however , that many see 'karma' as similar to how Christians see  heaven and hell ;  as some type of  balance , reward or punishments relating to their own concepts of good and bad .

 

An important point here being karma creates those states  (though both are temporary, in a manner of speaking)

 

[Indiken]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

(trying to be simple here ) If you incarnate to learn a particular thing  ... and you dont learn it  OR   the experience and knowledge did not imprint on 'that which survives' , then you might have to 'try again' .   - its not a punishment  for 'wrong doing' .

 

careful, that's a New Age thinking. 

 

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

Now I am wondering what your 'test' is that shows reincarnation exists   ( perhaps it is  what people have said , or what scripture says ) ?

 

personal memory/experience.

 

How did Buddha confirm that reincarnation exist ?