Why is nothingness/emptiness/lack of ego the desired state?

[helpfuldemon]

I don't understand how this became to be desired.  Sure, it is peaceful and you don't cause any problems in the world, but is it really the best state to be in?  I think desire is fine, and chasing your desire is the spice of life.  Why do so many want to attain to nothingness and lack of ego?  Is life so painful?  

[C T]

Where Buddhist vipassana is concerned, the practitioner investigates the notion of no-thingness, not 'nothingness'. Understanding the vast difference between the two is a worthwhile endeavour. As my friend Paramito observed, "The prospect of nothingness is bleak, whereas the reality of no-thingness is liberating."

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, C T said:

Where Buddhist vipassana is concerned, the practitioner investigates the notion of no-thingness, not 'nothingness'. Understanding the vast difference between the two is a worthwhile endeavour. As my friend Paramito observed, "The prospect of nothingness is bleak, whereas the reality of no-thingness is liberating."

 

Indeed,  "no-thing"...  eastern and common western definitions don't always match up.  I suggest to the OP to take a look at some of Alan Watts material which might help to get a further handle on such meanings.

Edited January 5, 2022 by old3bob

[Trunk]

16 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I don't understand how this became to be desired.  Sure, it is peaceful and you don't cause any problems in the world, but is it really the best state to be in?  I think desire is fine, and chasing your desire is the spice of life.  Why do so many want to attain to nothingness and lack of ego?  Is life so painful?  

 

No one stays in one state all the time.  Sometimes we are in our basic human state, sometimes we are in a vajra state.  The idea is to become gradually more integral, functional, skillful, fluent ... with different aspects of ourselves.

 

'Emptiness' is returning to the One energy, humbling ourselves, cleansing, submerging and integrating into that.

 

p.s.

You might find my (mostly a series of art, very little text) essay "Enso, Emptiness and the Deep-Centers" to be helpful.

 

 

[steve]

"Why is nothingness/emptiness/lack of ego the desired state?"

 

17 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I don't understand how this became to be desired.  Sure, it is peaceful and you don't cause any problems in the world, but is it really the best state to be in?  I think desire is fine, and chasing your desire is the spice of life.  Why do so many want to attain to nothingness and lack of ego?  Is life so painful?  

 

There are probably as many reasons why such a state is desired as there are people who desire it, but the Buddhist teachings on emptiness are not about desiring such a state. In fact, desiring such a state can be the greatest obstacle to connecting with it.

 

The teachings on emptiness are about having a deeper understand of reality and of ourselves.

If we understand ourselves better, we can experience more freedom and possibility, life can be more fulfilling and more productive.

 

Emptiness is the very essence of our being.

Not only is this an important tenet of Buddhism, discovered through experiential practices dating back millenia; the truth of this is borne out by experimental observations and consistent with contemporary physics in terms of identifying the fundamental nature of things.If we have a deeper understanding of the truth of emptiness, we gain deeper insight into ourselves and everything around us. 

 

Developing a deeper experiential relationship with these teachings and practices is the only way to understand its value.

Having a conceptual understanding only is fraught with misunderstanding and is generally of little value from my observation.

One of these misunderstandings is the idea that this sort of practice is an attempt to run away from the pains and pleasures of life. 

It's not that at all. Working towards a deep understanding of emptiness requires facing life head-on, without distraction.

It is the chasing of desires and getting embroiled in the conflicts and unsatisfactory nature of things which are the distraction.

 

If you feel that desire is fine and adds spice to life, then by all means pursue it!

Enjoy it! 

Relish this rare opportunity, human existence, to indulge in it.

If you ever find that you tire of chasing desires or struggling with fears, anxiety, conflict, and so forth, then there may be value in pursuing the Buddhist teachings. 

 

[old3bob]

There are a volumes and volumes of well recognized Buddhist teachings and scripture, which includes some from very different sects with various interpretations or practices ranging for instance from Zen to Tibetan Buddhism... but there is also a non-sectarian novel that someone who has never read anything on Buddhism might want to read,  namely:

 

Quote:

"Siddhartha (by Hermann Hesse) is an easy, quick read – you won't want to put it down! Even for those who don't like to read, Siddhartha is not intimidating. The themes the book explores are important and universal, but the language itself is easy to understand. The book is short and the story is mesmerizing – you'll be hooked!Dec 15, 2015"

 

 

Adder:  I brought this up as something one could read as an option to the potentially mind blowing debates about no-self of Buddhism and the Self of Vedanta.

Edited January 5, 2022 by old3bob

[Geof Nanto]

7 hours ago, steve said:

"Why is nothingness/emptiness/lack of ego the desired state?"

 

 

There are probably as many reasons why such a state is desired as there are people who desire it, but the Buddhist teachings on emptiness are not about desiring such a state. In fact, desiring such a state can be the greatest obstacle to connecting with it.

 

The teachings on emptiness are about having a deeper understand of reality and of ourselves.

If we understand ourselves better, we can experience more freedom and possibility, life can be more fulfilling and more productive.

 

Emptiness is the very essence of our being.

Not only is this an important tenet of Buddhism, discovered through experiential practices dating back millenia; the truth of this is borne out by experimental observations and consistent with contemporary physics in terms of identifying the fundamental nature of things.If we have a deeper understanding of the truth of emptiness, we gain deeper insight into ourselves and everything around us. 

 

Developing a deeper experiential relationship with these teachings and practices is the only way to understand its value.

Having a conceptual understanding only is fraught with misunderstanding and is generally of little value from my observation.

One of these misunderstandings is the idea that this sort of practice is an attempt to run away from the pains and pleasures of life. 

It's not that at all. Working towards a deep understanding of emptiness requires facing life head-on, without distraction.

It is the chasing of desires and getting embroiled in the conflicts and unsatisfactory nature of things which are the distraction.

 

If you feel that desire is fine and adds spice to life, then by all means pursue it!

Enjoy it! 

Relish this rare opportunity, human existence, to indulge in it.

If you ever find that you tire of chasing desires or struggling with fears, anxiety, conflict, and so forth, then there may be value in pursuing the Buddhist teachings. 

 

 

Worth repeating your whole post. I particularly like it that you included the last few sentences. 

 

For me deeper down, I only do this because, all things considered, it's the easiest path for me. That's how Dao works, why it's sometimes referred to as the Watercourse Way. Mine has been a path of following my desires, of doing what I felt like, and then dealing with the consequences. Initially these consequences, though pleasurable at first, had almost entirely unpleasant consequences. But slowly through an alchemical process of refinement using the whole of life as fire and cauldron, my desires have slowly transmuted into something far more harmonious with Dao.

 

This could also be called a path of following one's heart. And sure, I am forced to gain insight into rotten aspects of my heart. No way is this pleasant! Yet it's still the easiest thing for me to do because not dealing with it feels like stagnation and a slow death of my heart; of my soul. That's what happens with inner cultivation. My alignment with Dao strengthens and I'm compelled to act accordingly because I gain a glimpse of an awe-inspiring deeper reality. I’ve found nothing that compares to the sense of wholeness, of inner belonging, which a felt connection with the numinous mystery I choose to call Self brings. 

 

Sure, it can be difficult, but it's meaningful difficulty. And always it's about finding the easiest way through. Through a long process of inner exploration, of trial and error, I've found that the easiest way through means continually refining away obstructions within my psyche that hinder my intrinsic connection with Self.  

 

Experience has taught me that everyone must find their own unique way forward. It’s as if we all have our own difficult inner equation to solve. But there’s plenty of wise guidance available for those who seek it.  My natural affinity is for the path of ming-xing cultivation, with Daoist yangsheng (nourishing life) methods fundamental to ming cultivation and Jung’s insights particularly helpful for my xing cultivation. 
 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Yueya

[steve]

In reading Rovelli’s Helgoland, I came across his use of quantum mechanics to describe our fundamental condition. His relational model of quantum theory is essentially a mathematical exposition of interdependent co-arising and, concurrently, emptiness of self and other.

 

Some ups and downs in the book for me but excellent overall for those interested in the areas where science and spirituality intersect. 

 

[stirling]

It's not so much that it is desired - it is the basis of everything , and the underlying absolute reality of how things are. When all clinging and aversion drop away, "this" is what is left. It is also not a "state" (which would be impermanent) for the same reason. It is omnipresent.

 

What is appealing about it is the relief of not living in the ridiculous fantasy you tortured yourself with. If your life is truly a completely comfortable wonderland full of exotic surprises and delights, I wouldn't bother.

Edited January 7, 2022 by stirling

[Michael Sternbach]

In my understanding, it's more about formlessness than about emptiness. Being able to flow with outer and inner occurrences.

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 1/4/2022 at 2:03 PM, helpfuldemon said:

Why is nothingness/emptiness/lack of ego the desired state?

I don't understand how this became to be desired.  Sure, it is peaceful and you don't cause any problems in the world, but is it really the best state to be in?  I think desire is fine, and chasing your desire is the spice of life.  Why do so many want to attain to nothingness and lack of ego?  Is life so painful?  

Gautama's insight had to do with the nature of suffering.  He gave several expositions of the chain of cause and effect that leads to suffering--my favorite runs something like this:

ignorance > actions that arise from "determinate thought" > stationing of consciousness >feeling > craving > identification of self with body, feelings, mind, habitual tendencies, or consciousness.

According to Gautama, the identification of self with any of the five categories was identically suffering.

The chain doesn't make sense until we experience the cessation of action born of "determinate thought".  Gautama taught that such action ceases first in speech, then in the body, and finally in the mind (in "perceiving and feeling"), and that these cessations occur in specific states of concentration.   That's what sitting down cross-legged, holding the body upright, and placing mindfulness in front is all about, the cessation of action born of "determinate thought" through the natural occurrence of states of concentration.

The state where volitive "perceiving and feeling" ceases was Gautama's singular achievement, and the source of his insight into the chain of causation.  As to how he attained the cessation of "perceiving and feeling", he said:  "by means of lack of desire."

If you see the suffering in grasping after a sense of self, then you may find yourself moved to find a way to the cessation of that suffering.  Such a way is what Gautama taught.   

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Eduardo]

There is a mistake with the concept of emptiness, nothingness, and the lack of the ego.
I will refer to Buddhism to try to explain those terms.

1. In Theravāda Buddhism, Suññatā often refers to the non-self, nature, or lack of an unchanging self. It is affirmed that in the human being there is only one flow of consciousness that varies that is not fixed, since it is modified in the states of sleep, dreamless sleep and in wakefulness itself.
2. Nothingness is only a plane that is accessed through meditation (It is a Jhana) but is overcome by the Buddha, since it does not lead to the final peace of nibbana. 
3. In Buddhism, the term anattā (Pali) or anātman (Sanskrit) refers to the doctrine of "not-self": that no permanent, unchanging self or essence can be found in any phenomenon. Similarly, Buddhists speak of a stream of consciousness rather than an unchanging self.
4. In Taoism, for its part, the concept of emptiness is used by the influence of Mahayana Buddhism, and indeed in some Taoist traditions, it is said that this reality has never existed, that it is an illusion, a mirage.
5. Some schools of thought (e.g. Dzogchen) consider perceived reality to be unreal.
6. The dream of the yellow millet is related to the dream that the immortal Lü Dongbin had to suffer in which he rises in political position and then falls precipitously, exemplifying the emptiness of the world of men.
7. Nothingness is also a concept used in Taoism and can be found as one of the stages that the meditator encounters.
8. Regarding the lack of ego or self, in Taoism immortality is sought for the same reason the lack of a self is the property of Buddhist currents.

[steve]

2 hours ago, Eduardo said:

Some schools of thought (e.g. Dzogchen) consider perceived reality to be unreal.

 

I’ve received quite a number of dzogchen teachings and never once was perceived reality described as unreal. I think that’s a bit of a mis-characterization.

[ralis]

34 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I’ve received quite a number of dzogchen teachings and never once was perceived reality described as unreal. I think that’s a bit of a mis-characterization.

 

I remember way back in 1989 during a retreat here in New Mexico that Namkhai Norbu said "just because it's an illusion doesn't mean it isn't real." That may not be his exact words, but close.

[natural]

51 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

I remember way back in 1989 during a retreat here in New Mexico that Namkhai Norbu said "just because it's an illusion doesn't mean it isn't real." That may not be his exact words, but close.

 

In that your reality may not be mine?

Either of which maybe widely shared, or disregarded?

 

 

[ralis]

8 minutes ago, natural said:

 

In that your reality may not be mine?

Either of which maybe widely shared, or disregarded?

 

 

 

Important question! In terms of Dzogchen transmissions everyone will perceive it differently. I have been around any number of Dzogchen practitioners and for the most part there are differences in the experience. Although, I could be wrong.

[old3bob]

From chapter 25 of the T.T.C.

 

"There was something undefined and yet complete in itself,

Born before Heaven and Earth.

Silent and boundless,

Standing alone without change,

Yet pervading all without fail... "   

 

(this sounds a lot more parallel to me with Vedanta and the Self than with common Buddhist attempts

at certain correlations with Taoism,  but for those inclined it is something debatable for a lifetime or more ;-)

[ralis]

25 minutes ago, old3bob said:

From chapter 25 of the T.T.C.

 

"There was something undefined and yet complete in itself,

Born before Heaven and Earth.

Silent and boundless,

Standing alone without change,

Yet pervading all without fail... "   

 

(this sounds a lot more parallel to me with Vedanta and the Self than with common Buddhist attempts

at certain correlations with Taoism,  but for those inclined it is something debatable for a lifetime or more ;-)

 

I have been trying to comprehend it since I was a kid. Only to be left with a fractured brain. 

[ralis]

The main problem is that humans haven't developed a language to explain emptiness, no self, higher states of consciousness, etc. Teachings such as Dzogchen are mind to mind with symbolic representations which bypasses language. Disposing of the limited binary language that we are so accustomed to is a place to begin. In other words, one begins to realize real potential.

[steve]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

From chapter 25 of the T.T.C.

 

"There was something undefined and yet complete in itself,

Born before Heaven and Earth.

Silent and boundless,

Standing alone without change,

Yet pervading all without fail... "   

 

(this sounds a lot more parallel to me with Vedanta and the Self than with common Buddhist attempts

at certain correlations with Taoism,  but for those inclined it is something debatable for a lifetime or more ;-)

 

Equally compatible with the dzogchen view. The critical point is realization of the base, which has the nature of space and clarity. ‘Standing alone’ refers to the unbounded and pervasive aspect and ‘without change’ is a characteristic of space, or emptiness.

[ralis]

@natural

 

Please tell what you are confused about. 

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Equally compatible with the dzogchen view. The critical point is realization of the base, which has the nature of space and clarity. ‘Standing alone’ refers to the unbounded and pervasive aspect and ‘without change’ is a characteristic of space, or emptiness.

 

I appreciate what you are stating, but anyone not having direct exposure to Dzogchen transmission has no idea what you are talking about. 

[natural]

3 minutes ago, ralis said:

@natural

 

Please tell what you are confused about. 

 

My apologies, but I remain confused about almost everything.

[ralis]

24 minutes ago, natural said:

 

My apologies, but I remain confused about almost everything.

 

No apology necessary! This can be an insanely confusing topic which can be discussed for the next million years or so.  Perhaps confusion is the path to wisdom? 

[natural]

5 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

No apology necessary! This can be an insanely confusing topic which can be discussed for the next million years or so.  Perhaps confusion is the path to wisdom? 

I for one remain hopeful !