Wilhelm

On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic arts  

23 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you view the classical descriptions of accomplishment in the meditative and/or energetic arts that you practice? (i.e. Arhatship, Immortality, Rainbow Body etc. or even any of the Siddhi)

    • The classics give literal descriptions of the various attainments
      10
    • The classics give metaphorical or at least non-literal descriptions of the various attainments
      4
    • I don't know
      6
    • Other
      3


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3 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

What does it mean when you say karma starts to unravel when Spirit is touched? Isn't that kind of what life on this plane is already? Is it a 'speeding up' (what does that even mean) or is there a different mechanic there?


There’s a mechanic, yes… Yin and Yang - and the creation process from Wuji to Yuan Shen to Yin and Yang and so on. I kinda have to skirt around this I’m afraid.
 

When you touch Spirit at the deepest level, you go through a similar process as being reborn… in that window of opportunity your karma begins to unravel… whereas before it would fruit according to circumstances, after such an event it  no longer requires the same set of circumstances and so it fruits freely…

 

At the same time - after such an experience you’re feeling very good - like you’ve experienced a connection to God - and it becomes easy to delude yourself that whatever karma fruits is a calling from God or something like that…

 

So you might end up buying 365 Rolexes - one for each day of the year as an expression of the divine… or you might beat someone for disturbing your meditation - as an expression of the divine… or manipulate someone into a sexual relationship etc etc.

 

It happens all the time. Sometimes people assume disgraced gurus were frauds - in many cases they were, but in some cases this is what happened to them… They touch the Divine and assume they’ve arrived - when in fact they’ve only just taken the first step.

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1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

light is light. either it is there  [dim or brilliant]  OR it is not. But light  does not mean a chair or an apple or a wisdom or awareness and what not.


I’ve had 4 different types of bright white light experience - each with a different causation… each with slightly different qualities.
 

Not quite as simple as ‚ÄúIt‚Äôs white light or it‚Äôs not‚ÄĚ

 

As a kid I had this friend that would press on her eyes with her palms because she enjoyed the colours followed by the blinding white light she could see as her eyeballs pressed against her optic nerve.

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11 minutes ago, freeform said:

At the same time - after such an experience you’re feeling very good - like you’ve experienced a connection to God - and it becomes easy to delude yourself that whatever karma fruits is a calling from God or something like that…


Oh I should also add - just because I found this rather difficult to come to terms with myself…

 

You may also fruit positive karma - very positive wholesome states - love, connection, beauty - all that good stuff… but it’s still karma - and it will ensnare you back into the drama of life again if you’re not careful :rolleyes:

 

So many pitfalls at this stage! 
 

In fact many teachers recommend limiting interactions at this point simply to give yourself the opportunity to bring Yin and Yang back into some balance again.

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34 minutes ago, Creation said:

All I'm saying is that he self reports to have the same permanent perceptual shift as the fellow in the article I posted, and the same as Daniel Ingram, and I see no reason to doubt this particular claim.

 

I imagine you know most people with serious mental illnesses or neuropsychological disorders have an altered perception to begin with? Fire psychedelics and drugs into the mix, and a few comments from others, and hey presto.

 

Awakened natty kundalini bro (actual quote from him)

 

Do any of those individuals strike you as people of attainment? 

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56 minutes ago, freeform said:


There’s a mechanic, yes… Yin and Yang - and the creation process from Wuji to Yuan Shen to Yin and Yang and so on. I kinda have to skirt around this I’m afraid.
 

When you touch Spirit at the deepest level, you go through a similar process as being reborn… in that window of opportunity your karma begins to unravel… whereas before it would fruit according to circumstances, after such an event it  no longer requires the same set of circumstances and so it fruits freely…

 

Would add to this (If freeform doesn't mind :D )

 

Consider the "bright white light" the "life review" as consciousness folds in upon itself 

 

This is where the karmic information starts to play back to consciousness.That which carries the most "clinging" is what goes on to dictate the next life

 

This is where all the "meditative" training comes in handy :) Because it is important during this time if you want to have a "say" in the matter

 

Turning the light around? Detaching from the senses.

 

Well you might just manage to get this process going before you die ;) 

Edited by Shadow_self
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33 minutes ago, freeform said:

In fact many teachers recommend limiting interactions at this point simply to give yourself the opportunity to bring Yin and Yang back into some balance again.

 

Do you even AUM, bro :D

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12 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Awakened natty kundalini bro (actual quote from him)


I feel like he’s part of a very big group of people that are willingly led astray. 
 

‚ÄėWillingly‚Äô because this stuff sounds cool - and they really do get phenomena like they‚Äôve been told - and that confirms everything‚Ķ it‚Äôs all very new and exciting - and there are lots of others in the same situation‚Ķ

 

So I can’t blame them… it’s a similar scene to psychedelics…

 

I can totally see myself falling into this tribe had I come across it when I was a teenager!

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46 minutes ago, freeform said:


I’ve had 4 different types of bright white light experience - each with a different causation… each with slightly different qualities.
 

Not quite as simple as ‚ÄúIt‚Äôs white light or it‚Äôs not‚ÄĚ

 

Can attest to this too

 

Ive had two different white lights (and a very very brief flicker of a third, rather rapturous one )

 

The one TT describes sounds like¬†shenguang¬†Á•ěŚÖČ śÄߌäü

Edited by Shadow_self
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2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Do you even AUM, bro :D


Full Natty Aum Bro :lol:

 

Yes - that’s one practice to smooth out the Yin-Yang balance…

 

Another is working a step down with the 5 lights and 5 movements…

 

Another is through humility (or Bhakti type practice).

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1 hour ago, freeform said:

I‚Äôve just had experience of caring for some people¬†with bipolar. It‚Äôs more of an internal energy mismanagement from my experience‚Ķ although manic episodes can bring about delusional states - it‚Äôs not delusional states that bring about manic episodes‚Ķ that‚Äôs what I mean by ‚Äėnot rooted in‚Äô.

 

Bipolar people can be quite competent at life and will often appear to be exceptional at something or other during a manic period…

 

That does make sense and match some vague impressions I have of bipolar people. 

Could you say more about what you mean by energy mismanagement and possible solutions to that?

I think I have read bipolar disorder has a heavier genetic component than a lot of other mental illness. Though based people I have talked to that have it or have had it trauma seems to often be involved as well. 

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35 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I imagine you know most people with serious mental illnesses or neuropsychological disorders have an altered perception to begin with? Fire psychedelics and drugs into the mix, and a few comments from others, and hey presto.

 

I'm not sure why I'm spending my time defending Frank Yang, but really, I think you're being rather uncharitable here.  He talks about doing ayahuasca like 2 times and doesn't recommend it for serious practitioners.  And can you blame a person for saying they awakended kundalini when they experienced exactly what others told them kundalini is? Just as freeform said.  And speaking of:

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Bipolar is not generally rooted in delusion like other mental health issues can be.

 

If you'd like to read the article I linked, you can see an extremely sober and rational discussion of the perceptual shift in question.  Then we can separate out what is being claimed from the deliberately bombastic youtube-influencer style presentation that has triggered you. 

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26 minutes ago, freeform said:


I feel like he’s part of a very big group of people that are willingly led astray. 
 

‚ÄėWillingly‚Äô because this stuff sounds cool - and they really do get phenomena like they‚Äôve been told - and that confirms everything‚Ķ it‚Äôs all very new and exciting - and there are lots of others in the same situation‚Ķ

 

So I can’t blame them… it’s a similar scene to psychedelics…

 

I can totally see myself falling into this tribe had I come across it when I was a teenager!

 

This is why I point a finger at Daniel Ingram. As both a doctor and a supposed advanced practitioner, he should know better.

 

The last thing he's want to be doing is encouraging someone that ill down a road of what he calls "hard core" teachings

 

Psychedelics are about to be the next big thing as a cure all. The pharma folk have their teeth in deep, so I imagine this is a small preview of what is to come sadly :(

 

23 minutes ago, freeform said:


Full Natty Aum Bro :lol:

 

Yes - that’s one practice to smooth out the Yin-Yang balance…

 

Indeed, amongst other things :D 

 

23 minutes ago, freeform said:

Another is working a step down with the 5 lights and 5 movements…

 

I usually stick with the former, but I am sure this will surely have its place too when the time is right :) 

 

(Interesting note about the step down :) ) 

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7 minutes ago, Creation said:

 

I'm not sure why I'm spending my time defending Frank Yang, but really, I think you're being rather uncharitable here. 

Im not sure why you are defending him either, whether I give you the academic lens, or the practitioner lens, i see the exact same thing

 

Maybe you are seeing something I am not?

7 minutes ago, Creation said:

He talks about doing ayahuasca like 2 times and doesn't recommend it for serious practitioners. 

I never said he did

 

Do you know how many people do it once and have their perception permanently altered? 

 

7 minutes ago, Creation said:

And can you blame a person for saying they awakended kundalini when they experienced exactly what others told them kundalini is?

Im  not worried about what he's saying. he is clearly quite unwell. He is forgiven for being deluded imo

 

Im worried about the cheerleaders clapping him on. Or telling him yes you do have x, y and z

 

Thats like telling a schizophrenic, yes the radio is telling you that the tv is plotting to kill you in my opinion

 

I make no distinction, entertaining delusions is entertaining delusions. It is rather sad to see it

 

7 minutes ago, Creation said:

Just as freeform said.  And speaking of:

 

 

If you'd like to read the article I linked, you can see an extremely sober and rational discussion of the perceptual shift in question. 

 

You mean this one. Sure we can talk about that

 

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind-4bccbf65c539

 

Looks like the same things most people describe after a pretty strong trip or two

 

Nothing special in here to me at least. Can you see something I don't ? 

 

7 minutes ago, Creation said:

Then we can separate out what is being claimed from the deliberately bombastic youtube-influencer style presentation that has triggered you. 

 

I dont think we need to really? But I mean Im just looking from my side, Im open to what you have to say

 

He thinks he's been through all of the jhanas has a fully awakened kundalini, and is an arhat

 

Do you think he is any of those things? If so, Im rather curious as to why

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6 hours ago, Creation said:

that he never touched on anything like what Damo calls soul or spirit. 

 

Could you describe does what Damo calls soul or spirit? What does Damo say it is and how is it different from the Ingram type of awakening?

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22 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Do you think he is any of those things? If so, Im rather curious as to why

No, I don't, sorry if that was unclear.

 

22 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Looks like the same things most people describe after a pretty strong trip or two

Where are all these people whose perception permanently lacks center or boundary after one ayahuasca trip?  :lol: If we can't agree this is something nontrivial, then there not much to be discussed.

Edited by Creation
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20 minutes ago, markern said:

 

Could you describe does what Damo calls soul or spirit?

I wish I could. It's mystery to me. I'll defer to freeform's response to the article I posted to explain the difference from what Ingram is describing.

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23 minutes ago, Creation said:

No, I don't, sorry if that was unclear.

Fair enough. You did say you didnt want to discount his experience.

 

What was it you meant?

 

23 minutes ago, Creation said:

Where are all these people whose perception permanently lacks center or boundary after one ayahuasca trip?

 

Peripheral boundaries and perceptual center fading away, or even a total separation  is a common experience in psychedelics in general.  In fact DMT shares a similar mechanic with the near death experience in that regard, though it can be far more profound, actual separation

 

Psychedelics have been known to heighten neuroplasticity and form new connections in the neural network.

 

Many of these are reinforced and made permanent, which is the recovery effect you see in action at the physical level. 

 

This is the case for a normal brain and a normal individual.

 

The mentally ill brain is far more worrying. In fact bipolar people have had to be excluded from recent trials due to safety concerns.

 

Please see below

 

Psychedelics in the treatment of unipolar and bipolar depression (2022)

 

https://journalbipolardisorders.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40345-022-00265-5

 

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Unfortunatley, systematic studies are still limited to unipolar depressed patients, as patients with bipolar disorder have been excluded from recent psychedelic trials due to safety concerns. These concerns stem mostly from qualitative user reports or case studies, which documented the occurrence of switches to mania after ingestion of psychedelics (see Table¬†1). One case study of a 21-year-old woman described the occurrence of psychotic mania about 36¬†h after a single ingestion of psilocybin-containing mushrooms, which could be stabilized first with lithium and aripiprazole, and¬†which was later successfully switched to lamotrigine due to adverse effects. The patient had a positive family history of bipolar disorder (father and paternal grandmother) and was suffering depression and PTSD, but was unmedicated at the time of the episode (Hendin and Penn,¬†2021). Ayahuasca and DMT were also reported to induce mania with psychotic features in patients with bipolar disorder or a positive family history of bipolar disorder. A 40-year-old male psychiatrist with known bipolar disorder (a single previous manic episode) was hospitalized with mania and psychosis after self-medicating for depression. He took up to 1¬†g daily of vaporized DMT for 6¬†months and then added the MAO inhibitor phenelzine (60¬†mg p.o.) 3¬†weeks before the hospitalization. A combination of lithium 1200¬†mg/d, paliperidone 6¬†mg/d, and clonazepam 3.5¬†mg/d as sleep aid led to stabilization, but a follow-up was not possible (Brown et al.,¬†2017b). Another 25-year-old male with known bipolar disorder and history of cannabis abuse, was hospitalized with mania with psychotic features, which occurred 2¬†days after ayahuasca ingestion. Remission was achieved with a combination of benperidole, olanzapine and lorazepam (Zellner et al.,¬†2019). A 30-year-old male with previous hypomanic episodes and a positive first-degree family history of bipolar disorder developed mania with psychotic features, also 2¬†days after a ayahuasca ritual, which could be stabilized with risperidone 2¬†mg/d and clonazepam 2¬†mg/d (Szmulewicz et al.,¬†2015). The etiological classification of ayahuasca-related mania is especially difficult, as the drug consists of a classic psychedelic (DMT) and a MAO inhibitor (harmine and harmaline). MAO inhibitors are‚ÄĒlike other antidepressants‚ÄĒknown to induce manic switches in patients with unipolar depression (Wada et al.,¬†2006). Moreover, psychosis with schizophrenic features such as hallucinations and paranoid delusions, rather than mania, was reported to be a rare but possible adverse reaction to ayahuasca or DMT use in a systematic review of existing case reports (Dos Santos et al.,¬†2017). LSD was reported to have induced a first-time manic episode with psychotic features after 3¬†weeks post ingestion, which could be stabilized with lithium treatment (Lake et al.,¬†1981).

 

 

So with all that in mind is it more likely he's suffering from delusions that the trip amplified and may have permanently shifted his perception, given it is already altered? 

 

Or he is in fact the Kundalini awakened, Jhana master Arhat he claims  to be? 

 

(Not saying you are saying he is, just showing you where the evidence points towards vs his claims) 

 

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/71832-interview-with-frank-yang-on-the-difference-between-enlightenment-and-psychedelics/?page=1

 

According to this he has also done pure DMT once and 5meo twice

 

So that'd be 5 times you and I know of

 

Now that's a lot for anyone.

 

Can you imagine what that is for a bipolar person? and keep in mind the above cited safety warning

 

Also I checked the history of his public commercial facebook page.

 

The direct evidence of heavy drug abuse is there. But heres just one quote of many. I have edited some of it out to make it less rude. Go and read the rest (if you dare, because the stories are disgusting)

 

https://www.facebook.com/BiggerStrongerWeirder/posts/pfbid02DjnWSVYzrpB7UmKDFQrDLxbR4wYoRqRyVHhJz91b7hP5ucvshyjepH6m9gBHumZsl

 

Quote
just took a sleeping pill mixed with alpha brain. I'm getting mild ketamine effect. NICE!!!

 

 

Quote
My first night with Alpha Brain. See if my mental BBC gets more alpha and whether or not I lucid dream. Already crashed 2 sleeping pills in mixed with some creatine and snorted them all.

 

Bettter yet, hear him talk about getting high on sleeping pills

 

 

23 minutes ago, Creation said:

  :lol: If we can't agree this is something nontrivial, then there not much to be discussed.

 

I'm struggling for you to give me an experience which is non trivial, aside from some serious substance abuse and a serious mental illness

 

Do you think this thing he is mentioning is something special or something trivial?

 

I don't mean that smartly, its an honest question

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52 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I'm struggling for you to give me an experience which is non trivial, aside from some serious substance abuse and a serious mental illness

 

Do you think this thing he is mentioning is something special or something trivial?

 

I don't mean that smartly, its an honest question

53 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Fair enough. You did say you didnt want to discount his experience.

 

What was it you meant?

You're making this about Yang, I really don't want it to be.  I refuse to give my personal opinion on his personal history or lifestyle, because that's beside the point.  It's about the experiences common to all people claiming MCTB/Daniel Ingram definition 4th path, which is what was clearly described in that article.  If you think Yang hasn't really experienced this, or to the extent that he has, it is solely due to drugs and mental illness rather than meditation, I don't care.  Ingram himself seems to accept that Yang has experienced the same shift as him from his practice, but it makes no difference. 

 

If you think experiences of perceptual boundaries permanently dropping mean nothing because people have them on psychedelics, I guess experiencing unconditional universal love is meaningless because it's similar to what some people experience on MDMA.  Or loosing the body and experiencing a sense of infinitude is meaningless because some people experience it on DMT. 

 

If you keep making it about either Frank Yang's lifestyle, or psychedelics in general, I won't be discussing this with you any more.  This is about people putting in serious hours on the cushion and having serious changes to perception as a result.  Serious questions to ask are: what is the traditional Daoist or Buddhist view of such perceptual shifts?  What is the value or risk of such shifts?  What is the relation of such shifts to what other paths value, such as hard jhana, development of virtue, or energetic development?  Etc. 

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6 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

But the light is not always called 'the light' in the classics, is it? 

i think yes it always does. unless you have examples of other terms

6 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

In arts where strange phenomena like blinding white lights occur shouldn't a higher bar be set for differentiating the true and the false?

the key word is to occur. a light occurs. telepathy does not. arts do not change the reality. they change us.

6 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

So if you're of the opinion that consensus is not needed in these arts - why is it necessary to follow the specific process you've outlined in order to progress? 

But those are completely different things. A consensus is what a bunch of amateurs on the web agree on. The process is what a  wise and kind master says in a 800 year old book. I am in agreement with him while disagreeing with them. There is no consensus between the three of us.

6 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Or was your implication that it's because of the lack of consensus that so many amateurs exist?

Amateurs exist  because of the reality of the human condition: ppl are born with a different karma. Very few of us have what it takes to become masters. The rest of us  simply does not have what it takes. Its not just a matter of ignorance. The amateurs are hardwired to actively reject the true method. Instead, they are hardwired for fantasies and materialism.

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31 minutes ago, Creation said:

You're making this about Yang, I really don't want it to be.

Then perhaps his name should not have been invoked

 

I didnt know who he was 24 hours ago, until I came here

 

Quote

  I refuse to give my personal opinion on his personal history or lifestyle, because that's beside the point. 

I didnt ask for your opinion on his lifestyle, you said you wouldn't dismiss him

 

I asked why. That was all

 

If I told you I could teleport, are you going to dismiss me? 

Quote

It's about the experiences common to all people claiming MCTB/Daniel Ingram definition 4th path, which is what was clearly described in that article. 

Right, and I am saying there's nothing described in that article that doesn't happen people on  psychedelic drugs.

 

Reddit is a nice place where people describe their drug taking. Its worth a look

 

You know what Daniel ingram stated?

 

People can have awakenings on psychedelics. I think he is easily dismissed because he does not know what an awakening is if that is his position

 

Quote

If you think Yang hasn't really experienced this, or to the extent that he has, it is solely due to drugs and mental illness rather than meditation, I don't care. 

Oh im not doubting his perceptual experience.

 

I am doubting his claims as to what they are, and the causal chain leading to them

 

Quote

Ingram himself seems to accept that Yang has experienced the same shift as him from his practice, but it makes no difference. 

Given he sees no problem in calling himself an Arhat, I think I can with no reservations dismiss him out of hand, unless someone gives me reason not to

 

 I have no problem dismissing bar lowering people who speak nonsense and claim all sorts of things they haven't even touched

 

Or he can demonstrate a whole array of siddhi and put me back in my nice little box :) 

 

Quote

If you think experiences of perceptual boundaries permanently dropping mean nothing because people have them on psychedelics,

 

I do think they mean very little in fact. I see transformation as something that occurs physically, energetically and physically

 

Can you see it it any of the names you mentioned? I cannot

 

Go take a look at Beth Upton.

 

If you cant see the light of Shen,  practice  some more and you should see it

 

Quote

I guess experiencing unconditional universal love is meaningless because it's similar to what some people experience on MDMA. 

 

Or loosing the body and experiencing a sense of infinitude is meaningless because some people experience it on DMT. 

 

Meaningless no,

 

Experience? Sure

 

Attainment? Also no

 

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If you keep making it about either Frank Yang's lifestyle, or psychedelics in general, I won't be discussing this with you any more.

Pretty sure based on the evidence, its fairly conclusive to be honest. If you dont want to talk

Quote

 This is about people putting in serious hours on the cushion and having serious changes to perception as a result. 

Ohh no, dont go there. Dont conflate quantity with quality please. That's a dead end argument

 

People have put years in and had "perceptual shifts" where they imagined MCO's running, Dantiens and all sorts of nonsense.

 

The real thing has a physical element to it where the spine starts to change, and the saliva freeform mentioned he had to taste (ew) :D 

 

For what it is worth,

 

Ive had SERIOUS changes to my perception as a result of my practice.

 

I don't go around claiming to have some grand attainment because of it.

 

Quote

Serious questions to ask are: what is the traditional Daoist or Buddhist view of such perceptual shifts? 

According to anyone ive either spoken to, or interacted with, they are as above

(and as per my own experience)

 

A shift on the physical, energetic and spiritual levels

 

Quote

What is the value or risk of such shifts? 

That would depend on whether they are grounded in actual transformation or something else

 

Quote

What is the relation of such shifts to what other paths value, such as hard jhana, development of virtue, or energetic development?  Etc. 

I don't think any of them people, regardless of what they claim have any business talking about jhana.

 

Like literally, none

Edited by Shadow_self

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The simple measure of progress is which planes/subplanes are under internal control by the human

 

The various subplanes have natural tests/skills associated but it is simpler just to measure the subplane progress

 

 

Edited by Lairg
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8 hours ago, markern said:

bipolar people. 

Could you say more about what you mean by energy mismanagement and possible solutions to that?


No sorry - that wouldn’t be appropriate at all.


I’m absolutely no expert and I have very limited experience - so whatever I say will inevitably be wrong for some people who are in a vulnerable position.

 

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5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

You know what Daniel ingram stated?

 

People can have awakenings on psychedelics.


The issue with Frank Yang in my opinion is not that he’s completely deluded - it’s that he’s been completely misled…

 

Which brings us back on topic - sort of. :D
 

Daniel Ingram has dismissed classical descriptions of attainment - and instead put together his own descriptions of attainment.

 

He drew from his own experience - and since he‚Äôs not an enlightened being, his experience is limited‚Ķ so he mapped out accomplishments that get people to where he got - and he decided to call what he got ‚Äėenlightenment‚Äô (or 4th path).

 

My guess is that Ingram would call the classical attainments as metaphorical.
 

Is this what happens when people dismiss classical attainments? These arts get dumbed down to something like centerlessness and borderlessness? 
 

How about Sam Harris? He seems to have completely stripped the Dharma out of meditation and replaced it with Scientism… do people have much experience with Sam Harris? I’ve only listened to one interview a few years ago…

Edited by freeform
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2 hours ago, freeform said:


The issue with Frank Yang in my opinion is not that he’s completely deluded - it’s that he’s been completely misled…

 

Which brings us back on topic - sort of. :D
 

Daniel Ingram has dismissed classical descriptions of attainment - and instead put together his own descriptions of attainment.

 

He drew from his own experience - and since he‚Äôs not an enlightened being, his experience is limited‚Ķ so he mapped out accomplishments that get people to where he got - and he decided to call what he got ‚Äėenlightenment‚Äô (or 4th path).

 

I agree with you. Which was why I pointed a finger at him earlier

 

The delusion as to whats happening is just the effect, but its being instigated, nudged on by Ingram, and reinforced by a whole heap of other people

 

The problem with that is we arent talking about a normal person in terms of mental health here, we are talking about someone far more venerable

 

Ingram I suspect has quite a few issues himself...

2 hours ago, freeform said:

My guess is that Ingram would call the classical attainments as metaphorical.
 

Is this what happens when people dismiss classical attainments? These arts get dumbed down to something like centerlessness and borderlessness? 
 

Looks like it sadly. Plenty of people are happy to believe him (lowering the bar suits everyone)

2 hours ago, freeform said:

How about Sam Harris? He seems to have completely stripped the Dharma out of meditation and replaced it with Scientism… do people have much experience with Sam Harris? I’ve only listened to one interview a few years ago…

 

Sam Harris is from a similar discipline as me.

 

Imo he is quite possibly the biggest hypocrite I've come across

 

Denounces religion, yet literally is one of the main spokespeople for the newest iteration of it :D 

 

There was a funny debate I remember watching a few years ago where he debated a religious person on morals and whatnot. He just skipped around the points and created strawman after strawman, until he was basically surrounded by a crowd of scarecrows

 

I have no idea how his name has become attached to meditative practice, but it belongs nowhere near it :D 

 

 

 

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