Asking who I am is a bullshit

[Procurator]

Then it's just about sharing if the person has the ears to hear it. Real masters are very simple, they have the proof, they don't need to demonstrate it to every jackass who says, "then prove it!"

 

Water is poison to you?

on the second or third day of dry-fasting correctly I invariably experience two symptoms: 1. elimination of thirst .2 even a small sip of water causes physical revulsion, sharp pain in the kidneys and nausea.

 

 

Money means nothing? My friend, my friend, you don't have to prove it to me, but is this something you think or something you really experience?

several times in my life i have walked away from a 6 figure salary. Admittedly it is easier for me than for the others since my destiny is money-prone - i can always earn enough for basics without much effort.

[Ian]

I usually don't get personal on the web but sometimes I'm driven to try an intervention -

Have you ever asked yourself why you are always so negative and hurtful? Your voice on the forum is always angry and disdainful. It sounds like the voice of one who is in a lot of pain. it's quite sad, particularly since you seem to have some degree of knowledge you could share. On the other hand, it's obvious that your own cup is full to the point of overflowing. It might change your outlook if you could empty it, just a bit... and perhaps try a kind word, even once.

Wishing you the best...

 

Any answer, Mr P?

[松永道]

Procurator, so you don't need water or money. That's pretty cool. Seems you're an adept. May I ask what you're still doing here then? I mean, college students don't generally hang out with a bunch of middle schoolers, they have better things to do. Hold on, there are some, but they are teachers.

 

Are you a teacher?

[wudangspirit]

In Taoism this is also practiced. It is one of the first steps to non-attachment and non-doing. You have to forget yourself in order to reveal your true self. After you done that you will no longer ask the question nor have the need to ask "who am I".

 

I wouldn't criticize other practices unless you know what those practices are really trying to do. Maybe it's just not for you. Taoism is a very narrow and disciplined path. Not sure about all the buddhist practices but I'm sure you'd also say the same about Taoism.

 

You would really miss out on life if everytime something seem impossible you just wouldn't try. Don't sell yourself short. Maybe something disciplined and hard is worth doing.

 

Wudangspirit

 

Asking," who am I ?" is a Zen Buddhist way towards Enlightenment ,suitable for real genius or talents , not for ordinary earthly ,married guys .Seldom can you nourish the vigorous dragon from that pool of static water by following this path.

[steve]

no Sir, it is not for me.

No. You smply dont know what are you talking about.

If what you are isn't good enough for you, you will never be happy. You can never be anything other than what you are.

You still never answered the original question - how long did you try the method that you are criticizing before reaching your conclusions?

You should read The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali and the Vedanta Upanishads - your ignorance regarding the origins of the "Who Am I" technique is showing.

You belong to this world.

I belong to the other world.

 

What is good and benign in your world is bad in mine. Whole grain bread and water that quenches the thirst are poisons to me, career and wealth is just dust under my feet.

 

Similarly what in my world is a constructive criticizm, good natured fun, friendly advice etc. comes across in your world as negativity, wet blanket, discouragment and such like.

 

Nothing personal we are just from different worlds ok?

 

Dont be sad, and I promise to cheer up too. I will even stop by the book club and leave a comment or two. Lets us all just get along, shall we.

Nothing personal. In case you hadn't noticed there is just the one world for us all to share. A bit of consideration for others helps to achieve that.

[Procurator]

Any answer, Mr P?

oh please Ian call me Pro, dont stand on ceremony. After all i am a pro.

 

Now answers: am I a bad person? But of course. Am I disdainful and hurtful? Towards certain things and people - sure. Am i in pain or angry? No, not at all. Empty my cup? Here is what a patriarch of my Chen lineage used to say: let's spar - if you win I will ask to be your student; if I win - I will pay your hospital bills. Show me tangible results or at least refer to an authority - i will empty my cup.

 

the irony is that i get this grief from a person who first knocks people uncounscious and then cuts them open with sharp implements. Oh the anger, oh the horror!

 

 

 

 

 

You should read The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali and the Vedanta Upanishads - your ignorance regarding the origins of the "Who Am I" technique is showing.

 

sure i am ignorant. Please provide a reference a quote or tell me which chapter and verse of which edition you are referring to.

 

 

May I ask what you're still doing here then?

 

Are you a teacher?

No i am not. Doing 3 things - 1. study the experience of the others 2. earning karmic benefits by giving advice or by discouraging folks from hurting themselves 3. chatting for the heck of it i am a chatty person if the subject interests me.

 

 

 

You still never answered the original question - how long did you try the method that you are criticizing before reaching your conclusions?

oh please, of course I have never tried it. How many times did you try drinking gasoline before reaching a conclusion that it might be not that good for you?

[steve]

oh please, of course I have never tried it. How many times did you try drinking gasoline before reaching a conclusion that it might be not that good for you?

What's the point?

Have a nice day!

[松永道]

No i am not. Doing 3 things - 1. study the experience of the others 2. earning karmic benefits by giving advice or by discouraging folks from hurting themselves 3. chatting for the heck of it i am a chatty person if the subject interests me.

 

Good enough for me! What a beautiful thing, the root of things. We are all the same after all.

 

...but who are we?

Edited March 17, 2008 by 松永道

[exorcist_1699]

Never do I think that "Who am I?" is a question that philosophy can answer, so ,right from the very beginning I have been talking about it in the context of Zen Buddhist's treatment of it, ie, using it as method attaining Enlightenment.So, some of the arguments from Xuesheng just sound pointless to me.

 

I always think that as a taoist, there are two areas of knowledge we must grasp : one is TCM , another one is Zen Buddhism. I have talked about TCM's importance in other topic on this forum , so there is no need to repeat here. Regarding Zen , I always think that all the best sayings regarding spiritual cultivation are spoken by the Zen masters. However, as many taoist Masters already pointed out , the Zen preachings , in fact ,deliberately skip many explanations on the physical part of cultivation . As our spiritual cultivation deepens , our body also experience huge changes, sometime even dangerous, but the Zen masters just seldom talked about it , at least , publicly . Why? You think they achieve it just by asking "Who am I?" ?

 

Anyone who has some knowledge on the history of Chinese Zen Buddhism knows why Zen recedes and its outcome. We can't go into details here. My understanding is ,simply speaking , it was a system too superb but there were too few talents to sustain it . The Zen cases, asking "who am I" is one of the famous among them, finally degenerated into some kind of philosophical bullshit , a vulgarization of a superb system not because of the system or method itself has problems , but because of incompetence of the people , the followers. No reason ,up to this moment, persuades me to believe that the westerners will do it better than the Chinese.

 

I am also accused of barring people from trying or practicing a valuable way of cultivation . But is it true? If I am preventing people from testing a funny sports , a new kind of hobby , or a school of kung fu ,or as MYthmaker put it :

 

"I define the success of this method as people being worried and unhappy immediately smiling or laughing and no longer worried or unhappy after using this method."

 

then maybe I have to admit my "crime".

 

However, right from the beginning I said " Seldom can you nourish the vigorous dragon from that pool of static water by following this path.". So, I was talking about something whether it can make you have a huge jump from just experiencing calmness and some happiness ( which unfortunately is still in that pool of dead water ) to experiencing something really dynamic and immense.

 

Why the taoist masters repeatedly preach: "grasping the universe in our hands"? You think it is just an artistic expression ?

 

 

 

.

Edited March 17, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[mYTHmAKER]

I am also accused of barring people from trying or practicing a valuable way of cultivation . But is it true? If I am preventing people from testing a funny sports , a new kind of hobby , or a school of kung fu ,or as MYthmaker put it :

 

"I define the success of this method as people being worried and unhappy immediately smiling or laughing and no longer worried or unhappy after using this method."

 

then maybe I have to admit my "crime".

 

However, right from the beginning I said " Seldom can you nourish the vigorous dragon from that pool of static water by following this path.". So, I was talking about something whether it can make you have a huge jump from just experiencing calmness and some happiness ( which unfortunately is still in that pool of dead water ) to experiencing something really dynamic and immense.

.

 

The problem as I see it was way you expressed yourself " Asking who I am is a bullshit"

You are not preventing anyone from trying anything but perhaps influencing them.

For your "crime" you are hereby sentenced to not put something down before you have tried it or have some personal understanding of it

Ramana Maharshi was enlightened by this method as was H.W.L. Poonjaji and others.

I can't speak for Gangaji's state but she seems to be in a pretty good place.

[steve]

Exorcist_1699 - Please help me to understand your motivation here.

What's the point in condemning a practice you have no interest in and no experience with?

If you would like to try it, try it.

If not, that's fine. There are endless other possibilities.

Why bother to post about something you have no interest in learning about it?

Why put forth an opinion without any experience to support your view?

That does no good for you and no good for others.

This is not an attack - I'm just curious.

 

I think that the methods that show us our true self threaten the illusion that we are so attached to - the dramatic, the magical, the traditional.

At some level, that is difficult to deal with - it is/was for me.

[Smile]

It's normal for people to perceive simple methods of cultivation as mediocre or inferior. Another example would be to simply sit quietly and follow the breath.

 

Too simple for most, even though many people reached high stages of Samadhi with this practice.

[freeform]

It's so sweet to watch this.

Some people look at procurator and try to see the reason for his approach here.

Why would a professor engage in debate with school children!? Indeed!

 

The underlying structure to this is a presupposition that a professor is more important/intelligent/knowledgeable than school children - so for this to be 'true'/'real' the professor must percieve some schoolchildren to assert hir 'professorness'...

To put it another way - if there is 'big', then there must also be 'small' so that 'big' can be meaningful and 'real'... Procurator needs us like the professor needs school children and big needs small...

 

This is a mind game we all play - 'Pro' just seems to exemplify it very clearly for us... Of course he is so busy playing within the game that there is no chance of him seeing the tragic sweetness of it... How many such games do we play ourselves!? perhaps this could be an opportunity to see this 'importance' game within our own lives!?

[steve]

It's normal for people to perceive simple methods of cultivation as mediocre or inferior. Another example would be to simply sit quietly and follow the breath.

The simplicity of your posts always have such a calming effect...

 

It's so sweet to watch this.

Some people look at procurator and try to see the reason for his approach here.

Why would a professor engage in debate with school children!? Indeed!

 

The underlying structure to this is a presupposition that a professor is more important/intelligent/knowledgeable than school children - so for this to be 'true'/'real' the professor must percieve some schoolchildren to assert hir 'professorness'...

To put it another way - if there is 'big', then there must also be 'small' so that 'big' can be meaningful and 'real'... Procurator needs us like the professor needs school children and big needs small...

 

This is a mind game we all play - 'Pro' just seems to exemplify it very clearly for us... Of course he is so busy playing within the game that there is no chance of him seeing the tragic sweetness of it... How many such games do we play ourselves!? perhaps this could be an opportunity to see this 'importance' game within our own lives!?

Well put,

In the book "The Question to Life's Answers", Steven Harrison says:

"Aren't those so-called enlightened beings defined as such by those of us who choose to define ourselves as unenlightened?"

[mwight]

Asking who you are is indeed bullshit, asking what you are is more profound.

[Wayfarer64]

what is the big deal here? asking such a simple question offers a step into basic questing, in many disciplines.

no harm no foul, just not a big deal until the onion skin of self gets peeled back and a revelation is reached...

[Procurator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ROOSjmF1Uk&NR=1