Shadow_self

Video as an acceptable form of evidence

A question of evidence  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you view video as an acceptable form of evidence in terms of what is routinely classified by the general public as paranormal or supernatural?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      13


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2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Funny how it’s always windy when they do it 

 

I did a better one - freaked out a whole bunch of people !

 

At certain times of year , under certain conditions , an afternoon thunderstorm can arise , virtually out the blue (sky)  and bring hail and rain rather quickly ...then its gone .

 

One time, under those  conditions , I was telling some people I could call up a storm         ..... and I did     ;) 

 

Like I said , some people WANT to be fooled  ( perhaps an unconscious want as well ) .

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10 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:


One guy in another system, Kyoukushin, attempted to fight and all the bouncing and dancing they posit as footwork only led to them being demolished because it was fighting, not ballroom or hip hop at the club.

 

Friendly spar begins, the guy lays down the rules of where it’s okay to hit and if kicks are allowed…and then goes into a frenzy and ignores the rules while also hitting hard enough to leave major bruises. Finally, my teacher said to stop playing by his rules because he’s not even following them and just to go empty instead. 
 

He ends up with a jab to the teeth, palm to the throat, and knuckle to his solar plexus because he left himself open and didn’t understand why we would hit his biceps until they went dead on him… and we didn’t even know how we hit him, we just emptied and let the fight instincts kick in.

 

Finally, returning for one more bout, timer goes off, he tries to bounce around again for ten seconds to intimidate as he had in earlier rounds. Not a second had passed before he was thrown to the wall because fighting or friendly spar, dancing isn’t going to control or harm the opponent.

 

And yes: we did document a lot of this on video. But it was better to have personal testimony so he could explain how people half his size hit harder than they appear to hit on video. 😁

 

 

Well , that type of 'footwork'   seems to work for some  ;

 

tigger-bounce.gif

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

Pretty please could you address the constant accusations of sticking wires into our anuses I think that's probably not appropriate and as far as I'm concerned that's definitely trolling. If you guys could address that, it would be very much appreciated.

 

 


I am surprised no one has presented a meme for it yet.

My recollection is the first mention of it on this forum came from a pro mo pai guy.

Edited by zerostao
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4 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Funny how it’s always windy when they do it 

 

I imagine if it wasn't, there'd be a leaf blower or fan of some sort

 

I think I actually lost brain cells just watching that video :lol:

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2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Stone breaking is an 'art' , first you need the right stone (and they can be brittle ) , just as you hit it, your other hand that is holding it , lifts the stone slightly  so it is actually the impact of the stone on the surface as it comes back down from the hit  that breaks it .

 

Its an old 'tameshiwara' trick  :)  .... there is a whole range of them .  The longer and thinner a stone slab is , the easier it will be to break .  Slabs of ice are a good one  - I have seen a huge collection of them set up, each about an inch above the other , unfortunately some began to break under their own weight while awaiting the strike :D

 

Thats , one thing , now lets get to the above gif ;  what a bastard !   These kids get  continually pummelled from early age . They develop  health problems and defects . I saw one, who was older then , do a demo, people cheered, he liked that, then he was interviewed about how it was possible , he started  looking sad and told his story, it was horrible ; he  started as a little kid  by having to constantly  ram his head into a wall - all sorts  or 'tortures' where done to him  , some of these things are actually tortures ; like being under the board with pressing weights , although in that case it could very easily be faked .   The scary thing is , it may not be faked !     Anyway, this guy went on to explain what he had to endure all through his childhood , he never had a real childhood , just got trained to be some sort of circus gimp .  He admitted he had  developed  terrible headaches ,  back problems, neck issues .... well, I wasnt surprised , they stuck his head between two concrete slabs and broke both with a blow from a sledgehammer  ... in slow mo , you  could see his head squish and flatten a bit at the blow and then 'bounce back '  .

 

You can see this as a demonstration of chi if you want  .... but I am seeing  a very different story here .

 

I see it as fake actually...Definitely not Qi but most likely some of the conditioning you mentioned. Pretty sad to do that to a child

 

You can see it break before it hits his head (see the image below)...meaning the tile was probably cracked or weakened structurally...based on the way he pulled up before impact, I assume that both softened the blow, and took some of the impact off ( not all, clearly)

Untitled.jpg

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13 hours ago, zerostao said:


I am surprised no one has presented a meme for it yet.

My recollection is the first mention of it on this forum came from a pro mo pai guy.

 

John's instructions were to sit on the ground. 

 

Jim asked if it snowed or rained for many days what could he do to continue training. 

 

John suggested a grounding wire for such instances.  

 

The grounding wire does not go inside the body into any orifices.

 

Some people connect a smooth chain to it and wrap the chain around a cushion and sit on that.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

There are actually a lot of legitimate teachers out there...Some are sitting under your nose

 

The group just have it in their head that : John said x therefore John is correct...anything which deviates from that is a no-go...we will not invest any time in a system until we see some extraordinary evidence of chi emission or whatever. I understand the sentiment...i just dont see it as a runner

 

John did whatever he did...and he gained nothing from it. He lost a lot. Go and take a look at the entitlement of people like Jim and Kostas...Jim publicly badmouthed John over and over after he was told no more...Kostas doing what he did, ended with serious ramifications for John...And he was tormented for the rest of his life by people arriving on his doorstep...prior to this, he was a peaceful healer in Indonesia...

 

Do you think another teacher really wants to open that Pandoras Box? Honestly

 

See it from the other persons perspective...You come to them, with nothing of value to offer, and expect them to show you proof of something that you can gain exponentially from, whereas they stand to lose so much. There is no balance here.

 

There is a reason people are tested for a long time prior to being left into a lineage in Asia...most people are just given an exercise or two...do this, dont ask questions....that's about the start of it...and if you can make it past the next series of stages...You might be in for a bit more...then more "tests" until you slowly make your way in...then you'll get what you want

 

I didn't mention if you don't know where these people are....you often have to know others and/or exchange large sums of money in order to even get a formal introduction to start the above process

 

So it isn't that these things aren't there...they are, and not as rare as one typically thinks...but how many people have the time, money and perseverance to go through that series of hula hoops?

 

John said worldwide there were 10 others who had gone further than level 4,  if that is accurate I could not say for sure. 

 

If he was wrong and there are thousands or tens of thousands of people like John I also couldn't say for sure.

 

I can only speak to my experience, and that is we could have had a mopai retreat center now for all the money we've wasted chasing dead ends.

 

As to us believing everything John said as gospel,  if we found a new teacher that could offer a demonstration similar to what John did and his teachings contradicted John's we would change systems.

 

"we will not invest any time in a system until we see some extraordinary evidence of chi "

 

 

 

download (1).jpeg

Edited by Iliketurtles

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I am exhausted logging in and seeing either walls of Chinese text or conversations on Mo Pai. It is as though this forum has had all the life sucked out of it.

 

Sadly, the quality of discussion is still higher than reddit, where people are insisting that you can smoke marijuana and then meditate.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I am exhausted logging in and seeing either walls of Chinese text or conversations on Mo Pai. It is as though this forum has had all the life sucked out of it.

 

Sadly, the quality of discussion is still higher than reddit, where people are insisting that you can smoke marijuana and then meditate.

 

Earl I agree with you on the topic of mopai.

 

Ask the mods to do something about it, maybe if enough people ask they will.

Edited by Iliketurtles

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4 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

I am exhausted logging in and seeing either walls of Chinese text or conversations on Mo Pai. It is as though this forum has had all the life sucked out of it.

 

Sadly, the quality of discussion is still higher than reddit, where people are insisting that you can smoke marijuana and then meditate.

 

把大麻粘在屁股上怎么办?

 

What about sticking marijuana up bum?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

I am exhausted logging in and seeing either walls of Chinese text or conversations on Mo Pai. It is as though this forum has had all the life sucked out of it.

 

Sadly, the quality of discussion is still higher than reddit, where people are insisting that you can smoke marijuana and then meditate.

 

6 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

Earl I agree with you on the topic of mopai.

 

Ask the mods to do something about it, maybe if enough people ask they will.

 
Interesting sentiment considering coming from previously banned members who for whatever reasons continue to log on here. 
z also glances over at Shadow_self.

 

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5 hours ago, zerostao said:

 

 
Interesting sentiment considering coming from previously banned members who for whatever reasons continue to log on here. 
z also glances over at Shadow_self.

 

 

Why? Is there something wrong with wanting to not see the forum dominated by an exhausting exchange that really shouldn't be repeating itself as often as it does over the years?

 

I also don't see the correlation with me being a previously banned member--so much for not holding on to old history.

 

A guy can only ask for a better place for discourse that doesn't push me and others out due to the Mo Pai debate spamming all the content here, even with the ignore option.

 

I'm not going to even pretend to be surprised if I'm next on the chopping block now for questioning this or even expressing a sentiment that a number of people are feeling (as told to me privately). The emperor may be naked and the fool may call attention to it, but of course, the fool remains a fool because the emperor is still the emperor with the power to call for his head.

 

I think I'm going to log off for a while and see myself out before you give me the boot. I need a cigarette and it's only Monday morning where I am (also, I don't even smoke).

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Posted (edited)

The two spamming mo pai all over the place have been given some time to think about it.

That is all the modding I hope to do for awhile.

Your response above could be you reading something into something that isn’t there. 

 

Edited by zerostao

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On 17.4.2022 at 12:06 AM, Nungali said:

 

 

Shotokan ! ?    Oh dear .     What a history I have had with THAT mob !

 

But I suppose we should not go too hard on them , of course that No 1 student could have been defeated - after all  Shotokan was developed as a sport  style  from  'karate' style  primary school kids physical education programme .  A very different thing from Okinawan arts that where a blend of karate ( which itself developed from Chinese Fujian  white crane and incorporated  'tegumi' , a type of native 'wrestling ' - locks, throws, take downs  etc ) and kobudo - weaponry .

 

Lesson 1 . Punching .... stomp up and down the hall punching and yelling  ..... no no , dont punch like that , pull your other hand into your hip and leave it down there , and when you punch, leave that hand sticking out there in the air with your arm straight and extended .

 

Why 'Sensai'  ?

 

So your guard will be down and I will be able to demonstrate  16 different ways to cream someone who punches wrong 

 

:) 

 

'Evil Shotokan Master '  ( :D )  ;  " WE shall subdue the world and bring all karate under the Shotokan / JKA umbrella !  "  ..... or you will not be 'recognised' as valid ' . 

 

 

Rather than on styles, I tend to focus more on the individuals demonstrating them.

 

For instance, this is a Shotokan guy too, however, he took his art way beyond what is generally associated with this style of "Japanese sport karate":

 

 

Not only does he move better than many an Okinawan style practitioner I have seen, he's also more knowledgeable than most of them.

 

That said, some 'Okinawans' do excel in both regards.

 

How can I tell such things? Only based on my decades of personal martial arts practice and research. Then you intuitively know what to look out for in a video or other kind of presentation, thus, whether or not the presenter is legit.

 

And the same applies to any other field as well. There's little chance to fake the relevant, to the eye that sees. The layman will always be easily deceived.

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On 17.4.2022 at 1:01 AM, Earl Grey said:


One guy in another system, Kyoukushin, attempted to fight and all the bouncing and dancing they posit as footwork only led to them being demolished because it was fighting, not ballroom or hip hop at the club.

 

Friendly spar begins, the guy lays down the rules of where it’s okay to hit and if kicks are allowed…and then goes into a frenzy and ignores the rules while also hitting hard enough to leave major bruises. Finally, my teacher said to stop playing by his rules because he’s not even following them and just to go empty instead. 
 

He ends up with a jab to the teeth, palm to the throat, and knuckle to his solar plexus because he left himself open and didn’t understand why we would hit his biceps until they went dead on him… and we didn’t even know how we hit him, we just emptied and let the fight instincts kick in.

 

Finally, returning for one more bout, timer goes off, he tries to bounce around again for ten seconds to intimidate as he had in earlier rounds. Not a second had passed before he was thrown to the wall because fighting or friendly spar, dancing isn’t going to control or harm the opponent.

 

And yes: we did document a lot of this on video. But it was better to have personal testimony so he could explain how people half his size hit harder than they appear to hit on video. 😁

 

In my early martial arts days, I was (to some degree) alternating between Kyokushin and Shotokan.

 

It was kind of funny... In Kyokushin class, I was cautioned not to bust anyone in the nose (those folks did tend to leave themselves open in that area, as their rules didn't allow punches to the face, and with kicks, you generally have a little more time for bringing your guard up).

 

Wheras in Shotokan class, I remember being reprimanded for covering my opponent with a barrage of body punches - rather than going for the one "killing shot" at the right moment. :D

 

Different strikes strokes for different folks!

 

But I surely took something away with me from both martial art styles, plus from a bunch of others over the years - any creative martial artist seeking to express their full potential should be open to that kind of learning from multiple sources!

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Rather than on styles, I tend to focus more on the individuals demonstrating them.

 

For instance, this is a Shotokan guy too, however, he took his art way beyond what is generally associated with this style of "Japanese sport karate":

 

 

Not only does he move better than many an Okinawan style practitioner I have seen, he's also more knowledgeable than most of them.

 

That said, some 'Okinawans' do excel in both regards.

 

How can I tell such things? Only based on my decades of personal martial arts practice and research. Then you intuitively know what to look out for in a video or other kind of presentation, thus, whether or not the presenter is legit.

 

And the same applies to any other field as well. There's little chance to fake the relevant, to the eye that sees. The layman will always be easily deceived.

 

 

yeah .... BUT  ....

 

Is that video an acceptable form of evidence ? 

 

 

:D 

 

The bolded bit is the key I think , and your comments about individuals ( my qualifier was : "  What a history I have had with THAT mob! )

 

My comments where more about 'old school' and my experiences in the past .  Back then it was verbotten to take the art 'way beyond'  any rigid guidelines  ... actually guidelines is too weak a word .

 

[ back then I actually got third place in an open Shotokan tournament  against a black belt when I was green . It was crazy, the guy was all over me  and scoring ( back then  a high level of control and focus was required - no full contact ) - in a real fight I would have been smashed . But none of his points where allowed  - much to his building frustration -   as he didnt perform his  attacks EXACTLY  the way the referee  ( Fran Nowak  ;) )  believe they should have been technically performed .   I managed to do your  classic  ( and very bad form , in this case )  Oitsuki  ... pretty badly  ... but the way  it was 'required'  and won .

 

me at the end  ;    "   won ?  :unsure:  " 

 

Back then much of it was political  ( the JKA stuff and their trying to bring all under their regulation or you would not be recognised as 'proper' ).  I realise its changed a lot now .  Some have done research looking at the roots of their art .  Some have incorporated some of the locks take downs and throws of old Okinawan karate  - which sorta  moves it away from it being Shotokan anyway .

 

Im not saying they cant fight , nor that  'school curriculum karate'  person cant fight  -    any one who trains to do a thing  A LOT and gets real time experience will be better than one who does not . 

 

As a beginner , I trained under the then  JKA all approved  and recently made 3rd Dan ( which was still a big deal back then , very hard to get a 3rd dan from JKA .... if you where not Japanese) Frank Nowak , a German and the first JKA appointed non Japanese 3rd dan .  His teacher was Kanazawa  -  the  'JKA poster boy '   ( their eidalon )  - talk about a robotic moving , ridiculously deep long stancing  . military type drill sergeant   :D  .  But still , he was good at it  , I seen him go from a crazy low deep front stance  straight into a leap over his attackers head, to hit with a back heel kick and the base of their skull .  Obviously a very risky manoeuvre  to try on  an experienced person . 

 

- anyway , the video  you posted ;

 

look at the 'attackers' punch .... other hand pulled back at the hip when he punches ?

 

Why do that ! ?   - I mean , in THAT situation they are demonstrating .   Thats exactly what I am talking about above .

 

Most people have stopped doing that in our club , becasue I keep clipping them upside their head when they do it .

 

However we do do that ....  when we practice the technique  and situation it is designed for  ,  and then it does make sense .

 

Regarding  Rick , a lot of what he shows is pretty much what we do , I mean, a lot of his application / techniques , he has 'developed ' / discovered (?)  as he says  " WE dont normally think about that ."  Well , I do  and 'my we' does , as its all in there from the beginning .  I might even venture to say Rick made Shotokan better by going back to where they got it from in the first place and 'reversed the changes they made to it ' . to make it Shotokan .

 

Also a lot of Jap karate has re introduced weaponry back into it .  Early days , you never even saw a bo . Old days in  Okinawa ' karate kobudo went 'hand ' in 'hand' .

 

I thought he missed a point about his  1 ... 2    ( moves ) at the end  , thats a typical thing I see in  karate  .... its application might be better understood if one considers a big part of karate early influence being white crane

 

ie  , 'wings closing'   -  in karate ; 'cross arms '  or  ' the wind up ' or as some refer to it 'loading ' ( evade, deflect, catch, direct or control ), wings open -  seizing, controlling at striking  ( or they can be reversed ) ,  we see it in the performance  of nearly every 'block' , except it is 'angled ' ;  inner and outer 'block' angled horizontally , upper block angled up diagonally ,  downward block  angled  down diagonally , in performance of shuto .... all through the moves actually .

 

Oh, by the way , I am not surprised you think he can move better than many Okinawan style practitioners ..... some of them seem to have gotten 'worse'  than the people I criticise !   And they teach all that standard  'school kid' stuff .   Why ?  becasue they have clubs and want to make money and most of their students are school kids  ( that are going to drop out , so hit them with fees , uniform charge .... any charge you can think of, before they take off  .... thats 'business'  ... and a big reason why I refuse to charge  ( or even pay my 'instructor'   ;)  - I do however make a quarterly  ' club donation' , to keep the thing going )

 

Edited by Nungali

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14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

In my early martial arts days, I was (to some degree) alternating between Kyokushin and Shotokan.

 

It was kind of funny... In Kyokushin class, I was cautioned not to bust anyone in the nose (those folks did tend to leave themselves open in that area, as their rules didn't allow punches to the face, and with kicks, you generally have a little more time for bringing your guard up).

 

Wheras in Shotokan class, I remember being reprimanded for covering my opponent with a barrage of body punches - rather than going for the one "killing shot" at the right moment. :D

 

Different strikes strokes for different folks!

 

But I surely took something away with me from both martial art styles, plus from a bunch of others over the years - any creative martial artist seeking to express their full potential should be open to that kind of learning from multiple sources!

 

 

Re the bolded bit :

 

There was contention amongst the corner refs when I won as a green against the black belt .   Some didnt like my initial attack  as it was not at an accepted target. Opponent was a VERY tall guy with very long limbs , he was outreaching everybody , and had been winning by relying on that advantage . He started by sticking his long arm and fist out in  your face , even a side kick, your kick would not reach into him beyond his arm reach . he kept sticking it out in my face .  It annoyed me so I kicked his hand , seemed the obvious solution , not that anyone taught me to do that .   He went owwie owie ow ow ,  lost his whole body focus , hunched up and  shook his hand in the air and then grabbed it with the other one , slightly stepping up and a bit forward as he did . I came in with a classic oitsuki ( being careful to retract my other (guard) hand back  to hip and away from any useful guard  , as I had been taught . And Frank ( ring ref ) explodes, blows his little whistle , goes into an exaggerated front stance pointing at me and screams  " IPPON ! "   (one pont, a kill, a win ).

 

2 corner judges didnt want to allow it as I kicked his hand 'not a proper target '   . Krank insisted as I was coming forward , and opponent was coming forward and I did the technique as required ( all needed to score a 'kill' ) , of course Frank held  Veto, and I was awarded the win ... much to the ego fury of my opponent . 

 

Thats what I mean by  'karate as a sport '  .  That guy would have creamed me on the street ,  but this was a sport, with rules and requirements of delivering technique 'correctly' .

 

.... and I won 4  cheap drinking glasses in a cardboard display box with  luxury car logos on them  ..... whooopeee !     :D 

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On 4/16/2022 at 6:59 PM, Nungali said:

 

Stone breaking is an 'art' , first you need the right stone (and they can be brittle ) , just as you hit it, your other hand that is holding it , lifts the stone slightly  so it is actually the impact of the stone on the surface as it comes back down from the hit  that breaks it .

 

Its an old 'tameshiwara' trick  :)  .... there is a whole range of them .  The longer and thinner a stone slab is , the easier it will be to break .  Slabs of ice are a good one  - I have seen a huge collection of them set up, each about an inch above the other , unfortunately some began to break under their own weight while awaiting the strike :D

 

Thats , one thing , now lets get to the above gif ;  what a bastard !   These kids get  continually pummelled from early age . They develop  health problems and defects . I saw one, who was older then , do a demo, people cheered, he liked that, then he was interviewed about how it was possible , he started  looking sad and told his story, it was horrible ; he  started as a little kid  by having to constantly  ram his head into a wall - all sorts  or 'tortures' where done to him  , some of these things are actually tortures ; like being under the board with pressing weights , although in that case it could very easily be faked .   The scary thing is , it may not be faked !     Anyway, this guy went on to explain what he had to endure all through his childhood , he never had a real childhood , just got trained to be some sort of circus gimp .  He admitted he had  developed  terrible headaches ,  back problems, neck issues .... well, I wasnt surprised , they stuck his head between two concrete slabs and broke both with a blow from a sledgehammer  ... in slow mo , you  could see his head squish and flatten a bit at the blow and then 'bounce back '  .

 

You can see this as a demonstration of chi if you want  .... but I am seeing  a very different story here .

Ya seems a bit abusive. The rest of the video has way more intense stuff like breaking spears braced on their throats and the ground by breaking stones over their backs etc, holding he kid by the ankles and breaking a  huge stone  with his head  like a jackhammer so it gets worse from that perspective. You should watch the full video if you haven't from my original reply it's nuts.

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15 hours ago, Klinsly said:

Ya seems a bit abusive. The rest of the video has way more intense stuff like breaking spears braced on their throats and the ground by breaking stones over their backs etc, holding he kid by the ankles and breaking a  huge stone  with his head  like a jackhammer so it gets worse from that perspective. You should watch the full video if you haven't from my original reply it's nuts.

 

In my next demonstration I shall break this baseball bat  ..... by holding a child's ankles, moving forward while doing  figure 8 twirls with him and then on the down stroke , break the bat in two with his face  .....   ready  ?

 

Spoiler

"  OI !   Come back here ya little runt ! "

 

grandfather-running-grandson-having-fun-

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/14/2022 at 2:50 PM, Shadow_self said:

 

Do you think any of the above is an acceptable as a form of evidence for such claims?

 

 

In and of itself, videos (and pictures) are not sufficient to be taken as solid evidence that some phenomenon is real. Aside from sleight of hand and similar physical tricks used by stage magicians and in movies, technology in the form of software and apps for editing and modifying videos and photos keeps improving, and is readily available to most anyone these days. We have been beyond the point of being able to trust videos and pictures alone, on their own, for quite a few years now. However, video evidence in conjunction with other forms of evidence which adds further support to what is shown in the video or photo can start to add more weight to what is shown. For example, statements from people who have witnessed it in person can start to add more weight to what is shown in video or in a picture if you have some way to reasonably judge the credibility and reliability of the witness or witnesses. Seeing such things yourself in person, can add even more weight to something being legit, but of course a crafty person can often easily fool many people that something is real when in fact it is a trick.

 

Also, in regards to stuff like 'empty force', some people are very suggestible and therefore it is very hard to rule out suggestibility (subject is unconsciously cooperating with the other person due to being very suggestible). For example, one 'empty force tai chi 'master' I visited in person in the past could make some of his students fall off balance by just waving his hands around, but it had no effect on me when he tried it on me, and I felt nothing at all when he waved his hands at me. I could only conclude that what was going on had more to do with suggestibility of some of his students than anything to do with qi. 

 

As an example of how further evidence on top of video evidence can potentially hold more weight, evidence wise, in the case of the late John Chang of mo pai, several westerners over the years have witnessed in person some of the things he could do and some made videos or wrote about it, and several have stated that they believe it was real. In my own case, I have personally witnessed in person some similar phenomena from a few other different qigong masters over the years, and I have no doubt that what I personally witnessed was legit, (feeling strong qi projected at me from a distance, feeling like I was being electrocuted when touched, and seeing telekinesis performed right in front of me just a few feet away), so my personal opinion is what John Chang showed in video clips is probably legit. That is just my opinion though, in the end. I have personally experienced and seen enough evidence of such things that I have no doubt that such things are legit phenomena, but the legit stuff seems to be fairly rare. Most of what you see on Youtube and similar though is likely fake, as most people posting such videos are either doing it as a joke, or they are seeking attention, or they are trying to make money from it on their monetized Youtube channel, or through some expensive 'online courses' or similar, since such types of videos tend to get large amounts of views and attract a lot of attention. So, within all the muck and mire of fake videos and photos and fake or self-deluded 'masters' out there, I have personally found that there are some real gems, although the gems are quite rare, and it can take a lot of time and effort to find the rare gems amidst all the mountains of muck.:) 

 

As an example of how easy it is to fool people with videos, the following video was made by some digital graphics arts students as a course project, and it fooled millions of viewers when it was first posted before the channel owners updated the video comments to explain that the video was not real, and was made as a digital graphics course project. :) This video was made in 2012 by students! The technology for editing videos and photos has improved quite a bit since 2012, so just imagine how easily an experienced digital graphics arts person could fool people these days. :) : 

Golden Eagle Snatches Kid - YouTube

 

P.S. How do I make a Youtube video show up here in a video player box, instead of just appearing as a link? 

 

Edited by Iskote

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Posted (edited)

For me it goes a level further.  Doubt is foundational in all.

 

Our own perceptual modeling is untrustworthy for accuracy and detail.

It is not the world, it is a recreation.  A story. 

 

We do not experience the world, nature, universe as it is.  We interpret the signals we receive that are transduced into thoughts that are taken as reality, but this process is always a model, a map, never the territory itself. 

 

Perceptual modeling is entirely subjective and personal (though subject to familial and social programming from ages 0-7ish).   So even our presence and direct watching is no guaranty of accuracy and reliability. 

This is not a truth I claim, i share how it stands in my awareness in recent years and indicentally is quite a departure from my earlier notions.

Edited by silent thunder
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I was wondering when someone would bring that up .     Many a time on Daobums (and elsewhere) a discussion has been had about  if what we observe, in person, 'live' , with our senses is accurate, or indeed ,  'real' .

 

......   but some forget about this when discussing the veracity of  ' video' .

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4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

For me it goes a level further.  Doubt is foundational in all.

Our own perceptual modeling is untrustworthy for accuracy and detail.

It is not the world, it is a recreation.  A story. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I was wondering when someone would bring that up .     Many a time on Daobums (and elsewhere) a discussion has been had about  if what we observe, in person, 'live' , with our senses is accurate, or indeed ,  'real' .

......   but some forget about this when discussing the veracity of  ' video' .

 

My opinion is we should strive to be practical. :) If I drop a heavy hammer on your foot of both of you two, whether you are paying any attention or not when I do it, you will most likely immediately be yelping in pain (if you have any feeling at all in your feet) and both of you will likely experience some injury to your foot. When we are talking about physical effects in 'consensus reality' at the 'macro' level, methods can be used to determine if something actually 'physically'  happened or not,  and what the nature of that physical event was. That is the basis of the physical sciences, after all.  A person can philosophize all they want, and that's great, but being careful not to drop a heavy hammer on your foot or to not walk off the edge of a high cliff, is advisable. :) 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 25/04/2022 at 8:02 AM, Iskote said:

 

 

My opinion is we should strive to be practical. :) If I drop a heavy hammer on your foot of both of you two, whether you are paying any attention or not when I do it, you will most likely immediately be yelping in pain (if you have any feeling at all in your feet) and both of you will likely experience some injury to your foot. When we are talking about physical effects in 'consensus reality' at the 'macro' level, methods can be used to determine if something actually 'physically'  happened or not,  and what the nature of that physical event was. That is the basis of the physical sciences, after all.  A person can philosophize all they want, and that's great, but being careful not to drop a heavy hammer on your foot or to not walk off the edge of a high cliff, is advisable. :) 

 

 

 

Hmmm .... your example started off with YOU dropping the hammer on our feet  .... and summarised  with us 'being careful not to drop a heavy  hammer on our own feet' .   ?

 

Interesting .

 

Anyway,  why is the feeling of  pain the regulator of reality  ... when any feeling can be illusory as well ?

 

 

Regarding consensus reality , that's a better point .  I remember hearing a talk from a Buddhist monk on 'illusion and reality ' , afterwards I was talking to him and he again bought up the points he made in the talk . I mentioned the point about consensus reality  and he responded with  ;  " Well, ....  yes, there IS that too . "

 

;)

 

 

Edited by Nungali

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