Lataif

Sexual Jing: Is It Really Limited (?)

Recommended Posts

I don't know why people bother differentiating so much about the postheaven sanbao, when its all the same. An old bastard drains your chi, your chi and shen will go down. 

 

You also posted this in Daoist discussion. Postnatal energy is more about TCM than Lao Tzes et all DAOism. Body vs Spirit /psyche. 

 

As for the first point, 1), I think what Hindus call 7 Dhatu is also a form of energy. Whereby the bones are the physical body. And the flesh is dense energy as post sanbao is 'subtle' energy. You circulate the 7 tissues by working out, etc. just as you do with energy. An astral entity doesnt need to workout its astral body but surely needs to somehow circulate its energy which is also somewhat equivalent to keeping the mind [=perception IMO] active and sharp trained/reflexed. 

 

Some alchemists / lower immortals obtain great longevity with special herbs and potions. Not with sanbao. So <- here<- we can pretty much see that the subtle merely influences the dense. Sort of like merely 'communicates' with it.

 

- You also have to remember where you hear ANY rumours [....what is the difference between 'knowledge', 'wisdom' and 'rumour' ? all must be verified by You anyway]. "traditional Qiqong' well this properly refers to specific sample of the martial arts community from modern times. This sample has really poor cultivation over all. They also spread false rumours like preheaven cannot be cultivated or increased yet its always decreasing....which mathematically is ... *cute*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On August 17, 2019 at 9:43 AM, Lataif said:

Please:

 

(1) It doesn't seem an exaggeration to me to say that traditional Qigong is obsessed 

with the idea that there is a limited amount of sexual JIng and that it must therefore

be used sparingly.

 

(2) But what's the evidence for this (?)

 

(3) It's demonstrable in physiological terms that the body replaces any used JIng.

 

(4) In fact, it probably increases both the supply AND the capacity to replenish

Jing based on the usage rate.

 

(5) This seems to me a case of traditional teaching either not understanding that

process . . . or having some other agenda to promote.

 

 

 

 

Following in your line of reasoning:

 

1. The Nature of Qi gong, Intention in Practice and the Essence of Jing.

    

    1A. Qi Gong. Qi gong is the facilitation of energetics to affect the wellbeing of the system. Most forms encompass a great variety of movements aimed at wellness- redirecting energy from all directions in the macrocosm to dynamically merge and facilitate the microcosmic conditions within an individual. These movements address not only organs and meridians, but also infinite conditions in an individual even beyond the energetics. 

 

    1B. Intention. If one is teaching or practicing Taoist cultivation from any form of obsession, then this is counter to the principles of method. I would examine in yourself what makes you think an entire system of holistic health and wisdom that has potential to heal any ill condition and tonify or cleanse the body, is somehow exclusively and myopically focused on only one essence, one organ, one source and thus is so limited in it’s scope and methods- because that is what you are (unknowingly) suggesting by saying this.

    

    1C. Jing. It is unfortunate that anyone would perceive such a pure and powerful primordial essence capable of creating and sustaining life as the petty object of the genitals and sex.  Jing is not sexual. People through their conditioning make things ‘sexual’; they ‘sexualize’. Though it is true that rejuvenation and consciousness can to be found through forms of intimate merging (eg. dual cultivation), Consciousness itself is not sex and neither are the purities of conscious essence. So jing is not ‘sexual jing’, it is the energy of the pre-heavens that imbue our life with generative force. It can occur through sex, but it is not sex itself. And in fact, jing is more simply gathered and stored without sexual practices, the methods of which can involve many risks when improperly conducted. (Side note: dual cultivation done from a state of sexual desire is one done in ignorance and from misperception of the intended practice.)

 

 

 

2. Conservation and the Lack Thereof.

    

    The Taoist principles of illness, health, and consciousness are rooted in the wisdoms of conservation- not just of jing, but also of qi and shen. That is, one should not waste what is essential in themselves. This forum is innundated with males driven by sexual ideations and so they fixate on a very limited recognition of jing, but this is largely a crude concern rooted in one’s own baseness and it limits the true potential prosperity. So much of these desires, fears and their resulting actions are misguided at a deep level by the orientation of one’s perception, maturity and ignorant intention. Rather than come to the depths of their foolery, they insist on it and rush to control what they are losing rather than simply abstain from what produces that loss in the first place. Desire leads to obscurity of essence, spirit and energy, and this in turn leads to death and cyclical rebirthing. In the common person- especially over the course of their lifetime, their very essence into form is increasingly deluded by such acquired consciousnesses (xi shen) to the degree that it forms turbidity, stagnation and ultimately results in waste of the Three Treasures: consciousness (shen), energy (qi), and generative force (jing). This waste is integral to why people age as they do. A person who feeds the Three Corpses (Sanshi 三尸: aka Three Worms, Three Demons) through the harmful wasting of their Three Treasures debilitates themself and dies just a little sooner in each moment. What are the Three Corpses? Thinking, emotionality and baseness. What are most people's desires and lives run by? Ideas, emotions, and baseness: people literally create their own demons.

 

    Does the process of expenditure and wasting need evidence when you look around at the human condition? If you throw it away you lose it. It’s really that simple. Can you continually re-acquire the things that you lose so readily and steadily?  If you really care for it to begin with- why do you throw it away so continuously? If it could be recovered, would you know how to do so effectively? When does the process of lose and expenditure to regain that loss become futile? People say they fear death, yet they indulge desire to the point of their own demise repeatedly over lifetimes and it is not just through sexual desire exclusively. All forms of desire drive the Three Demons to rob the spiritual Treasures. To live in this manner, conscious or not, is a choice. 

 

    What choice are you making in how to conduct each moment of your life?

 

 

 

 

3&4. Jing as Essence, Relationship of Quantities, Rejuvenation

    

    3&4A. Essences and Substances. Jing isn’t a physiological term. When jing qi coalesces into form it becomes the substance of the semen and the egg, but even then jing is still the essence and those are technically the bodily fluids: those are the masses, this is the essence. They are inter-related but they are not the same. You can expend jing without ejaculating, and plenty do each day through innumerable means, because they don’t recognize the true value of it in themselves. We are not looking at the Western science of what your body’s refractory resources do or don’t do. We are looking at an alchemical process of creative force in the system before it even enters the body and as it continues to transmute through fields of form into any manner of vital condition from seed, to body, to energy, to consciousness and much more. 

    

    3 &4B. Mis-measurements. Sure, the physiology of the gross body can grab more generative essence (jing) and turn it into more bodily fluid (semen/egg) and so you have more semen to expell. It doesn’t mean you have more jing: it means you have used more essence and converted it into more mass (a process which requires tremendous sacred energy), so now you have more mass (semen) and less essence (jing).

    

    3&4C. Potential Replenishment. And yes, jing can actually be replenished but not by wasting it through converting it to fluid and throwing it away, then trying to grab more so you can lose it again. There are actually many ways to absorb, increase, fortify and rejuvenate jing. But in most cases, the ordinary person is- for various reasons, largely incapable of effectively replenishing essence to greater sufficiency and instead more expedient in their unconsciousness to expend it through taxing the adrenals (adrenals are the glands of the kidneys and the kidneys are the portal of the jing) daily by doing such things like ingesting stimulants such as coffee, sexualizing each other, overworking, inordinately forcing existence, willfully engaging in unnecessary activity, etc.,. All these efforts use jing… and they didn’t even all require sex!

 

    When I look around me at what type of person has the highest concentration of jing in their system, it isn’t some big virile looking man, or some shapely woman… do you know who it is?  It is babies. Babies are made almost entirely of jing at birth. Does that appear like sex to you? Far from it.

 

 

 

5. Understanding and Wisdom.

    

    Maybe it is not the teaching that is erroneous but the student who misunderstands the essence in the lesson.

 

Edited by Small Fur
  • Like 7
  • Thanks 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, salaam123 said:

is semen retention harmful? By that I mean that when you contract the perineum muscle in a way that you don't ejaculate.

 

Yes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


worth a read. Though there’s a lot all over the forum. If you do an advanced search and search by author (if you want specific members views) and search for something like ‘jing’ or ‘sex’ - you’ll find lots of stuff.

 

42 minutes ago, salaam123 said:


Will you die from ejaculating into your bladder? (which is what the chia style contraction does) - no. But there are many other issues, discussed at length in this and many other threads.

 

Long term retention is dangerous unless you have deep experience in the internal arts and a very clear understanding of what you’re doing. (If your understanding is from Chia or derivatives of his work, then you do not have clear understanding unfortunately).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, salaam123 said:

Thanks! What I meant was just contracting the perineum muscle, I didn't mean pressing the perineum with fingers. Do you mean both? Does the semen still go to the bladder?

 

Let's keep it simple. If your pee-pee's piping is blocked, regardless of how, then the oozing male essence will remain inside and flow into the nearest available drain hole, i.e. the bladder. I don't think the testes would accept any refunds either for what they were happy to do away with. :rolleyes:

 

Pipedream.png

Edited by virtue
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, salaam123 said:

Thanks! What I meant was just contracting the perineum muscle, I didn't mean pressing the perineum with fingers. Do you mean both? Does the semen still go to the bladder?

See it like this, the mind takes damage when we build up an impulse and then inhibit it. 

 

That is a major component in the theory that the neuropsychological thread Taomeow started is based on, prediction theory and active inference. 

 

Any one might interpret behavioural inhibition as "power" in the beginning, but (relevant to the sexual context) its a fuckup in the end. 

 

Point being, one doesn't have to go to a holistic asian system to get the idea that semen retention is a doubtful practice, there are modern neuropsychological theories that support that idea as well. 

 

Or, just don't.... 

Edited by Cleansox
Added stuff
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, salaam123 said:

Strangely, I feel more drained after ejaculation than retaining, even though it could be thought, that it does not matter since the semen goes to waste (to the bladder with retaining) anyway. 

 

To retain, or not to retain, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of time,
The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's Contumely,
The pangs of dispised Love, the Law’s delay,
The insolence of Office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,
When he himself might his Quietus make
With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of Resolution
Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of Thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment,
With this regard their Currents turn awry,
And lose the name of Action. Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia? Nymph, in thy Orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/07/2021 at 11:59 AM, salaam123 said:

 

I'll add that of course chi/jing is lost, but maybe some is conserved in retaining.


if you see seminal fluid as jing, then you’re already lost.
 

Things are a lot more nuanced. There are plenty of threads that go into more depth.

 

There’s no point to continue this discussion along your line of questioning, because you’ve got it fundamentally wrong. It’s not your fault, of course - there’s so much junk information that teaches this stuff incorrectly.
 

But if you’re not willing to dive in and get a more nuanced understanding of what jing really means, then further discussion just becomes impossible.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 17.7.2021 at 11:01 PM, salaam123 said:

 

Maybe the chi/jing isn't lost in retaining but the minerals and vitamins that are in the semen go to waste.

 

 

If you practice sitting and/or standing with a light attention on your abdomen on a daily basis your jing will become more and more still. This makes your urge for sex smaller and then willful retention is NOT necessary anymore because it happens automatically, because your sex drive is lower. 

Just my experience. 

Ok...if you are looking for nice women every day, that won't work. 

So, if you really want to progress, best in my opinion is stilling the jing through practice and not having sex for a time...

As I said, just my personal experience.

 

Best wishes 

 

Edited by Feng69
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

freeform: It's ok not to continue. I'll do some further reading. If someone else wants to comment to my posts ,however, feel free to do so.

 

Feng69: Good advice, do you have any specific methods in mind? I have been trying to be selibate for a long time now with varying levels of success.

Edited by salaam123

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, salaam123 said:

 

 

Feng69: Good advice, do you have any specific methods in mind? I have been trying to be selibate for a long time now with varying levels of success.

 

Well, I can only talk from my personal experience. 

Having no sex at all works for me at best in times of 

1. having no relationship to a woman (or at least a woman who understands my practice/cultivation)

2. Practicing a minimum of two better three hours or more a day (standing, sitting, Qigong, Taiji). I know that's quite hard when working 40 hours the week but for me it's possible because my circumstances "allow" it most of the time. 

3. Not going to places where my sences are feeded with sexual stimulating stuff

4. Havung not too much stressful situations in daily life (the less the better).

5. Drinking not much, better no alcohol at all during that time

6. Healthy amount of sleep (for me best is 6 - 7 hours)

7. And of course the will that cultivation is a very important part of my life. 

 

I know this list could be added with many more points but that's what works for me. And possibly the best situation would be, to have holiday for some weeks/months in that intensive times of practice...but not many persons are in the position, having so much holiday. 

 

Best wishes

(oh I'm so sorry for my English, hope you understand)

Edited by Feng69
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Some thoughts  on  jing , which is so important  that  ambiguous ideas about it can only lead us to mistakes in practice :

 

Origin :  Jing is the life energy that  our parents drew from outside emptiness when they had sex ; although their bodies'  health do  affect that dose of life energy ,  for example , a healthy father/mother always give birth to a healthy baby who might live a longer life , that dose of incoming life energy is limited,   and as we all know  it  is something limited to  a  130-year  duration for humans.   Consider life energy abounds  everywhere  and is  what   Dao  mainly expresses itself  in this universe  ,   it is a pity that most people live so short a life on this planet .

 

 

Forms and Expression :  Originally that life energy  is a trinity of jing , qi and shen , not split . Anyone who carefully studies a baby of several months old can catch what it means . It is its later growth and after puberty that it splits into three parts , yet still closely linked .

Our body can be viewed as a hierarchy of  yin (jing ) and yang( qi ) :  We can say that top of our body is yang, lower part is  yin ;  back  as yang and  the front part as yin ;  material part as yin and qi that motivates it as yang ..

 

Furthermore , from the whole up to the organ level, every organ has its  yin (liquid/material  )  and yang (qi) ;  so  when treating a deficiency  of kidney ,for example,  we have to identify what  type, yin or yang-typed  of  it ,  so as to apply the medical formula . Of course,  over this yin/yang combination , every organ has its shen , which is  why organ transplantation can transfer original donor's  character  to other people .

 

Qi and shen are always invisible , but jing can be invisible and visible ; in fact, jing's changing forms confuse people ; of course, whenever it is materialized and seen ,  you no  longer can  use it .  In sex intercourse,  the jing released is not solely from the kidney , but all  organs' , this is  why male get a whole body tiredness after sex.

 

 

Edited by exorcist_1699
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites