A Conversation with ChatGPT about spiritual practice, no-mind, neidan and emotions

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

So it sounds like Awaken.

I dont think  @awaken  ever made up fake chinese neidan poetry AND THEN  lied about it being real. Because thats what the chatbot did.

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Is that true? Does ChatGPT actually surf the internet? It should be possible to test this by discussing something non-existent (for instance the "expargarate creature") here, and then after a while ask ChatGPT about it.

 

It may be even better if you ask ChatGPT to write something based on your description of exparagarate creatures.

 

18 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I dont think  @awaken  ever made up fake chinese neidan poetry AND THEN  lied about it being real. Because thats what the chatbot did.

Awaken can lie, you can lie and I can lie.  But ChatGPT doesn't lie and unable to lie.   "I am not programmed to provide answers that are intentionally misleading or to give only answers that are designed to be pleasing or agreeable....".    But I understand the expargarate creatures may have influenced the development of ChatGPT indirectly when smart phones are used to in the conversations.   Under that kind of communication, expargarate creatures may be able to lie.

 

[Taoist Texts]

12 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

  But ChatGPT doesn't lie and unable to lie. 

in my post above i conclusively  proved that it did

 

Quote

 

Arvind Narayanan, a computer science professor at Princeton, wrote on Twitter in December that he had asked ChatGPT some basic questions about information security that he had posed to students in an exam. The chatbot responded with answers that sounded plausible but were actually nonsense, he wrote.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/technology/ai-chatbots-disinformation.html

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[Master Logray]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CokS1YvpHLM/

 

This is funny.

 

[Wilhelm]

17 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

in my post above i conclusively  proved that it did

I wouldn't go that far.  Lying implies intention, and if AI has that then we've got another set of problems 😅

[Taoist Texts]

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Lying implies intention

 

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

if AI has that then we've got another set of problems 😅

i am telling you thats how SkyNet started

 

 

[Cobie]

17 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

… Lying implies intention …

Not always, see dictionary, “… to create a false or misleading impression … Statistics sometimes lie”

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Cobie

[Wilhelm]

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

i am telling you thats how SkyNet started

 

 

This possiblity never bothered me, cause I figured AI is being created under a materialist reductionist framework.  If they don't believe in chitta then they stand little chance of recreating it accidentally (and I was under the impression such a creation was impossible - the ultimate outcome for AI would just be a very efficient memory bot)

24 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

: to create a false or misleading impression

Statistics sometimes lie

Maybe you're right.  Creation still implies an original act to me, but not worth splitting hairs over

Edited February 12, 2023 by Wilhelm

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

It may be even better if you ask ChatGPT to write something based on your description of exparagarate creatures.

 

My test is meant to see if ChatGPT "understands" that expargarate creatures don't exist and would answer questions about them in such a way that the reader also gets it that they don't exist. If not than conspiracy theorists will have a ball. But I haven't got ChatGPT myself, and so I can't ask it anything. I'm interested to see how this thing develops, but I fear that it won't make the world a better place.

 

Or do you mean asking ChatGPT to help with writing an article about expargarate creatures, as a way to see if ChatGPT also takes its "facts" from requests by users?

Edited February 12, 2023 by wandelaar

[wandelaar]

Ha-ha-ha!!!

 

https://www.bing.com/search?q="expargarate+creature"+&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq="expargarate+creature"+&sc=8-23&sk=&cvid=F9BC03E171ED4962AC9703A5C67672D8&ghsh=0&ghacc=0&ghpl=

[Geof Nanto]

I very much like the information ChatGPT has given me both in my OP and about Black Liver and Rabbit Marrow. I first came across the terms ‘Raven’s Liver’ and ‘Rabbit Marrow’ a couple of decades ago when I read Cleary’s translation of a text traditionally attributed to Zhang Boduan ( Chang Po-tuan) titled Four Hundred Words on the Gold Elixir. Here is the relevant verse:

 

  14. THE RAVEN’S LIVER AND THE RABBIT’S MARROW—

GRAB THEM AND PUT THEM BACK IN ONE PLACE.

GRAIN AFTER GRAIN, FROM VAGUENESS TO CLARITY.

 

Cleary also translates Liu Yiming’s full commentary which I’ll leave for people to look up for themselves if they are interested. Of particular relevance here he says:  ““The raven's liver' is the vitality of the sun; liver is dark, which is associated with wood, and so symbolizes the essence of conscious knowledge. 'The rabbit's marrow' is the light of the moon; marrow is white, which is associated with metal, so it symbolizes the sense of real knowledge”.

 

Okay, so we have here some complex imagery of which Raven’s Liver as conscious knowledge and Rabbit’s Marrow as real knowledge is a key understanding.

 

ChatGPT obviously hasn’t sourced from Cleary’s translation because the phrasing is totally dissimilar even though the underlying interpretation of what Raven’s Liver and Rabbit Marrow represent is the same. Indeed, ChatGPT has presented what I consider to be particularly insightful information totally in line with Daoist alchemy. The verses are excellent, particularly this one:

 

Black liver and rabbit marrow are one and the same
Alternating between black and white within the inner realm
Clearing darkness and dissipating negative energy
Wisdom and brightness are elevated, enhancing spirituality
 

 If, as Taoist Texts suggests, ChatGPT has made up this commentary and the verses, then I’d call ChatGPT a Daoist sage; that this supercomputer has somehow transcended its programming and achieved enlightenment.  However I think it far more likely that ChatGPT is sourcing information not available on the web. ChatGPT says this itself: “I was trained on a massive corpus of text data from the web and other sources…” I suspect it was feed massive amounts of scholarship which isn’t available on the web.

 

In any case, I have no doubts from my brief usage of it, that it is a valuable research tool and a pleasure to use. If someone wants to totally dismiss it as Taoist Texts and others here seem to want to, then that’s their business. And I politely ask them to pursue it on a separate topic of their own. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Geof Nanto

[awaken]

20 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

It may be even better if you ask ChatGPT to write something based on your description of exparagarate creatures.

 

 

 

Awaken can lie, you can lie and I can lie.  But ChatGPT doesn't lie and unable to lie.   "I am not programmed to provide answers that are intentionally misleading or to give only answers that are designed to be pleasing or agreeable....".    But I understand the expargarate creatures may have influenced the development of ChatGPT indirectly when smart phones are used to in the conversations.   Under that kind of communication, expargarate creatures may be able to lie.

 

 

What evidence do you have that I lied?

It's unbelievable that I can't read Chinese, but say that people who can read Chinese are lying.

You lie too casually, don't you?

 

你有甚麼證據說我說謊?

自己看不懂中文，卻說看得懂中文的人說謊，真是不可思議。

你也說謊說得太隨意了吧

[Netero]

On 09/02/2023 at 12:06 AM, Wilhelm said:

Pretty remarkable stuff.  Looks like I might have to get the paid version to unlock the deepest mysteries though: 🤔

Don't be so hard on Coop (I named him so based on the similarity of Dale Cooper in Twin Peaks). He's a language based AI, which is a fancy way of saying interactive Google search index on steroids and meth. Very limited due to the information training, but still quite fun. Here's your original questions answered.
 

Quote

Me: Hey Coop. In Daoist Neidan, there's a concept called "black liver light". What is that?

 

Coop: 

In Daoist Neidan, "black liver light" refers to a term used to describe a specific stage in the alchemical transformation of the practitioner's physical body and energy system. This stage is said to occur when impurities and negative energy stored in the liver are being burned or purified. The liver is often seen as a key organ in Neidan practices, as it is believed to play a central role in the body's energy system and the regulation of emotions.

In this stage, practitioners may experience physical and emotional symptoms, such as headaches, fatigue, irritability, and anger, as the body is purifying itself of these negative energies. The "light" part of the term refers to the bright, luminous energy that is said to be generated during this process, which helps to further purify the body and cultivate spiritual awareness.

It's important to note that the concept of "black liver light" is highly symbolic and may vary in interpretation and significance among different schools of Daoist Neidan. It is generally seen as a necessary and transformative stage in the spiritual development of the practitioner, and is considered a positive sign of progress on the path to spiritual enlightenment.

 

Me: In Daoist Neidan, what is "rabbit marrow" and why does it come after "black liver light"?

 

Coop: 

In Daoist Neidan, the concept of "rabbit marrow" is another term used to describe a stage in the alchemical transformation of the practitioner's physical body and energy system. It is said to follow the "black liver light" stage and is considered to be a more advanced stage in the spiritual development of the practitioner.

The "rabbit marrow" stage refers to the purification of the bone marrow, which is considered to be the source of the body's life force and vitality. This stage is said to involve the transformation of the bone marrow into a refined, pure substance that resembles the white, rich, and creamy texture of rabbit marrow.

In this stage, practitioners are said to experience a deeper level of physical, emotional, and spiritual transformation, as the purified bone marrow nourishes the body and energizes the energy system. This can result in a greater sense of inner peace, spiritual clarity, and overall health and well-being.

It's important to note that the concept of "rabbit marrow" is highly symbolic and may vary in interpretation and significance among different schools of Daoist Neidan. Like the "black liver light" stage, it is generally seen as a positive sign of progress on the path to spiritual enlightenment and represents a deeper level of purification and refinement of the body and energy system.

 

 

 

[Wilhelm]

4 hours ago, Netero said:

Don't be so hard on Coop (I named him so based on the similarity of Dale Cooper in Twin Peaks). He's a language based AI, which is a fancy way of saying interactive Google search index on steroids and meth. Very limited due to the information training, but still quite fun. Here's your original questions answered.

If this is even a tiny bit accurate I'd be super impressed.  Very clever word association algorithm, if nothing else

Edited February 14, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Geof Nanto]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

If this is even a tiny bit accurate I'd be super impressed.  Very clever word association algorithm, if nothing else

 

I cannot say whether this is accurate or not because I have no knowledge or experience of this type of practice. Hopefully someone who reads it will be able to give an objective assessment. If @Netero  doesn’t know himself maybe @freeform does? 

 

However, I can vouch for the general accuracy of the info in my OP because it very much relates to my own experience and understanding of neidan theory.  The questions I asked were deliberately designed to convey that by allowing ChatGPT to expand on it. And I learnt from its answers too in that it reinforced and validated my own understandings. Hence, that conversation was a very rewarding experience or me. Of course, as ChatGPT repeatedly mentioned, different neidan lineages  have different approaches to practices. Daoism in general and neidan in particular are vastly diverse in their teachings and practices. 

 

As to the accuracy of the info in my conversation with Chat GPT about Black Liver and Rabbit’s marrow, I will elaborate on that in my next post. 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Geof Nanto

[Geof Nanto]

On 13/02/2023 at 8:23 AM, Geof Nanto said:

I very much like the information ChatGPT has given me both in my OP and about Black Liver and Rabbit Marrow. I first came across the terms ‘Raven’s Liver’ and ‘Rabbit Marrow’ a couple of decades ago when I read Cleary’s translation of a text traditionally attributed to Zhang Boduan ( Chang Po-tuan) titled Four Hundred Words on the Gold Elixir. Here is the relevant verse:

 

  14. THE RAVEN’S LIVER AND THE RABBIT’S MARROW—

GRAB THEM AND PUT THEM BACK IN ONE PLACE.

GRAIN AFTER GRAIN, FROM VAGUENESS TO CLARITY.

 

Cleary also translates Liu Yiming’s full commentary which I’ll leave for people to look up for themselves if they are interested. Of particular relevance here he says:  ““The raven's liver' is the vitality of the sun; liver is dark, which is associated with wood, and so symbolizes the essence of conscious knowledge. 'The rabbit's marrow' is the light of the moon; marrow is white, which is associated with metal, so it symbolizes the sense of real knowledge”.

 

Okay, so we have here some complex imagery of which Raven’s Liver as conscious knowledge and Rabbit’s Marrow as real knowledge is a key understanding.

 

ChatGPT obviously hasn’t sourced from Cleary’s translation because the phrasing is totally dissimilar even though the underlying interpretation of what Raven’s Liver and Rabbit Marrow represent is the same. Indeed, ChatGPT has presented what I consider to be particularly insightful information totally in line with Daoist alchemy. The verses are excellent, particularly this one:

 

Black liver and rabbit marrow are one and the same
Alternating between black and white within the inner realm
Clearing darkness and dissipating negative energy
Wisdom and brightness are elevated, enhancing spirituality
 

 If, as Taoist Texts suggests, ChatGPT has made up this commentary and the verses, then I’d call ChatGPT a Daoist sage; that this supercomputer has somehow transcended its programming and achieved enlightenment.  However I think it far more likely that ChatGPT is sourcing information not available on the web. ChatGPT says this itself: “I was trained on a massive corpus of text data from the web and other sources…” I suspect it was feed massive amounts of scholarship which isn’t available on the web.

 

In any case, I have no doubts from my brief usage of it, that it is a valuable research tool and a pleasure to use. If someone wants to totally dismiss it as Taoist Texts and others here seem to want to, then that’s their business. And I politely ask them to pursue it on a separate topic of their own. 

 

I’ve used ChatGPT very little and I’m still learning about how it works. I’ve asked it some more questions about how it generates answers and I now have a better understanding of its strengths and weaknesses. It is very open and forthcoming about how it works so I suggest anyone who wants to learn about it, ask it questions yourself. As to neidan, it answers reveal to me that it is sourcing its information from a wide selection legitimate neidan texts and commentary. But it uses them in the way it itself explains:

 

Me: Are you familiar with the neidan text, "Four Hundred words on the Golden Elixir?

 

Chat GPT: Yes, I am familiar with the Daoist inner alchemy (neidan) text "Four Hundred Words on the Golden Elixir." It is a short, concise text that outlines the basic principles and practices of Daoist inner alchemy. The text emphasizes the importance of the cultivation of the "Golden Elixir," which is seen as representing the purified essence of the self, and provides guidelines for the practitioner on how to cultivate this essence through inner alchemy practices.

 

"Four Hundred Words on the Golden Elixir" is considered to be an important text in the Daoist inner alchemy tradition, and is often used as a foundational text for students of the practice. It is highly regarded for its simplicity, clarity, and directness, and is often used as a reference for those seeking to understand the basics of Daoist inner alchemy.

 

Me:  Can you quote section 14?

 

ChatGPT: I'm sorry, but I do not have the specific text of "Four Hundred Words on the Golden Elixir" at my disposal. As a language model, I can provide general information on the text and its contents, but I do not have the ability to directly access specific sections or quotes from it.

 

Me: Is that because of copyright laws?

 

ChatGPT: No, it's not due to copyright laws. OpenAI's language models are designed to generate text based on patterns learned from large amounts of text data, and do not have the ability to directly access or quote specific texts. This is due to the nature of the AI language model and its training process, rather than any legal restrictions.

 

Me: Those verses about Black Liver and Rabbit marrow you previously provided me, did you find them in your data banks? Or did you create them yourself from your knowledge of neidan?

 

Chat GPT: I created these verses based on my knowledge of Daoist inner alchemy (neidan). These types of verses are commonly used to summarize key concepts in Daoist inner alchemy, and as a mnemonic device to help practitioners remember and reflect on these concepts. These verses are not specific or unique to any one particular text or tradition within Daoist inner alchemy, but rather are meant to convey the general themes and ideas that are central to the practice.

 

Me: Okay. What about the commentary you've given. Did you create that yourself too?

 

Chat GPT: Yes, I created the commentary myself based on my training and knowledge of Daoist inner alchemy and the concepts of "Black Liver" and "Rabbit Marrow." The information I provided is based on the general understanding and interpretation of these concepts within the Daoist inner alchemy tradition, and is intended to give a broad overview of their symbolism and meaning.

 

Me: Where did you gain your knowledge of Black Liver and Rabbit's Marrow?

 

Chat GPT: As an AI language model developed by OpenAI, I was trained on a diverse range of text from the internet, including academic articles, books, and websites, to learn about various topics, including Daoist inner alchemy and the concepts of "Black Liver" and "Rabbit Marrow." My training data was current as of 2021, so my knowledge on this topic is limited to what was present in that data. However, I have been designed to generate coherent and informative responses based on the information I have been trained on.

 

Me: Okay. Thank you

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

5 hours ago, Geof Nanto said:

Chat GPT: My training data was current as of 2021, so my knowledge on this topic is limited to what was present in that data. However, I have been designed to generate coherent and informative responses based on the information I have been trained on.

 

So Chat GPT cannot currently surf the internet. And consequently would know nothing about the expargarate creature...?

Edited February 14, 2023 by wandelaar

[Master Logray]

18 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

So Chat GPT cannot currently surf the internet. And consequently would know nothing about the expargarate creature...?

 

Our member A has been writing about liver and marrow since 2016?   expargarate is too troublesome in spelling....

[wandelaar]

But how should Chat GPT know about the expargarate creature if it can't surf the internet?

[wandelaar]

Can we now draw the conclusion that it's possible to write posts for the internet like a real neidan master (as Chat GPT appears to be doing) on the basis of nothing more than a linguistic understanding of neidan texts without any actual practical experience?

[Master Logray]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Can we now draw the conclusion that it's possible to write posts for the internet like a real neidan master (as Chat GPT appears to be doing) on the basis of nothing more than a linguistic understanding of neidan texts without any actual practical experience?

 

Yes.  Perhaps even better than a majority of them who are lacking in literary skills, or very limited in education, the ability to have organised thinking and so on.

[Taoist Texts]

27 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Can we now draw the conclusion that it's possible to write posts for the internet like a real neidan master (as Chat GPT appears to be doing) on the basis of nothing more than a linguistic understanding of neidan texts without any actual practical experience?

Excellent conclusion! Of course we can. Because thats what the "real neidan masters (TM)"  do. And of course  the "real neidan masters (TM)"  do not need any stinking understanding, linguistic or otherwise.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[Giles]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Excellent conclusion! Of course we can. Because thats what the "real neidan masters (TM)"  do. And of course  the "real neidan masters (TM)"  do not need any stinking understanding, linguistic or otherwise.

 

Indeed...

 

 

Source: https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt/

 

Which perhaps begs the question that might deserve its own thread, "Is there currently any source of truth?" 🤔

[steve]

Thanks for sharing this update @Geof Nanto. This is a fascinating tool and like any tool will have strengths and weaknesses. I applaud you on your selection of questions both in exploring neidan topics and in exploring the veracity and credibility of the answers provided. I sometimes feel like I’m living in a sci-fi novel but I’m probably just showing my age.

[wandelaar]

Fascinating as it all may be from a technical and intellectual viewpoint - and I can't deny that it is! - I think that a guy like Lao Tzu would be aghast to see how living a simple live is becoming more difficult by the day as we in modern society surround ourselves with high-tech gadgets and computerized systems and hurriedly dismantle the old ways of doing. Soon there will no longer be a way back, and those who are unwilling to go along will end as outcasts.