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Boerewors

Some more advice needed on practice

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3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Sure, go look for confirmation bias  via people who are agreeable, then piss on people who actually know what they’re talking about, e.g. force your uninformed opinion to be true rather than listening to facts.

I was not aware you were the one true master of Daoism, the one authority of some Way that is uniform and is the same for everybody. You have deviated from the subject and reacted rather rudely and obnoxiously and I request that you look to yourself before lecturing others because your behavior has been unbecoming of one who would seek to instruct others.

 

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

See you in a few months claiming to be enlightened and spamming the forum with a lot of garbage everywhere in a few years with the self-appointed authority to call yourself a master.

I probably won't. But thank you for projecting your bias perception of everyone with a different perspective upon me. What an enlightened and delightful fellow you are.

 

6 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I swear, these self-initiated and power-seekers think they’re playing with Legos and really are mixing the periodic table, all over Reddit trying to be Jedi, are somehow coming here and beating their chests when people point out they’re drinking hydrochloric acid.

Joke's on you, I'm not on reddit. You're also pretending that everybody has access to the same resources you do. I don't have Daoist masters where I live. I guess I should sit in some corner and wait a few hundred years before one shows up to instruct me, even though he's likely not an immortal himself, unlike the many spirits in the Cosmos whom I may one day be able to learn from with enough luck.

 

Please don't force your dogma on me, I made it clear I don't adhere to your orthodoxy, and if I did I would go to China to become an ordained priest. But let's pretend you know everything, that's probably why you've reacted in such a respectful manner, right?

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Just now, Boerewors said:

I was not aware you were the one true master of Daoism, the one authority of some Way that is uniform and is the same for everybody. You have deviated from the subject and reacted rather rudely and obnoxiously and I request that you look to yourself before lecturing others because your behavior has been unbecoming of one who would seek to instruct others.

 

I probably won't. But thank you for projecting your bias perception of everyone with a different perspective upon me. What an enlightened and delightful fellow you are.

 

Joke's on you, I'm not on reddit. You're also pretending that everybody has access to the same resources you do. I don't have Daoist masters where I live. I guess I should sit in some corner and wait a few hundred years before one shows up to instruct me, even though he's likely not an immortal himself, unlike the many spirits in the Cosmos whom I may one day be able to learn from with enough luck.

 

Please don't force your dogma on me, I made it clear I don't adhere to your orthodoxy, and if I did I would go to China to become an ordained priest. But let's pretend you know everything, that's probably why you've reacted in such a respectful manner, right?


“Icarus, don’t fly too close to the sun!”

 

”Screw you! You don’t know everything! I’m flying too and you’re not an expert! Stop forcing your views on me! Are you a master? Are you the one with absolute knowledge? Don’t tell me what to do!”

 

”...you know what? Fly as high as you want. Please. Be my guest.”

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Just don't go doing your qi like this:

On 12/9/2019 at 8:24 AM, AngelsView said:

 

 

And don't walk into any lion dens, holding a raw steak, and feeling safe because you're wearing mosquito repellent. If you know what i mean..

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4 hours ago, Boerewors said:

If the day comes when I complain about qi deviation, you may point your fingers, say I told you so and laugh


I think the point is that this is the last thing we would want for you.

 

The likelihood is that you’ll be fine because you won’t practice enough to cause yourself serious harm :) Most people talk and think a lot more than they actually train - which is lucky in most cases!

 

But the advice you’re getting is not based on dogma - it’s based on hundreds of generations worth of knowledge carefully preserved and passed down to us.
 

It’s not dogma to say don’t drink washing up liquid - it’s just advice based on observation of past results.

 

Since you asked for advice on practice - this is what you’re getting. You not liking the advice is besides the point :)

Edited by freeform
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He's about as adamant that he's going to be fine just like a guy I knew who got mad when we told him to wear his helmet when riding a motorcycle, and said all his friends are fine without wearing them. Statistically speaking, the odds aren't in his favor, but then again, neither are the odds of him getting anywhere with his approach to working with qi. 

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18 hours ago, Boerewors said:

Here's an interesting video, that mentions exchange of Deities between the Hellenes and China, skip to 58 minutes - 

 

 

OMGLMFAO @ 18:00. Is this a documentary or a mocumentary??

 

14 hours ago, Boerewors said:

I don't have Daoist masters where I live.

 

There are always obstacles. Since ancient times aspiring students of Daoism have faced the exact same problem, and until quite recently generally solved it by walking all around the gigantic landmass we now call China on foot.

 

The advice and comments you've already gotten are quite sage. 

 

What are your specific goals? There is a very big difference between inner alchemy and trying to learn how to influence the weather using Daoist magic.

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17 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

OMGLMFAO @ 18:00. Is this a documentary or a mocumentary??

 

 

There are always obstacles. Since ancient times aspiring students of Daoism have faced the exact same problem, and until quite recently generally solved it by walking all around the gigantic landmass we now call China on foot.

 

The advice and comments you've already gotten are quite sage. 

 

What are your specific goals? There is a very big difference between inner alchemy and trying to learn how to influence the weather using Daoist magic.

Hi, this guy was only used as an example of somebody who is extremely passionate about a certain aspect of Daoism, which is weather magic. He was a good example I thought because he is self-taught, from the manuals of Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson.

 

I have learned from the constructive comments, like not mixing teachers due to qi deviation, so I'm currently deciding who it'll be. I do lean towards Jerry Alan Johnson, and have all of his books, most of his qigong forms can also be learned on youtube from his students. I also have Damo Mitchell's books, and his books seem more beginner friendly, but not as deep, he also has his own streaming video courses for help with form. So it'll be between those two, but am leaning towards JAJ, because I myself am very interested in the magical aspects of his work too.

 

I'm primarily interested in Neidan for the chance to become an Immortal. If I understand correctly, JAJ and Damo both work with the golden fetus, this is one school of thought regarding immortality that I'm very interested in, though I do confess I know very little about it right now, and even less about all the other kinds.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

Hi, this guy was only used as an example of somebody who is extremely passionate about a certain aspect of Daoism, which is weather magic. He was a good example I thought because he is self-taught, from the manuals of Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson.

 

I have learned from the constructive comments, like not mixing teachers due to qi deviation, so I'm currently deciding who it'll be. I do lean towards Jerry Alan Johnson, and have all of his books, most of his qigong forms can also be learned on youtube from his students. I also have Damo Mitchell's books, and his books seem more beginner friendly, but not as deep, he also has his own streaming video courses for help with form. So it'll be between those two, but am leaning towards JAJ, because I myself am very interested in the magical aspects of his work too.

 

I'm primarily interested in Neidan for the chance to become an Immortal. If I understand correctly, JAJ and Damo both work with the golden fetus, this is one school of thought regarding immortality that I'm very interested in, though I do confess I know very little about it right now, and even less about all the other kinds.

 

 

 

Even with passion, the guy doesn't know what he is talking about in and has no skill to speak of, frankly speaking.

 

One of the biggest forms of traditional training was knowing how to take feedback--not that masters beat you or insult you (some teachers do, like Pai Mei being a toned-down example), but they won't even say anything at all. They would make you do something until you had questions, dance around the answer, and let you figure it out on your own and affirm you when they saw you were on the right path, if that. One had to trust what they were saying if they said anything, and do what they taught, then look beyond that.

 

You could also learn online from several masters I know of specializing in neidan, but they have less interest than most of us do in dealing with your hostility and immaturity for what you call "dogma" that was simply practical advice for your own safety...and that's if you are even willing to pay for what is priceless.

Edited by Earl Grey
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2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

You could also learn online from several masters I know of specializing in neidan, but they have less interest than most of us do in dealing with your hostility and immaturity for what you call "dogma" that was simply practical advice for your own safety...and that's if you are even willing to pay for what is priceless.

I never claimed to be perfectly mature or pleasant, though I have tried, maybe not successfully, to be thus regardless of your previous attempts to belittle my chosen path.

 

Teachers like who then? And from my understanding there are different types of Neidan, some I've never heard of, some becoming Immortal, others kind of like Buddhist stuff in ceasing to exist. I'm interested in the Immortal one, and if you have any advice regarding it, I would be very happy if you would share it with me, and will investigate whether what they charge will be worth it for me.

 

The thing is though, since I'm only starting out with Daoist stuff beyond Zhan Zhuang, should I really be getting into Neidan this soon?

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18 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

Hi, this guy was only used as an example of somebody who is extremely passionate about a certain aspect of Daoism, which is weather magic. He was a good example I thought because he is self-taught, from the manuals of Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson.

 

Well, I struggle to believe that he's not fooling himself and credulous viewers on YouTube, but who knows. Hopefully he does not get struck by lightning pointing that metal sword at the sky during thunderstorms. Or catch one hell of a cold getting soaked to the bone in his Raiden costume like that.

 

Quote

I'm primarily interested in Neidan for the chance to become an Immortal. If I understand correctly, JAJ and Damo both work with the golden fetus, this is one school of thought regarding immortality that I'm very interested in, though I do confess I know very little about it right now, and even less about all the other kinds.

 

I see. If you have such a lofty goal it is generally advised to start with small steps. Cultivate lots and lots of yinde/陰德; learn to diminish and diminish some more your passions and desires; turn your goal into a goalless goal; be patient; be yet more patient; study widely; visit numerous teachers but beware becoming infatuated or getting drawn into the hidden dark sides of those who are not what they seem (waiting at least three years before considering formal initiation is common, ancient advice); be circumspect and keep all of these things at an arm's distance; remember that progress is made over years and decades, not weeks and months; forget yourself; know when to stop; model your speaking-to-listening ratio upon your mouth-to-ear ratio; cultivate more yinde. I know no more than that, can offer little more than advice to be cautious and beware of seeming "eureka" moments, very often they're very deceptive. 

Edited by Walker
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3 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

The thing is though, since I'm only starting out with Daoist stuff beyond Zhan Zhuang, should I really be getting into Neidan this soon?

 

Almost certainly not.

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1 minute ago, Walker said:

 

Well, I struggle to believe that he's not fooling himself and credulous viewers on YouTube, but who knows. Hopefully he does not get struck by lightning pointing that metal sword at the sky during thunderstorms. Or catch one hell of a cold getting soaked to the bone in his Raiden costume like that.

 

 

I see. If you have such a lofty goal it is generally advised to start with small steps. Cultivate lots and lots of yinde/陰德; learn to diminish and diminish some more your passions and desires; turn your goal into a goalless goal; be patient; be yet more patient; study widely; visit numerous teachers but beware becoming infatuated or getting drawn into the hidden dark sides of those who are not what they seem (waiting at least three years before considering formal initiation is common, ancient advice); be circumspect and keep all of these things at an arm's distance; remember that progress is made over years and decades, not weeks and months; forget yourself; know when to stop; model your speaking-to-listening ration upon your mouth-to-ear ratio; cultivate more yinde. I know no more than that, can offer little more than advice to be cautious and beware of seeming "eureka" moments, very often they're very deceptive. 

I thank you for your advice, and I do intend to gradually accomplish my goals over three or four decades of dedicated practice. I will be cautious of the eureka moments as you have advised, and will try to be cautious in my endeavors. I thank you for your kind advice.

 

I have one question though, what is yinde?

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Just now, Boerewors said:

regardless of your previous attempts to belittle my chosen path

 

There was no belittling; there was merely reciprocity for your stubborn insistence that someone was trying to control you or exert power and dogma and the personal insults you threw.

 

2 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

I would be very happy if you would share it with me, and will investigate whether what they charge will be worth it for me.

 

Begin with a sincere apology first and perhaps you may have hope yet. Otherwise, as their gatekeeper student for when they retire, no amount of money offered (even six figures) was acceptable to them when their role was to pass on knowledge and guide people to acquire skill, not to babysit or be insulted. 

 

To put it this way, any introduction isn't as simple as giving you their contact information--they ignore people without being screened. And oftentimes, at their level, a gift is expected even for an introduction, because they've seen it all and aren't interested in wasting their time.

 

6 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

The thing is though, since I'm only starting out with Daoist stuff beyond Zhan Zhuang, should I really be getting into Neidan this soon?

 

Absolutely not. They may show you some internal techniques, but you won't get any neidan immediately without prior discernment of your readiness. Someone wanting to control the weather and starting to learn that will most certainly get no technique related to that.

 

Listen to your seniors on this forum and seek to understand before mouthing off if you truly want to make this a lifelong practice, especially Walker, who will take over at this point because he is far more patient than I.

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3 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

I thank you for your advice, and I do intend to gradually accomplish my goals over three or four decades of dedicated practice. I will be cautious of the eureka moments as you have advised, and will try to be cautious in my endeavors. I thank you for your kind advice.

 

You're welcome.

 

3 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

I have one question though, what is yinde?

 

Go find out :)

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11 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

There was no belittling; there was merely reciprocity for your stubborn insistence that someone was trying to control you or exert power and dogma and the personal insults you threw.

 

 

Begin with a sincere apology first and perhaps you may have hope yet. Otherwise, as their gatekeeper student for when they retire, no amount of money offered (even six figures) was acceptable to them when their role was to pass on knowledge and guide people to acquire skill, not to babysit or be insulted. 

 

To put it this way, any introduction isn't as simple as giving you their contact information--they ignore people without being screened. And oftentimes, at their level, a gift is expected even for an introduction, because they've seen it all and aren't interested in wasting their time.

 

 

Absolutely not. They may show you some internal techniques, but you won't get any neidan immediately without prior discernment of your readiness. Someone wanting to control the weather and starting to learn that will most certainly get no technique related to that.

 

Listen to your seniors on this forum and seek to understand before mouthing off if you truly want to make this a lifelong practice, especially Walker, who will take over at this point because he is far more patient than I.

I have nothing to apologize for, nor am I desperate enough to beg anyone for anything. I accept the gracious advice from those who are more well-tempered and articulate than yourself without problem, so the problem in my opinion lies with your attitude and not mine.

 

I will henceforth try to avoid as much interaction with you as possible, because you have proven to be a crude, impolite, and obnoxious fellow. Have a pleasant day.

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9 hours ago, Boerewors said:

I have nothing to apologize for, nor am I desperate enough to beg anyone for anything. I accept the gracious advice from those who are more well-tempered and articulate than yourself without problem, so the problem in my opinion lies with your attitude and not mine.

 

I will henceforth try to avoid as much interaction with you as possible, because you have proven to be a crude, impolite, and obnoxious fellow. Have a pleasant day.

 

"True words are not beautiful,

beautiful words are not true.

Those who argue stubbornly are not right,

and those who are right don't need to argue." 

 

No interaction with you is already a gift for me, for having nothing to do with your self-entitlement and defensiveness means no responsibility for your foolishness and inevitable harm you are doing to yourself at worst or waste of time at best, little boor.

Edited by Earl Grey

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19 hours ago, Earl Grey said:


Whatever.
 

You’ve been warned by several of us who’ve done this for years.

 

If you’re so set on harming your body and developing psychoses as a self-initiate like we’ve seen so many of in this forum over the years, knock yourself out.

 

Well, you can't stop someone's curiosity. Thankfully I pulled myself out of that hole. My postes here 7 or so years ago should actually be wiped from the forum imo haha

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55 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

Well, you can't stop someone's curiosity. Thankfully I pulled myself out of that hole. My postes here 7 or so years ago should actually be wiped from the forum imo haha


That is why I have always had respect for you, Rara, because of your humility and openness.

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It’s interesting to me seeing two different perspectives colliding in this thread.

 

What interests me is the attitude and the mental qualities that are built by different traditions and the different approaches to training.

 

I’ve always found that people into magick tend to display an inflated sense of self (this is including myself, when I explored this tradition)... There is a sense of feeling rather smart for seeing behind ‘the veil’ and realising the possibilities open to you...

 

The Daoist mental quality is very different (I’m talking about one developed over years training with a legitimate teacher - not self-directed study, which tends to result in the same attitudes as formed by getting into Magick)... It’s a combination of humility, strength and humour. Humility is the key to getting anywhere in the spiritual traditions (particularly Daoist) - and it’s substantially lacking in most people that want to get into spirituality...

 

When someone says they’re interested in becoming an immortal after they’ve read a book on Daoism - what’s missing is the sense of the enormity of the task...

 

Amazing things are possible - of course.


But think of it this way...

 

You've just read a book about the stock market and you decide - “I want to amass more wealth than Warren Buffet!”...

 

(bearing in mind, this guy makes around $35 million a day)

 

“...but I want to do it without any mentor - I only want to work 20hrs a week and I’m only interested in trading gold commodities - coz that sounds cool to me - Now give me advice on how to do it”...

 

How does that sound? Naive? Self entitled? 
 

Imagine if someone with experience (and some patience) then suggested “oh you should go and be an intern at a small investment fund, see how they work and take it from there”...

 

”I’m not interested in being an intern. I already read books. I have friends that have investments - I just want the information on how to get bigger than Warren Buffet - without all stuff that doesn’t interest me.”

 

How does that look? If you were an experienced investor, would you be interested in helping this person out?

 

Earl Grey mentioned how authentic teachers work. The most highly achieved teachers I’ve come across are even harsher than that to be honest...
 

Before discussing anything, you’ll be tested. They might put you in a position and tell you to stand and relax... or they might tell you to sit and quieten your mind... then they’ll leave you there. Most people stop their practice after 30 minutes... some manage an hr or two...

 

I’ve been in this situation - and 5 hrs later, my body in unbelievable pain and a large puddle of my sweat on the ground - I was told to come back the next day for a chat. And this wasn’t passing the test - this was an opportunity to sit the real test :D

 

Self entitlement precludes you from any real training. Yes some teachers will train you - they’re either just interested in your money or they’re waiting to see if you drop the act before teaching you anything genuine...

 

Consider this as some more advice :) 

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40 minutes ago, freeform said:

It’s interesting to me seeing two different perspectives colliding in this thread.

 

What interests me is the attitude and the mental qualities that are built by different traditions and the different approaches to training.

 

I’ve always found that people into magick tend to display an inflated sense of self (this is including myself, when I explored this tradition)... There is a sense of feeling rather smart for seeing behind ‘the veil’ and realising the possibilities open to you...

 

The Daoist mental quality is very different (I’m talking about one developed over years training with a legitimate teacher - not self-directed study, which tends to result in the same attitudes as formed by getting into Magick)... It’s a combination of humility, strength and humour. Humility is the key to getting anywhere in the spiritual traditions (particularly Daoist) - and it’s substantially lacking in most people that want to get into spirituality...

 

When someone says they’re interested in becoming an immortal after they’ve read a book on Daoism - what’s missing is the sense of the enormity of the task...

 

Amazing things are possible - of course.


But think of it this way...

 

You've just read a book about the stock market and you decide - “I want to amass more wealth than Warren Buffet!”...

 

(bearing in mind, this guy makes around $35 million a day)

 

“...but I want to do it without any mentor - I only want to work 20hrs a week and I’m only interested in trading gold commodities - coz that sounds cool to me - Now give me advice on how to do it”...

 

How does that sound? Naive? Self entitled? 
 

Imagine if someone with experience (and some patience) then suggested “oh you should go and be an intern at a small investment fund, see how they work and take it from there”...

 

”I’m not interested in being an intern. I already read books. I have friends that have investments - I just want the information on how to get bigger than Warren Buffet - without all stuff that doesn’t interest me.”

 

How does that look? If you were an experienced investor, would you be interested in helping this person out?

 

Earl Grey mentioned how authentic teachers work. The most highly achieved teachers I’ve come across are even harsher than that to be honest...
 

Before discussing anything, you’ll be tested. They might put you in a position and tell you to stand and relax... or they might tell you to sit and quieten your mind... then they’ll leave you there. Most people stop their practice after 30 minutes... some manage an hr or two...

 

I’ve been in this situation - and 5 hrs later, my body in unbelievable pain and a large puddle of my sweat on the ground - I was told to come back the next day for a chat. And this wasn’t passing the test - this was an opportunity to sit the real test :D

 

Self entitlement precludes you from any real training. Yes some teachers will train you - they’re either just interested in your money or they’re waiting to see if you drop the act before teaching you anything genuine...

 

Consider this as some more advice :) 


Shixiong freeform, better than anything I could possibly say.

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8 hours ago, Walker said:

 

I see. If you have such a lofty goal it is generally advised to start with small steps. Cultivate lots and lots of yinde/陰德; learn to diminish and diminish some more your passions and desires; turn your goal into a goalless goal; be patient; be yet more patient; study widely; visit numerous teachers but beware becoming infatuated or getting drawn into the hidden dark sides of those who are not what they seem (waiting at least three years before considering formal initiation is common, ancient advice); be circumspect and keep all of these things at an arm's distance; remember that progress is made over years and decades, not weeks and months; forget yourself; know when to stop; model your speaking-to-listening ratio upon your mouth-to-ear ratio; cultivate more yinde. I know no more than that, can offer little more than advice to be cautious and beware of seeming "eureka" moments, very often they're very deceptive. 

 

Hear that bell?  That`s the ring of truth.

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2 hours ago, freeform said:

When someone says they’re interested in becoming an immortal after they’ve read a book on Daoism - what’s missing is the sense of the enormity of the task...

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

How does that sound? Naive? Self entitled? 

8 hours ago, Boerewors said:

I thank you for your advice, and I do intend to gradually accomplish my goals over three or four decades of dedicated practice. I will be cautious of the eureka moments as you have advised, and will try to be cautious in my endeavors. I thank you for your kind advice.

I guess the last quote is an example of me being naive and self-entitled huh? Or is it simply that you neglected to read anything I typed, and resorted to jumping to the conclusion that I must be some arrogant, self-entitled fool, who thinks I'll be an immortal in a couple of days, despite the fact that I mentioned that I intend to accomplish it in a number of decades. Maybe you got offended because your friend was called out for his rude and repugnant behavior, but guess what, that's not my problem.

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Earl Grey mentioned how authentic teachers work. The most highly achieved teachers I’ve come across are even harsher than that to be honest...

If his attitude is a result of his work under his current master, I suppose it's a negative reflection upon his master's ability to proper instill manners, which in turn reflects badly upon his master. Not an avenue worth investigating in my opinion.

 

I'm  well aware of how obedient and orthodox most Daoists are, and also how arrogant. I guess you probably think immortality is only achievable through Daoist methods, well it's not. I'm interested in approaching it from the Hermetic perspective as well as Daoism, I could approach it from a Shamanistic, Hindu, Buddhist, or Heathen esoteric perspective as well. Nobody was being rude to you initially, your friend was rude and was called out on it, now you're upset too, judging by the fact that you've neglected to properly read much of anything I typed.

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Self entitlement precludes you from any real training. Yes some teachers will train you - they’re either just interested in your money or they’re waiting to see if you drop the act before teaching you anything genuine...

I guess that precludes you and Earl Grey since you're both lacking in both manners and grace. Carry on.

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

When someone says they’re interested in becoming an immortal after they’ve read a book on Daoism - what’s missing is the sense of the enormity of the task...

And just so you know, I've already mentioned other avenues, so it didn't just pop into my head once I read a book on Daoism. Get over yourself.

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19 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Hear that bell?  That`s the ring of truth.

It's easy to see who the big mouths are as opposed to the real journeymen, I guess I can be grateful for that. I do appreciate his advice.

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On 12/11/2019 at 7:50 AM, Boerewors said:

This is the type of thing I'm into, so I will be mixing currents a great deal. I understand why people would advise otherwise, and that it is dangerous. But to me it is essential to create my own way mixing what I deem necessary as time goes on.
 

 

It actually isn't a problem to mix currents, AFTER you have reached a level of internal skill/accomplishment. My understanding is that you will know which currents are compatible and which aren't.

 

One of my Masters said to me very seriously, 'Dedicate yourself to me, then once you reach a certain level feel free to train with whoever you want.'

 

The reason he said not to mix and match was that the different intentions of practice can be counter productive with each other, waste time, and confuse your energy body and development. At best you waste time, at worse you develop in painful ways or cause health issues.

 

Best of luck,

John

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