Seven Steps to Deep Meditation

[forestofemptiness]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

I’ve written a lot about what I consider meditation to be… as well as jhanna. 

 

Yes, and unfortunately the stuff that you have written is not born out in the Buddhist sources. In Buddhist practice, there are generally three ways to check knowledge: experience, teacher, and scripture. If teachers are not consistent with Buddhist scripture there's an issue. 

 

Historical research suggests that the SE Asian meditative traditions were have now are fairly recent innovations, and trace back to a few extremely ascetic monks in the 1800's due to the pressures of colonization. Of course they think their way is the true way, the Buddha's way, etc. But every Buddhist sect claims that. But there's no reason to accept it, especially if is not supported by the suttas or the commentarial tradition. It's just another story. 

 

But the Buddha put forth 84,000 dharma gates for all sorts of individuals. Taking one gate as the one and only gate misses the point. And appealing to siddhis and magic powers--- well, greed is one of the primary elements driving samsara. I don't see how that is especially conducive to attracting spiritual seekers capable of achieving high levels of realization. I do see how it's attractive to people who want power and magic-- i.e. the vast majority of humanity. 

 

Beyond that rare person, there are many, many more who can benefit from techniques like the one presented here. People with jobs and families and everyday anxieties. People who are stressed about the economy and COVID. People who might come looking on the web for something to help them get through another day. As you said yourself, you have no problem with the technique. So why trash it? 

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

On 2022/10/11 at 9:12 PM, Master Logray said:

 

But directly go to the no-mind first is very difficult.  It is why there are so many deliberate stuff as stepping stones.

 

Deliberate stuffs look convenient , but soon or later these stepping stones become attachments and traps that   entangle people . How long ? It can entangle them  for whole life .

Edited October 14, 2022 by exorcist_1699

[freeform]

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

there are many, many more who can benefit from techniques like the one presented here. People with jobs and families and everyday anxieties. People who are stressed about the economy and COVID. People who might come looking on the web for something to help them get through another day. As you said yourself, you have no problem with the technique. So why trash it? 

 

I agree.  

 

Read again and you’ll see that I didn’t trash it. 
 

You just appear to have had a knee-jerk reaction to me saying it’s relaxation not meditation.

 

Thats not trashing it. 
 

It’s simply disagreeing that it’s meditation - or that it leads to meditation.
 

That’s all.
 

No ill will intended  

[Vajra Fist]

It's alright, he doesn't consider anapanasati a type of meditation either, despite the suttas saying that practicing it gives rise to the seven factors of awakening and ultimate liberation from suffering.

 

In fact, I don't call it meditation either.

 

I call it 42.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

It's alright, he doesn't consider anapanasati a type of meditation either, despite the suttas saying that practicing it gives rise to the seven factors of awakening and ultimate liberation from suffering.

If by ‘he’ you mean me - then yes, you’re quite right. In my opinion, Anapanasati isn’t meditation - it’s anapanasati.

 

Notice how even in your description you say that ‘practicing it gives rise to…’

 

That I agree with.

 

And compared to contrived, wilful breath control such as this HRV method, anapana (if taught correctly) doesn’t stand in the way of meditation arising. 

 

[Vajra Fist]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

If by ‘he’ you mean me

 

I knew you wouldn't mind me being a bit facetious. You're a good egg @freeform Glad you're back 

[forestofemptiness]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

You just appear to have had a knee-jerk reaction to me saying it’s relaxation not meditation.

 

Hopefully this is a guess and not an expression of a siddhi... 

 

19 hours ago, freeform said:

This suggests to me that they’ve lost some key aspects of the art generations ago - and are resorting to science-like factors to fill the missing pieces.

 

See, this is what I mean. This is quite a leap from an online comment to a judgment about an entire system and tradition, which I see as a pattern. 

 

Of course, lacking telepathy, this is just my speculation. Maybe it's all just skillful means and I'm not developed enough to see it. 

 

 

[awarenessrules]

20 hours ago, freeform said:

I then qualified that I’m talking about meditation ‘as I understand it’ 

 

I’ve written a lot about what I consider meditation to be… as well as jhanna. 
 

My view is certainly not shared by the vast majority of meditators.
 

Thats because it’s way beyond what they think is possible.
 

For example, I’ve been taught (and shown) that attainment of each jhannic absorption, when fully realised, invariably comes with certain siddhi. Just like learning to draw invariably comes with the ability to generate a likeness of any object on paper.
 

For my teachers, it’s very simple - if you haven’t achieved xxxx siddhi - then you haven’t achieved xxxx stage of jhanna. These siddhi are things like bilocation, changing one physical substance into another, generating visible light phenomena etc.

 

It might sound elitist or materialistic to some but it’s just like if you can’t generate a likeness of an object on paper, then you can’t say that you’ve attained the ability to draw. You need to prove your ability to graduate from art school.
 

These results are used as tests or assessments of one’s practice, because inner experience is generally not trusted in traditional schools.

 

Most meditators think that these things (despite being written about over and over) are myths and allegorical legends.
 

I believe they’ve become myths and legends because as a culture we tend to move the goal posts from something exceptionally difficult to something we can achieve with relative ease. It’s like we feel entitled to decide our own level of attainment…
 

So generating a bright, visible light as a sign of attaining certain meditative absorption… over a few generations of lazy practitioners - turns to being able to feel tingles on your lips as a sign of meditation… or worse still - being able to imagine a bright light.

 

I think that’s a shame.

 

That’s why when I see a relaxation hack being taught as meditation, I like to point out that there’s a lot more to this stuff. Relaxation is great - but don’t settle for relaxation if genuine cultivation is your calling in life  

 

Meditation is a doorway to the very building blocks of reality… when they say that physical reality is fundamentally consciousness at its root - this is not metaphor or allegory… they have a good reason to believe this. Each level of meditative absorption pierces a deeper layer of consciousness and accesses a deeper layer of what we consider our reality.
 

It’s not just about developing a calm mind and a harmonious nervous system (great as these goals are, of course).

 

I’m not here to convince anyone of anything. I get that this is a radical thing to say in this day and age. I get that it’s unbelievable. But there are people here who benefit from hearing about how deep this stuff goes and then making up their own mind about it.

 

There are people with great talent and drive that feel an inner pull to cultivation - but then they look at the sorry state of the spiritual world and go into finance or law or music - endeavours that are more challenging and interesting, that require rigour, dedication and excellence. 

 

There’s more to this stuff than what can be seen on the surface! It goes deeper than any other human endeavour.
 

I think it’s worth putting that out there and letting talented, ambitious people get curious and discover for themselves if that’s what they want.

The people that do well with cultivation are excited by the challenge - not overwhelmed by it.

 

What specific Buddhist tradition or sect these days do you think is closest to the original Buddha's teachings? Any authentic books or authors you can recommend which are closest to the true teachings of Buddha on jhannic states, samadhi, nirvana etc? 

[freeform]

37 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

20 hours ago, freeform said:

This suggests to me that they’ve lost some key aspects of the art generations ago - and are resorting to science-like factors to fill the missing pieces.

 

See, this is what I mean. This is quite a leap from an online comment to a judgment about an entire system and tradition, which I see as a pattern. 

You’re making quite a leap from an online comment to a judgement about an entire person yourself there, aren’t you!?

 

 

I’m just teasing.

 

I don’t mind that at all. I think that seeing patterns and discussing them makes for an interesting conversation.

[Shadow_self]

14 hours ago, Creation said:

To be fair, what Knutson is sharing on YouTube is like his personal path notes of what he's found helpful, including all the stuff relating it to science. The actual methods of his lineage are not shared outside of one on one instruction with an authorized teacher. And his lineage does have a word for the state that eventually arises: samadhi. If he wants to call the training you do prior to samadhi "meditation", I really don't see the problem with that.

 

Do you see a problem with equating arrival at a destination with the means and manners used to get there...not only are they not the same thing, one is a process, the other is a product

 

Meditation is a a state, not a practice...you practice qualities that allow you to reach the state once they are developed to a high enough degree

 

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Yes, and unfortunately the stuff that you have written is not born out in the Buddhist sources. In Buddhist practice, there are generally three ways to check knowledge: experience, teacher, and scripture. If teachers are not consistent with Buddhist scripture there's an issue. 

Id say if the your experience and teacher are not leading to actual real results....that's a far bigger problem

 

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Historical research suggests that the SE Asian meditative traditions were have now are fairly recent innovations, and trace back to a few extremely ascetic monks in the 1800's due to the pressures of colonization. Of course they think their way is the true way, the Buddha's way, etc. But every Buddhist sect claims that. But there's no reason to accept it, especially if is not supported by the suttas or the commentarial tradition. It's just another story. 

It is one thing to read about rupa-kalapas in a text, and ponder over what is under discussion.

 

It is an entirely different matter (and far more helpful) to physically see these things

 

Given the choice, I know which one ill take...and it wont involve me reading scripture over and over

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

But the Buddha put forth 84,000 dharma gates for all sorts of individuals. Taking one gate as the one and only gate misses the point. And appealing to siddhis and magic powers--- well, greed is one of the primary elements driving samsara. I don't see how that is especially conducive to attracting spiritual seekers capable of achieving high levels of realization. I do see how it's attractive to people who want power and magic-- i.e. the vast majority of humanity. 

Does it?

 

Did he lay out 84,000 destinations? 

 

People who generally downplay siddhi as a benchmark of achievement, are generally those who have no developments. They will tell you they have achieved this or that...but the litmus test, is siddhi development.

 

It has nothing to do with magic or greed. These things are not sought per se, they arise as a result of the condition.

 

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Beyond that rare person, there are many, many more who can benefit from techniques like the one presented here. People with jobs and families and everyday anxieties. People who are stressed about the economy and COVID. People who might come looking on the web for something to help them get through another day. As you said yourself, you have no problem with the technique. So why trash it? 

 

 

He's not trashing it from where I'm sitting (nor am I)

 

He is correctly categorizing it. I have a Buddhist teacher who is quite strict about definitions too, its something I see mirrored in teachers who have the developments that indicate progress

 

Someone stressed out about the economy or covid, or looking to cope, they don't need meditation.

 

Meditation is a state, one the vast majority of people never reach...several factors have to align for it to arise...there is no "meditation practice" because it is collective result of a bunch of methods taken to a very high level of development

 

I literally do not understand the confusion about this

 

[freeform]

50 minutes ago, awarenessrules said:

 

What specific Buddhist tradition or sect these days do you think is closest to the original Buddha's teachings? Any authentic books or authors you can recommend which are closest to the true teachings of Buddha on jhannic states, samadhi, nirvana etc? 

@awarenessrules - you’re really not holding back with the questions are you! 

 

Honestly I have no idea what’s closest to the original Buddha’s teachings. Lots of people will have theories - but in reality we only have a vague idea of what exactly the Buddha taught. He was around a long time ago - and there are no writings from him directly as far as I’m aware.

 

I think that trying to stay as close to the original teachings is not necessarily the right approach anyway. 
 

That way we’re left chasing shadows of what was…
 

All we can do is find a school where they’ve achieved a high level of spiritual attainment and go and train under them and see for ourselves.

 

Pa Auk’s line in Burma, we’ve already discussed had some attained individuals when I went there… maybe it’s a good place to start for you? I think he’s still alive himself! 

 

It’s not an easy thing at all unfortunately.

 

Once you’re able to tap into the transmission of a lineage, it becomes easier to tell what line is dead or corrupted and what line is still connected to ‘the source’. But that takes a degree of insight and at least a glimpse of your ‘original spirit’ - impossible as a beginner.

 

For me personally the Buddhist path is not my path. I’m no renunciate, so I could never achieve Buddhist enlightenment.

 

The Daoist alchemical path is what works for me. I only really study with one Burmese esoteric Buddhist teacher because my Daoist teacher told me to continue with him. Why? I don’t really know.

[liminal_luke]

I have mixed feelings about Freeform's position that the term "meditation" ought to be reserved for a very rarefied experience, something quite apart from what 99.9% of those who consider themselves meditators ever approach.  Yes, it's good to know that exalted reality-bending states of consciousness are indeed possible, but the war to have "meditation" mean what Freeform means by the term has long been lost.  Attendees at mindfulness workshops and deep breathers everywhere consider themselves to be meditating.  Many of them likely bristle at the notion the notion that, in fact, they're not.  That's emotional reactivity for ya.  The good news is that most of us can take a few more belly breaths and stop worrying about how the word is defined by spiritual outliers like Freeform.  At least I hope so.  (I'd write more on the subject but I've got to wash my yoga pants and hit the local crystal shop --  ya know, spiritual stuff like that.)

[anshino23]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

I have mixed feelings about Freeform's position that the term "meditation" ought to be reserved for a very rarefied experience, something quite apart from what 99.9% of those who consider themselves meditators ever approach.  Yes, it's good to know that exalted reality-bending states of consciousness are indeed possible, but the war to have "meditation" mean what Freeform means by the term has long been lost.  Attendees at mindfulness workshops and deep breathers everywhere consider themselves to be meditating.  Many of them likely bristle at the notion the notion that, in fact, they're not.  That's emotional reactivity for ya.  The good news is that most of us can take a few more belly breaths and stop worrying about how the word is defined by spiritual outliers like Freeform.  At least I hope so.  (I'd write more on the subject but I've got to wash my yoga pants and hit the local crystal shop --  ya know, spiritual stuff like that.)

 

I think it's because we're discussing on a Daoist forum and the thread is called 'Seven Steps to Deep Meditation'. If we were talking with our neighbors or a local Yoga studio we most likely wouldn't even broach the topic of what meditation proper really is -- at least I know I wouldn't!  

[Shadow_self]

31 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I have mixed feelings about Freeform's position that the term "meditation" ought to be reserved for a very rarefied experience, something quite apart from what 99.9% of those who consider themselves meditators ever approach.  Yes, it's good to know that exalted reality-bending states of consciousness are indeed possible, but the war to have "meditation" mean what Freeform means by the term has long been lost.  Attendees at mindfulness workshops and deep breathers everywhere consider themselves to be meditating.  Many of them likely bristle at the notion the notion that, in fact, they're not.  That's emotional reactivity for ya.  The good news is that most of us can take a few more belly breaths and stop worrying about how the word is defined by spiritual outliers like Freeform.  At least I hope so.  (I'd write more on the subject but I've got to wash my yoga pants and hit the local crystal shop --  ya know, spiritual stuff like that.)

 

This is what happens when you detach a term from its meaning...its generally what westerners do

 

Allow me to provide a few examples

 

jhana

chakra

kundalini

meditation

mindfulness

astral projection

 

There's probably more I'm forgetting

 

Any time you here these terms being used...you can almost be  guaranteed the person is talking about something else

 

Mindfulness is the latest one...the term has become so diluted and misused as of today...that a shiver goes up my spine every time I hear the term used

 

[freeform]

40 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

12 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Yes, and unfortunately the stuff that you have written is not born out in the Buddhist sources. In Buddhist practice, there are generally three ways to check knowledge: experience, teacher, and scripture. If teachers are not consistent with Buddhist scripture there's an issue. 

Id say if the your experience and teacher are not leading to actual real results....that's a far bigger problem

Yeah I avoided touching on this, because it’s gonna come across like I’ve got it in for @forestofemptiness - which I don’t.

 

Spiritual cultivation isn’t like doing a PHD. 

Knowledge and scripture can certainly be supporting elements to cultivation - but not the main thing. Some people need that support, some people get trapped in it.

 

Being a monk is like an alternative lifestyle choice in countries like Burma. 
 

It’s like when young men don’t know what to do with their life, so they join the army… it’s the same sort of thing there - just that they join a monastery instead. Sometimes families send their kids to a monastery coz they can’t afford to feed them… or they want to generate some merit for the family… orphans with nowhere to go… criminals wanting to change their ways… divorcees wanting a new life… Rich dudes that want to retire…

 

Just as most men that join the army don’t join because they want to become highly efficient killers… most people that join the monastic order don’t want to become highly cultivated meditators.

 

It’s all a big melting pot of different people with different temperaments and different aims.
 

Education is one of the big roles of monasteries - it goes from young kids learning to read - to what would be the equivalent of a university level education… it’s just all focused on scripture and various treatises by various abbots - that kinda thing.

 

Our access into the Buddhist tradition as westerners generally comes from this educational ‘wing’.

 

So yes in this scenario scriptural discussions, debates and rhetoric are an important element. That’s why we have sooooo many phd level books on Buddhism!

 

Often the smallest role in a monastery is actual spiritual cultivation. Generally monks are picked at a young age to go and study specifically for this aim under more senior monks. Often this is the least popular and lowest status of all the roles. 
 

These groups are generally not the ones giving blessings, collecting alms or giving public discourses on dharma. They’re generally hidden in some dusty corner of the monastery and live a very strict, disciplined life. 
 

While all monks practice some form of meditation - for most it’s just one of the required chores in their day something that gets in the way of scrolling through Facebook on their smartphones.

And in reality we tend not to have much access to this cultivation aspect of the tradition in the west.

 

There’s not much to read or write about it. Most westerners wouldn’t handle the sort of routine or be interested.

 

Buddhism is more than a spiritual practice in the east… it’s everything from school, to university, to charity, to homeless shelter to tourist attraction - and everything in between.

 

The actual spiritual thread is thin. And it’s not what I imagined when I first tried to get to it!

 

The tradition is massive. There are many layers to it and I think we tend to forget that in the west.

 

If one wants to study actual Buddhist meditation at the level of actual spiritual cultivation (not just a 10 day silent retreat) - it’s not easy… and you really only get access if you put on your robes.

 

Only then do you get into the stuff about siddhis and Jhannas and so on...

[forestofemptiness]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Id say if the your experience and teacher are not leading to actual real results....that's a far bigger problem

 

I'd appreciate it if one of you siddhi folks could inform me of my experience. Shouldn't be too hard, right? Preferably if you bilocate, I'll make you a cup of coffee. 

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Given the choice, I know which one ill take...and it wont involve me reading scripture over and over

 

It's not either or. It's both and. Study, contemplation, meditation is the Buddhist trifecta. People who are engaging in Buddhist practice should at least be versed in the basics. 

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

People who generally downplay siddhi as a benchmark of achievement, are generally those who have no developments. They will tell you they have achieved this or that...but the litmus test, is siddhi development.

 

Siddhis are based, like everything else, on causes and conditions and karma. What gets lost with people who tend to praise siddhis is wisdom, and it is the wisdom that counts from a Buddhist POV. For example, in this Sutta, some one asks how monks can be enlightened without psychic powers. Spoiler: he realized the foolishness of his view. 

 

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.70/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin 

 

 

 

 

[freeform]

56 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I have mixed feelings about Freeform's position that the term "meditation" ought to be reserved for a very rarefied experience, something quite apart from what 99.9% of those who consider themselves meditators ever approach.  Yes, it's good to know that exalted reality-bending states of consciousness are indeed possible, but the war to have "meditation" mean what Freeform means by the term has long been lost.  Attendees at mindfulness workshops and deep breathers everywhere consider themselves to be meditating.  Many of them likely bristle at the notion the notion that, in fact, they're not.  That's emotional reactivity for ya.  The good news is that most of us can take a few more belly breaths and stop worrying about how the word is defined by spiritual outliers like Freeform.  At least I hope so.  (I'd write more on the subject but I've got to wash my yoga pants and hit the local crystal shop --  ya know, spiritual stuff like that.)

@anshino23 got it.

 

I’m not starting a holy war on some semantic definition.

 

I’m making a point amongst peers

 

I’m well aware that it’s a little controversial and maybe a tiny bit confrontational…

 

I’ve noticed after Awaken had her way with the forum, discussion has stagnated a lot. 
 

Maybe a bit of controversy will wake us up a bit?

 

I don’t care what anyone calls anything. Why would I!?
 

I care about the people here - so I say what I believe!

 

If my friend’s elderly mother told me how excited she was to start a meditation practice at the local community centre I would not be the one saying “erm excuse me but I do believe that what you’re calling ‘meditation’ is in fact nothing more than…” (said in the geekiest voice I can muster).

 

But I’m not talking to my friend’s elderly mother here, am I?

 

Terms get misused and watered down all the time. So be it.

 

But amongst cultivators, I think it’s worth picking up on some of these things and talking about them, don’t you think?

 

It’s like people mixing up ‘veins’ and ‘arteries’… who cares… but when surgeons start doing it - maybe it’s time to speak up  

[liminal_luke]

I'm glad you're here, @freeform.  There's nobody else around these parts who knows the things you know and is willing to share.  Sometimes, like today, I like to share off the cuff thoughts, certainly nothing of great import.  

[freeform]

24 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

What gets lost with people who tend to praise siddhis is wisdom, and it is the wisdom that counts from a Buddhist POV.

One of the siddhis is wisdom 

 

Though that has a very specific definition.

 

Its not about praising siddhis - it’s simply reminding people that they are a fact.

 

It was never that controversial. Read about any talented cultivator and they talk about siddhi.

 

I don’t know that much about this - so it’s probably a really bad analogy to use…

 

But the skill of stone masons from the distant past… the ones that built all these complex structures in Egypt and Peru and so on.

 

That knowledge has been lost. Yes we have theories - but even the most modern structures don’t come out as straight or as level or as well aligned - even with laser levels and drones and complex software…

 

I recently had to help to repair a stone cabin - and my goodness is it hard! It’s a tiny cabin, I have access to modern tools - yet it’s still damn hard to keep the walls plumb and the floors level…

 

Arts die out! They literally die out because people aren’t that bothered about keeping them alive.

 

Like the proverbial frog in a pot we let things slide, we get lazy, stop striving for excellence… and little by little these things fade away into myth and legend.

 

I don’t want that to happen to cultivation.

 

I don’t want meditation to turn to relaxation!

 

That would be such a shame.

 

Don't you think?

Edited October 13, 2022 by freeform

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

 

What specific Buddhist tradition or sect these days do you think is closest to the original Buddha's teachings? Any authentic books or authors you can recommend which are closest to the true teachings of Buddha on jhannic states, samadhi, nirvana etc? 

 

This is a side tangent, but this is such an interesting discussion I thought I'd tear open this can of worms.

 

The obvious answer is theravada rather than mahayana. But theravada is a broad church.

 

In modern times, you'll see the main contention within theravada as being samatha-based systems, that emphasise jhana and trace back to the vishuddimaga, and vipassana. 

 

The vipassana approach largely centers on schools established by two teachers Mahasi Sayadaw and SN Goenka. Whereas the samatha tradition largely comes from Pa Auk Sayadaw.

 

Now a main bone of contention between the two is the visuddhimagga. This was a later codification (500 years or so after Gautauma's death) of many, many types of meditation, as well as explanation of the various jhana states.

 

It's slightly controversial though because many see its heavy emphasis on jhana as representative of the pre-Buddhist Hindu traditions, rather than what the Buddha actually taught in the suttas. Mainly the stuff that Gautauma himself had learned from aesthetics and rejected, prior to going and sitting under the Bodhi tree.

 

They see vipassana as the main practice. This is often called 'dry insight' because it does not rely on a foundation of samatha. 

 

Meanwhile those who practice samatha and jhana see those meditative skills as a tool in sharpening the mind, so that insight when it arrives is stable and permanent. They see the visuddhimagga as an exposition on the methods contained in the suttas rather than a departure from them. 

 

Now what's interesting is that many states of altered conscious, profound experiences and siddhis, normally arise from the samatha type school, rather than the vipassana stuff. The samatha crew will say those are signs their practice is working, whereas the others will say they've gone off at a tangent and even if they've mastered all eight jhanas (as the Buddha had before abandoning the path of the aesthetic) it's still not stream entry. 

 

Now, you can probably tell what camp I fall down in. Japanese Zen in particular is more on the vipassana side of things. We practice with eyes open. Practicing with eyes closed in an absorption state is considered to be 'makyo' (literally devil's cave).

 

Edit - that's a long way of saying, find what tradition best fits your own character. No one has a monopoly on authenticity, and most if not all traditions have produced enlightened masters. Work with a teacher, preferably in person.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Yeah I avoided touching on this, because it’s gonna come across like I’ve got it in for @forestofemptiness - which I don’t.

 

Spiritual cultivation isn’t like doing a PHD. 

Knowledge and scripture can certainly be supporting elements to cultivation - but not the main thing. Some people need that support, some people get trapped in it.

You're not coming across like that in my opinion...though they seem to have taken issue with the pointing out of hard truths

 

That's ok  Its nice to see good discussion flourishing again. You were missed

 

The trapping is very evident by folk who appeal to scripture and authors on the topic, due to an overemphasis on books and cognitive understanding. This isnt limited to Buddhism though..it seems to permeate all traditions

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Being a monk is like an alternative lifestyle choice in countries like Burma. 
 

It’s like when young men don’t know what to do with their life, so they join the army… it’s the same sort of thing there - just that they join a monastery instead. Sometimes families send their kids to a monastery coz they can’t afford to feed them… or they want to generate some merit for the family… orphans with nowhere to go… criminals wanting to change their ways… divorcees wanting a new life… Rich dudes that want to retire…

 

Just as most men that join the army don’t join because they want to become highly efficient killers… most people that join the monastic order don’t want to become highly cultivated meditators.

 

It’s all a big melting pot of different people with different temperaments and different aims.
 

Education is one of the big roles of monasteries - it goes from young kids learning to read - to what would be the equivalent of a university level education… it’s just all focused on scripture and various treatises by various abbots - that kinda thing.

 

Our access into the Buddhist tradition as westerners generally comes from this educational ‘wing’.

 

So yes in this scenario scriptural discussions, debates and rhetoric are an important element. That’s why we have sooooo many phd level books on Buddhism!

 

Often the smallest role in a monastery is actual spiritual cultivation. Generally monks are picked at a young age to go and study specifically for this aim under more senior monks. Often this is the least popular and lowest status of all the roles. 
 

These groups are generally not the ones giving blessings, collecting alms or giving public discourses on dharma. They’re generally hidden in some dusty corner of the monastery and live a very strict, disciplined life. 
 

While all monks practice some form of meditation - for most it’s just one of the required chores in their day something that gets in the way of scrolling through Facebook on their smartphones.

Pa Auk was one of the few places recommended to me. I was explicitly told if you want it, and you're willing to work at it, then you'll get it...

 

The problem is most people aren't willing to put in the hours needed, or make the needed sacrifices and commitment

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

And in reality we tend not to have much access to this cultivation aspect of the tradition in the west.

 

There’s not much to read or write about it. Most westerners wouldn’t handle the sort of routine or be interested.

 

Buddhism is more than a spiritual practice in the east… it’s everything from school, to university, to charity, to homeless shelter to tourist attraction - and everything in between.

 

The actual spiritual thread is thin. And it’s not what I imagined when I first tried to get to it!

 

The tradition is massive. There are many layers to it and I think we tend to forget that in the west.

 

If one wants to study actual Buddhist meditation at the level of actual spiritual cultivation (not just a 10 day silent retreat) - it’s not easy… and you really only get access if you put on your robes.

 

Only then do you get into the stuff about siddhis and Jhannas and so on...

 

Again I go back to the term "participation" trophies. I can say with all honesty...the practices I was given, are so repetitive and monotonous, I imagine it would break most people very fast. Its far easier to lower the bar so people feel like they've achieved something, then they'll stick around

[searcher7977]

53 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

 

Now, you can probably tell what camp I fall down in. Japanese Zen in particular is more on the vipassana side of things. We practice with eyes open. Practicing with eyes closed in an absorption state is considered to be 'makyo' (literally devil's cave).

 

 

I think that depends on the branch. I studied Rinzai under Meido Moore for a brief period. And the first years of all practice was susokan, or breath counting. He says that only after experiencing some type of stability, and even glimpses of kensho, do people graduate into koans. There are also practices he goes into in "Hidden Zen." Some of the monks there did chanting practices as well.

 

He never actually mentioned vipassana practice as part of the curriculum, nor in Omori Sogen's books either. We also practiced with our eyes open, and had a particular focus on maintaining peripheral vision throughout the day, not only during practice. 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

Whereas the samatha tradition largely comes from Pa Auk Sayadaw.

Pa Auk emphasises both Jhanna and Vipassana… each stage of Jhanna is investigated with the insight of Vipassana.

 

At least that was what I got from my brief time there.

 

They also go heavily into the kasinas  as entry points into absorption.

[freeform]

Lovely to see some discussion happening in a discussion forum by the way!

 

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

I'd appreciate it if one of you siddhi folks could inform me of my experience. Shouldn't be too hard, right? Preferably if you bilocate, I'll make you a cup of coffee. 

If I could bilocate, id bring you one  

 

But then, nobody here claimed anything of the sort personally.

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

It's not either or. It's both and. Study, contemplation, meditation is the Buddhist trifecta. People who are engaging in Buddhist practice should at least be versed in the basics. 

Yes the basics...but your idea of the basics and another teachers may not be aligned...Someone with a heavy emphasis on book knowledge may consider basics to be what a practitioner heavy teacher considers excessive

 

Im told to focus on what I do, not what I read...The reading will make sense later.

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

Siddhis are based, like everything else, on causes and conditions and karma.

And causes can be manipulated, conditions can be altered, and karma can be worked through

 

So what is the point?

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

What gets lost with people who tend to praise siddhis is wisdom, and it is the wisdom that counts from a Buddhist POV.

For example, in this Sutta, some one asks how monks can be enlightened without psychic powers. Spoiler: he realized the foolishness of his view. 

 

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.70/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin 

Have you ever met an enlightened being? Or even an awakened one? and if you have what signs did they show you?

 

As @freeformmentioned, wisdom is actually a siddhi

 

Its one of the ones used in the creation of Fu talismans as far as I am aware

 

Its also a means to be able to decipher and understand causality via the interaction of xing and ming.

 

At higher stages you can dip into the subconscious and extract insight from what is usually considered rubbish and meaningless by your mind.

 

In fact, one of the key aspects of Buddhism is to be able to understand causality at this level

 

But this is what happens when definitions are diluted....

 

This is exactly why i go to texts when I am told, and not try to drink every drop of the literature....Misunderstanding does not help with the spiritual path.