welkin

Safety and Efficiency of the Daoist Path

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If someone else is sincerely interested in the safety and efficiency factors of the Daoist path, and they indicate that - then I’m more than happy to say more.

 

@freeform

 

I'm interested in the safety and efficiency factors of the Daoist path. What if we take the middle ground of doing alone style practice (yes i know everyone says get a master). Unfortunately a lot of people and possibly me included (not sure yet), prefer to practice on our own. So of course even if it is recommended with a master, what sort of safety measures and efficiency paths can we take? It'd be worse for that knowledge not to be spread around knowing that people are going to take a riskier path anyways.

 

For example, let's say the goal is energy or paranormal work such as healing, astral projection, telekinsesis, etc. What are the prerequsities one should have or take?

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Sure ok. I won’t lecture you about needing to find teachers. I also began my journey adamant that I don’t need or want a teacher - and I did manage to make some progress without. So yes it’s possible. (But then I found lots of teachers 😄)

 

If your aim in the internal arts is beyond the basic de-stress and relax thing, then you need to start with reasonably good health - both physical and mental... If these are not generally fine, then you need to fix them - the internal arts at this level won’t heal you in that way...

 

Once your health is reasonably fine, the main premise is don’t trust your mind :)

 

As you probably know, we need to work with your Qi and the channels of the body. But the way we get to them is through focus on the body first - you don't start out trying to feel your your Qi or direct it with your mind.

 

This mental control of Qi creates all the dangers - Qi reversals, heat in the head, poison fire tainting heart, steaming bones etc etc... One of my teachers in Malaysia specialised in treating people with Qigong sickness - it’s quite common when not following a proper method.

 

The first step is to prepare your body... this means 1) loosen tension, 2) increase flexibility, 3) build strength... 

 

This involves stretching and mobility exercises and a lot of bodyweight strength training - focusing particularly on legs and core - nothing extreme like muscle ups or heavy weights though, as this will slow your progress in Qigong.

 

The second step (and this is generally done concurrently) is to start to get into your ‘inner body’... This is basically accessing the various tissues that we’re not used to using - the little stabilising muscles, the deep core muscles, the sinews and tendons and the fascia matrix. You do this by standing (a lot) and repeating the foundational Qi Gong movements of your system (a lot)... And developing Sung (active release) and Ting (inner listening).

 

At first you’ll get hints that there’s something more than the basic muscles we all know about - you’ll feel aches and pains in places you’ve never felt before, you’ll feel weird stretchy connections between parts of your body that you’ve never felt before etc.

 

It takes a long time (3 to 5 years), but eventually your entire body will feel connected. It feels like your insides are all rubbery and connected in stretched way - a slight change in pressure of your foot will send your arms up... a slight stretch in your palm will be felt throughout your body. It feels like wearing one of those wetsuits... but interweaved through your muscles under your skin.

 

When you have this sort of body, you’ll get into your standing posture and it will feel like sitting into a nice stretchy hammock or trampoline - quite comfortable... When you do your moving forms, it’s not the ordinary muscles that move you, but these stretchy connections. Often it feels as if the movements are happening by themselves.

 

Ever do this thing as a kid - where you stand with your arms by your sides and your friend holds them there as you try to push out... then your friend suddenly lets go, and your arms just lift and float up by themselves... all your Qigong movements will start to feel like that.

 

(This is just a stage, you actually need to relax and drop more weight into this floating - then things start getting painful :) - but that’s some way off!)

 

This is ‘the Qigong body’... this is the foundation you need to move on to anything else.

 

But why?

 

Your standing and moving practices will have connected your body in a very particular way. The Qi of your body run through these tissues. It means that you’ve built the physical riverbed of your channels for the Qi to move through in a particular way. Now you don’t need to direct Qi with your mind - because its path and direction is already physically built into your body... it will naturally flow where it needs to without any mental effort. Remember - we can’t trust the mind :)

 

Another aspect... if you think of an old style lightbulb, the light is created by running electricity through a metal filament... when you build this body, you’re actually building thicker, denser filaments through your body - meaning you can transmit a far greater current. If the filament is too thin or the current too strong - what happens? The filament pops and the light goes out :)

 

As well as this you’ll need to build your Dantien (this starts concurrently to building the body)... this creates the vessel or container for generating, holding and moving very strong currents of Qi.

 

And that’s basically the foundation - although obviously there’s a lot more - like harmonising your organs, clearing out blockages, sinking Qi etc etc.

 

To summarise - 1) open and strengthen your body physically 2) find your ‘internal body’ 3) build a fully connected, elastic Qigong body 4) build a Dantien.

 

So bearing in mind that this is missing a ton of stuff, and written very crudely... but I hope it helps to explain what authentic Qigong does to set up the foundations for further development like actually going through the Jing-Qi-Shen conversion process and so on.

 

Happy to answer questions.

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It's not that crude.  I experienced, resonated, and agreed with every single thing you wrote. Thank you for all that and confirming all of this. Maybe some things missing are like to and not to dos.

 

Though i feel like i was able to do everything you mentioned, I will say that i'm fairly undisciplined as far as the many practices in regards to specifics. i will do a mix of running, sitting meditation 1-1.5 hr/day, slight yoga stretching 20 min/day, mace exercises, kettebell swings, walking breathing posture meditation min/day.

 

 

 

Questions:
I think this is going to help a lot of people including myself, what would you recommend for these? - 1) open and strengthen your body physically 2) find your ‘internal body’ 3) build a fully connected, elastic Qigong body 4) build a Dantien.

 

What are the daily (optimal) routines you would advise?

 

 

so i understood everything up until this part:

Quote

And that’s basically the foundation - although obviously there’s a lot more - like harmonising your organs, clearing out blockages, sinking Qi etc etc.

 

Could you explain the different secondary advised requirements for foundation? And maybe what each are or how to do them? I am okay with researching too, so no worries on explanation if too long. But maybe efficiency with these?

 

Could you say what is/are the sign(s) that tell if one is at a strong developmental point to begin moving on onto further development?

 

What would be the next further development?

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7 hours ago, welkin said:

 

@freeform

 

I'm interested in the safety and efficiency factors of the Daoist path. What if we take the middle ground of doing alone style practice (yes i know everyone says get a master). Unfortunately a lot of people and possibly me included (not sure yet), prefer to practice on our own. So of course even if it is recommended with a master, what sort of safety measures and efficiency paths can we take? It'd be worse for that knowledge not to be spread around knowing that people are going to take a riskier path anyways.

 

For example, let's say the goal is energy or paranormal work such as healing, astral projection, telekinsesis, etc. What are the prerequsities one should have or take?

 

Without sounding judgmental, based on the volume of threads you've started, you seem a bit confused..on one hand you are asking about basic safety, and on the next about advanced practices...so ill make a suggestion to you

 

If you want to stick to that pathway as listed above, by all means do....but do not expect to be doing any "serious" energy work in the immediate future

 

If you want to "experience things" at an accelerated rate, which is much more efficient in a safe fashion from a Daoist perspective...let me suggest the following.

 

#1 Stretch and do seated stillness meditation everyday

#2 Buy Wang Liping's new book, read it and study it

#3 Attend his next seminar in chosen location....in Europe the total is around 4k for 10 days

 

He is traditional, and holds lineage to a dragon gate sect, but you will not be subjected to years of training as a prerequisite, and will most like feel strong qi sensations among other things...some have experienced perception of the "ling" strong astral and dream experiences etc etc.

 

He is the only eastern "Master" I would trust without further investigation alongside John Chang, who is inaccessible and possibly deceased, and I've also seen numerous positive reviews from Michael Lomax, and from Kunlun by Max Christensen, so maybe look there too. Im not saying they are the only good masters...not by a long shot....but perhaps the only ones I  personally know of who's reputations are strong enough not to warrant too much skepticism (Jenny Lamb too perhaps ). There's probably teachers lurking here behind the scenes too

 

If it is astral projection and paranormal you are after, then Qigong is most certainly a long way away from it...SOTG is the person to talk to to for all things "paranormal"...but be warned it's left hand path stuff intertwined with magick...and quite powerful....I had a my first serious astral experience after just watching a video he put up (I didn't see the warning he'd posted)....and let me be very clear... there was no denying what I experienced that time

 

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11 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

Without sounding judgmental, based on the volume of threads you've started, you seem a bit confused..on one hand you are asking about basic safety, and on the next about advanced practices...so ill make a suggestion to you

 

If you want to stick to that pathway as listed above, by all means do....but do not expect to be doing any "serious" energy work in the immediate future

 

If you want to "experience things" at an accelerated rate, which is much more efficient in a safe fashion from a Daoist perspective...let me suggest the following.

 

 

Not necessarily want to get into advanced practices. It's more like i feel like i have made progress on my own naturally without having gone through typical means of acquiring energy, and i don't believe that going the traditional route is going to serve me well in regards to timelines and what to expect to get to certain levels. Reason being because i do believe i am experiencing things at a accelerated rate.

 

So I'm just trying to get a better view of what is an optimal path to take and to see the spectrum of things that are possible, that i feel would be conducive or purposeful in my life. But also don't want to get into too deep of things where i can't even live in peace due to being overly exposed.

 

Thank you for all the resources. I've actually seen some videos of Wang Lin Ping, seemed genuine from the talks i watched. I've also been compiling a list of different practices and masters, and doing research to see what would better suit my goals.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, welkin said:

i feel like i have made progress on my own naturally without having gone through typical means of acquiring energy, and i don't believe that going the traditional route is going to serve me well in regards to timelines

 

It’s important to talk about this.

 

I’ve met many hundreds of students... maybe thousands by now. As you can imagine - with that number of people, a proportion of them thought that they are naturally talented or that they’ve somehow gone past ‘the basics’ on their own.

 

Some of them were indeed naturally talented...

 

Some were just deluded...

 

But that’s not important.

 

The important thing is that natural talent doesn’t mean you don’t need to build the foundation

 

Think of it this way... you’re studying surgery, and you somehow have this natural talent of not being bothered by blood and guts and you have a very steady hand, great dexterity, and a good ability to focus - but does that mean you can just go ahead and perform surgery and skip the rest of the medical degree?

 

Or say you have a naturally athletic build, you’re big, strong, resilient etc - but can you become an Olympic power lifter with no training?

 

Of course not.

 

This is the same with the internal arts. Regardless of talent you still need to build the foundations. Everyone always does.

 

The other issue I mentioned is delusion... sometimes we have experiences that our mind attaches to and uses it as a kind of ego fuel - so we have a genuine experience but then the mind conflates it to mean that you’re somehow extra special.

 

This is quite normal and very common in the internal arts.

 

There is nothing really wrong with that but it does create issues - particularly if you don’t have a teacher to have a word with you and confirm or deny your assumed level of development.

 

For example - one way to confirm that your foundation has been built is to stand in perfect posture, with unwavering Sung and Ting for 8hrs straight (no breaks, obviously)... it should be effortless and deeply relaxing if you’ve built ‘the Qigong body’... And with many internal teachers it is actually the test to see who’s ready to move on.

 

So yes there certainly are people with major talents - but they must all still go through the same process - they may get through some parts much faster, but they still need to do them, and they will always find parts that are just as slow and difficult for them as for anyone else. 

 

If you want to check whether your foundation is built, just stand in wuji or I jong for 8hrs straight - if that’s easy for you, then you can probably move on past the foundations. :)

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4 hours ago, welkin said:

what would you recommend for these? - 1) open and strengthen your body physically 2) find your ‘internal body’ 3) build a fully connected, elastic Qigong body 4) build a Dantien.

 

Ok 

 

1) This is quite important - for several reasons.

 

Fitness is important for building Yang in the body. For fitness anything aerobic like running or swimming is good.

 

Strength - particularly in the core of the body is also important. You’ll be creating some very strong forces and internal pressure inside, so you need strength. Also when you strengthen your muscles, it’s actually easier to Sung. A very minimally contracted strong muscle is better than a strongly contracted weak muscle for the purposes of qigong.

 

With strength training for internal arts, I’m afraid that stuff like powerlifting, kettlebells, heavy clubs, lots of pull-ups, Olympic Rings etc are all majorly detrimental to building the Qigong body.

 

What works best is connected, whole-body movements - like the ‘animal crawls’... also core work - like planks and the many variations on them. Unweighted squats are also good.

 

Opening the body - basically stretching and loosening. Particular focus should be on the lower body, shoulders and spine. Also joint mobility stuff - like Scott Sonnon’s Intuflow is good.

 

2) for finding your insides and 3) building your internal connection - the very best thing I’ve seen available is Damo Mitchell’s Foundations of Qi Gong Practice online video course.

 

4) building the Dantien - I’m afraid that’s beyond the scope of this thread.

 

4 hours ago, welkin said:

Could you explain the different secondary advised requirements for foundation?

 

Actually this is also a primary aspect of building the foundation - not secondary.

 

And that’s clearing your channels.

 

The reason I can’t say much about it is because it can’t really be ‘taught’ online. In person I’d just activate your Dantien and get your Qi moving and you would generally go through a process called Zi Fa Gong... basically means spontaneous movements. As Qi moves in your body it will hit blockages and as a result produce spontaneous spasms, shaking, flailing about, sometimes shouting, laughing, growling, singing etc. This generally takes half a year to move through if you’re practicing a lot every day.

 

This stage is not really possible without a teacher. Sometimes people start the process off on their own, but they will generally need help to move through it efficiently.

 

Not every system uses this method, but most of the more powerful ones do. All the teachers Pegasus mentioned - I’ve trained with all of them - and they all use Zi Fa Gong.

 

The other part is harmonising your organ and emotional system. This is partly accomplished with particular use of the Zi Fa Gong and partly through different forms of Wuxing Qigong.

 

Now regarding this:

 

2 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

[Wang Liping] is traditional, and holds lineage to a dragon gate sect, but you will not be subjected to years of training as a prerequisite, and will most like feel strong qi sensations among other things...some have experienced perception of the "ling" strong astral and dream experiences etc etc.

 

That’s true. You can get a lot of ‘experiences’ from both LiPing and some of the other teachers mentioned - without even having a foundation.

 

The difference is that when you have a foundation built, these experiences actually make profound changes in your development. Without the foundation they’ll just be experiences that you’ll remember fondly.

 

I’ve found that with advanced teachers they’ll generally only take on ‘inner door’ students that clearly demonstrate that they’re prepared to make a commitment and take the time and effort needed to build the foundation. Otherwise they’ll just give you a little light show for your money and you’ll leave exhilarated and very happy, but with no actual development.

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To OP:

To distinguish  a real benchmark from delusion, you'll have to meet an accomplished master at some point in your training. You need this to feel what the real qi is like. Maybe or already have it, maybe not, but without meeting a real master you will never know. It is impossible to describe online.

 

Otherwise, freeform's road map is an excellent resource for safe training, IMO.

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3 hours ago, welkin said:

 

Not necessarily want to get into advanced practices. It's more like i feel like i have made progress on my own naturally without having gone through typical means of acquiring energy, and i don't believe that going the traditional route is going to serve me well in regards to timelines and what to expect to get to certain levels. Reason being because i do believe i am experiencing things at a accelerated rate.

 

So I'm just trying to get a better view of what is an optimal path to take and to see the spectrum of things that are possible, that i feel would be conducive or purposeful in my life. But also don't want to get into too deep of things where i can't even live in peace due to being overly exposed.

 

Thank you for all the resources. I've actually seen some videos of Wang Lin Ping, seemed genuine from the talks i watched. I've also been compiling a list of different practices and masters, and doing research to see what would better suit my goals.

 

 

 

I'm just going to say this outright now and you can make what you will of it, I'm not in any way being smart about this, but i gather from your post that because you do not want a traditional path, you may be seeking accelerated stuff

 

If that is the case then you need to understand how levels of reality work....there are the physical, energetic and spiritual planes of existence.....the traditional path that @freeform is discussing  begins with the physical aspect, moves towards the energetic and finally onto the spiritual. This is common in Daoism, but in other traditions it is less adhered too. Bardons system of Hermeticism trains all three simultaneously rather than sequentially, and there are other systems that bypass the entire thing and go straight to the spiritual aspect, which then moves down into energetic and physical work ( Im honestly not over-familiar with the mechanics here, just a basic understanding, but some of it is left hand path like certain tantra, vamamarga and western esoteric sects

 

Based on this, although it would seem i completely disagree with @freeform I do not, there is total accuracy in what is said. Whatever you do, absolutely do not try to do energy work alone....you will most likely cause a blockage and these can lead to cancer and strokes, among other things...This is why the Western Mo Pai offshoot is so dangerous...no teacher and no gauge

 

The difference with circumventing the physical/energetic at first and going to the spiritual as per the LHP and some esoteric/Occult sects, is that you will most likely channel and tap into energies and streams of consciousness that will guide you...On that note the school we were talking about in the other thread use the Goetia, among others (You'd see some mentioned in the Bible, like Belial)

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Ok 

 

1) This is quite important - for several reasons.

 

Fitness is important for building Yang in the body. For fitness anything aerobic like running or swimming is good.

 

Strength - particularly in the core of the body is also important. You’ll be creating some very strong forces and internal pressure inside, so you need strength. Also when you strengthen your muscles, it’s actually easier to Sung. A very minimally contracted strong muscle is better than a strongly contracted weak muscle for the purposes of qigong.

 

With strength training for internal arts, I’m afraid that stuff like powerlifting, kettlebells, heavy clubs, lots of pull-ups, Olympic Rings etc are all majorly detrimental to building the Qigong body.

 

What works best is connected, whole-body movements - like the ‘animal crawls’... also core work - like planks and the many variations on them. Unweighted squats are also good.

 

Opening the body - basically stretching and loosening. Particular focus should be on the lower body, shoulders and spine. Also joint mobility stuff - like Scott Sonnon’s Intuflow is good.

 

2) for finding your insides and 3) building your internal connection - the very best thing I’ve seen available is Damo Mitchell’s Foundations of Qi Gong Practice online video course.

 

4) building the Dantien - I’m afraid that’s beyond the scope of this thread.

 

 

Actually this is also a primary aspect of building the foundation - not secondary.

 

And that’s clearing your channels.

 

The reason I can’t say much about it is because it can’t really be ‘taught’ online. In person I’d just activate your Dantien and get your Qi moving and you would generally go through a process called Zi Fa Gong... basically means spontaneous movements. As Qi moves in your body it will hit blockages and as a result produce spontaneous spasms, shaking, flailing about, sometimes shouting, laughing, growling, singing etc. This generally takes half a year to move through if you’re practicing a lot every day.

 

This stage is not really possible without a teacher. Sometimes people start the process off on their own, but they will generally need help to move through it efficiently.

 

Not every system uses this method, but most of the more powerful ones do. All the teachers Pegasus mentioned - I’ve trained with all of them - and they all use Zi Fa Gong.

 

The other part is harmonising your organ and emotional system. This is partly accomplished with particular use of the Zi Fa Gong and partly through different forms of Wuxing Qigong.

 

Now regarding this:

 

 

That’s true. You can get a lot of ‘experiences’ from both LiPing and some of the other teachers mentioned - without even having a foundation.

 

The difference is that when you have a foundation built, these experiences actually make profound changes in your development. Without the foundation they’ll just be experiences that you’ll remember fondly.

 

I’ve found that with advanced teachers they’ll generally only take on ‘inner door’ students that clearly demonstrate that they’re prepared to make a commitment and take the time and effort needed to build the foundation. Otherwise they’ll just give you a little light show for your money and you’ll leave exhilarated and very happy, but with no actual development.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, but i believe a simple exercise routine with moderate amounts of resistance...lets say 2x a week using bodyweight so like press up, pull up, inverted row, split squats and lunges can be beneficial, if stretching is done between sets in addition to the regular stretching and some core work wouldn't prove overly detrimental... A lot of Shaolin Monks do similar training (not precisely) but they do utilize some bodyweight training, and I would say they have pretty well developed qigong bodies (the ones that practice it anyway)

 

I understand the point regards the experiences...but lipings sessions literally have students  in excruciating pain by opening up channels and removing some blockages dont they? , at least thats what all the reviews say from what ive seen....of course if they never do anything before or afterwards, it will be of little use...but if they were to actually work the contents of the book im sure they would build a pretty solid practice with some guidance, don't you think?

 

 

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12 hours ago, welkin said:

I'm interested in the safety and efficiency factors of the Daoist path. What if we take the middle ground of doing alone style practice (yes i know everyone says get a master). Unfortunately a lot of people and possibly me included (not sure yet), prefer to practice on our own. So of course even if it is recommended with a master, what sort of safety measures and efficiency paths can we take?

 

Safety and Efficiency?

 

Daoist path?

 

If you have no teachers, where is "Daoist path" coming from?

 

Books? Those are written by teachers.

 

Why would someone want no teacher but want to know?

 

Is that how people are on the Algebra path? The surgeon path? Pilot?

 

$4000 seminars - how do people without any teacher know if they are ripped off?

 

Every day, people are happy, not knowing.

 

There is no real "safety" if you don't really know what you are studying.

 

There is no real "efficiency" either.

 

Any traditional Gongfu school is a decent place to actually start.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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12 hours ago, welkin said:

I'm interested in the safety and efficiency factors of the Daoist path. What if we take the middle ground of doing alone style practice (yes i know everyone says get a master). Unfortunately a lot of people and possibly me included (not sure yet), prefer to practice on our own.

 

Practicing on your own can be perfectly safe if you use moving chi kung that requires relaxation, and most chi kung was like that in the past.  Since the advent of books combined with money grubbers the visualization methods have gained a lot of popularity with the armchair crowd.  Those are just about guaranteed to be unsafe without the close supervision of a master, and even so, they ruin someone for the path of power ... inTaoism.

 

Practicing a good moving chi kung on your own can be an efficient way to get a good start while always keeping an eye on the fact that everyone needs a powerful master to help get their motor started.  For a person to expect to be accepted by an advanced master when they haven't practiced anything of the kind before is not realistic.

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16 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

$4000 seminars - how do people without any teacher know if they are ripped off?

 

My teacher said that seminars are an absolute waste, and he was right as far as chi kung was concerned.

 

For martial artists with previous experience going to a seminar by a teacher who is upline from their lineage, or one that is similar, can be a good help but it can never replace regular practice sessions with an adept or master.

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The Basic's - the Foundation is never discarded. It is the most advanced of all practice. 

To dismiss this is to have a very poor understanding of the Basic's.

 

If you are thoroughly grounded in the Foundation - you will proceed in no need of a master - but if a master is needed or wanted a master will arrive.

 

Part of the Basic's is to understand or have indicated to you in and through practice - your strengths and weaknesses regarding energetic fluxuations and capacities. Subjugation is an abyss. Subtle bodies are not forced into molds of concept and doing.

 

Carry Salt - with a grain of salt check that you are not deluding yourself

Measure head - listen to how you speak and follow your path - it is a religion? something you believe in? or is it not something but a way of being that brings you to drop belief again and again and find presence in non-grasping. Is there ever increasing patience or more and more expedient means?

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

the traditional path that @freeform is discussing  begins with the physical aspect, moves towards the energetic and finally onto the spiritual. This is common in Daoism, but in other traditions it is less adhered too.

 

Yeah, you’re quite right.

 

Actually there are ‘upside down’ paths in Daoism too. Kunlun being one of them.

 

I trained with Max quite extensively for several years before meeting my more ‘traditional’ teachers.

 

The way Kunlun works is by activating the upper Dantien, receiving a specific ‘seed’ of Ling Qi that then guides and evolves through the basic practice of Zi fa Gong and Red Phoenix.

 

However...

 

If you spend time with Max, it becomes quite clear that that’s not really the full story.

 

Max himself trained in the traditional way that I talk about. Anyone that had had any genuine progress in Kunlun (such as Kan) had also ‘built the foundation’ as I describe above.

 

A good proportion of other students with no foundation just got mired in delusion. Some just burnt out and had breakdowns. Some were fine.

 

I’ve also trained with a Hermetic teacher... yes there’s a certain crossover from the beginning, but just like in Daoism a significant part of the start of the path is working on the physical level.

 

Same thing with LiPing - he can tell when you have a foundation and I’ll just say that you’re treated differently to the other students...

 

People love to know the big inner door secrets... it’s actually all in the foundation!! I’m not saying this for some personal aim. That’s just a fact. In every system I’ve come across (and I spent a significant time doing this stuff full time, all around the world)... the thing that sets you apart as a student is how well you’ve built your foundation.

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3 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

lets say 2x a week using bodyweight so like press up, pull up, inverted row, split squats and lunges can be beneficial

 

Yeah - most bodyweight stuff is good. Just watch out for the more ‘extreme’ forms - like muscle ups and Olympic Rings...

 

Animal crawls and ‘flows’ are good for when your Qi Gong body is beginning to connect as it gives you a chance to integrate this inner connection with the more ‘external’ muscles.

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Regarding discernment and delusion.

 

I think this is an important thing to touch on.

 

When you start to get into the more energetic aspects of practice, it becomes exciting. You’ll experience unusual stuff and it’s really easy to get carried away.

 

The way I approach my training is not popular.

 

I’m on the lookout for errors. Progress on the path is making less and less errors.

 

And you often need to make the error, before moving on.

 

No error means you’re a fully enlightened immortal - anything other than that is error :)

 

I’m not focusing on experiences or how well I’m doing or how sensitive I am... I’m generally trying to find out what error can I correct? 

 

Of course this this is not all the time - it would drive you nuts, it’s not like it’s a running commentary in my head - but it’s the general attitude I take.

 

My notes that I take after practice are generally talking about things I need to work on - not things I’ve been doing correctly.

 

My questions to my teachers are generally about where I need to improve and what errors I need to correct next.

 

(The answer almost always includes “more Sung”!)

 

It takes a lot of self-honesty to do things this way. But I think it’s a good way of overcoming the potential error of delusion :) 

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Freeform - thank you so much for taking the time to write all this.  It is wonderful information, but your way of putting it - even for the layman - brings it all into focus.  All the bits and pieces that I've picked up 'somewhere' that were tucked away in a little drawer in my psyche, connected all at once as I read your words.  My dantien is tingling and feels huge.

 

Did you mean to transmit through your words to date?  Or is there more to come?

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6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I’m on the lookout for errors. Progress on the path is making less and less errors.

 

 

 

As it is with the spiritual path.  The everyday plodding and monitoring of the inner self; the natural desire to express that which We really Are.  This is to get out of our own way.

 

 

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17 hours ago, freeform said:

Think of it this way... you’re studying surgery, and you somehow have this natural talent of not being bothered by blood and guts and you have a very steady hand, great dexterity, and a good ability to focus - but does that mean you can just go ahead and perform surgery and skip the rest of the medical degree?

 

Or say you have a naturally athletic build, you’re big, strong, resilient etc - but can you become an Olympic power lifter with no training?

 

This is the same with the internal arts. Regardless of talent you still need to build the foundations. Everyone always does.

 

For example - one way to confirm that your foundation has been built is to stand in perfect posture, with unwavering Sung and Ting for 8hrs straight (no breaks, obviously)... it should be effortless and deeply relaxing if you’ve built ‘the Qigong body’... And with many internal teachers it is actually the test to see who’s ready to move on.

 

 

So yes there certainly are people with major talents - but they must all still go through the same process - they may get through some parts much faster, but they still need to do them, and they will always find parts that are just as slow and difficult for them as for anyone else. 

 

If you want to check whether your foundation is built, just stand in wuji or I jong for 8hrs straight - if that’s easy for you, then you can probably move on past the foundations. :)

 

I completely understand these are things i need to be aware of, and will do. I've paid the price multiple times for most likely doing things i shouldn't have, but got through them and learned from each mistake. That being said, i know there is a lot i don't know, but i am being realistic in what i will most likely be doing and want to take a cautious approach with that.

 

 

For me i would say, i'm a person who doesn't know surgery exists, and i had to cut into my arms or legs just to figure out solutions to my own issues, and learned through trial and error what things are possible maybe at a lower level. And then i discovered something called surgery.

 

I am probably very far from being able to stand for 8 hours. But i may start at 1 and see where it goes from there :). What is sung and ting? i assume it is perfect balance of top and bottom?

 

 

 

16 hours ago, freeform said:

1) This is quite important - for several reasons.

 

Fitness is important for building Yang in the body. For fitness anything aerobic like running or swimming is good.

 

Strength - particularly in the core of the body is also important. You’ll be creating some very strong forces and internal pressure inside, so you need strength. Also when you strengthen your muscles, it’s actually easier to Sung. A very minimally contracted strong muscle is better than a strongly contracted weak muscle for the purposes of qigong.

 

With strength training for internal arts, I’m afraid that stuff like powerlifting, kettlebells, heavy clubs, lots of pull-ups, Olympic Rings etc are all majorly detrimental to building the Qigong body.

 

What works best is connected, whole-body movements - like the ‘animal crawls’... also core work - like planks and the many variations on them. Unweighted squats are also good.

 

Opening the body - basically stretching and loosening. Particular focus should be on the lower body, shoulders and spine. Also joint mobility stuff - like Scott Sonnon’s Intuflow is good.

 

We're on the same page for the exercising. However, i will say that i believe that in reality some strength training things actually involve the entire body, it's just that people don't know how to use it correctly. Me having been one of them. But i believe with very meditated breathing and proper muscle  activation one might be able to unlock better development. I'm currently testing this breathing process by which i breathe out both on the eccentric and concentric motions. And breathing in only at the top or bottom of the movement. Along with focusing on core stability and proper spinal alignment, almost as if utilizing the entire body to perform any movement.

 

Besides movements such as animal crawls and planks, i've been doing therapeutic and muscle correcting exercises with floor sliders, they utilize muscle stabilizers that i don't really feel as much through any other type of movements. Gives a closer sense of muscle activation that swimming provides.

 

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2) for finding your insides and 3) building your internal connection - the very best thing I’ve seen available is Damo Mitchell’s Foundations of Qi Gong Practice online video course.

 

I will take your word for it and get it. I am going to also be doing flying pheonix as i hear it provides benefit across all other practices.

 

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The reason I can’t say much about it is because it can’t really be ‘taught’ online. In person I’d just activate your Dantien and get your Qi moving and you would generally go through a process called Zi Fa Gong... basically means spontaneous movements. As Qi moves in your body it will hit blockages and as a result produce spontaneous spasms, shaking, flailing about, sometimes shouting, laughing, growling, singing etc. This generally takes half a year to move through if you’re practicing a lot every day.

 

When i was solely focusing on trying to build that, i believe i may have been building it and did feel the effects. I even felt this ball of heat in my stomache one night and had to just sleep through it. Though, i have not been as dedicated since. So moving forward, i am going to pretend nothing happened, but i do plan on trying to build it at least through meditation. To be safe maybe you can tell me if this is safe:

I initially confirmed it through mo pai style of level 1 meditation. That being said, before that i had discovered this technique of breathing while facing down and trying to breathe into the back as opposed into the stomach. So the method i know how to do and is fairly natural to me now, though i don't do every time now is reverse breathing. I do it by being in half lotus, breathe in while creating barrier in my inner muscles behind abs, breathe into the back and spine, upon release expand middle stomach, while at the same time keeping middle rhomboid muscles outward, but at the same time letting air go out, so that if one were to be looking at the body perpendicularly you would be creating a more balanced center between back and front. (i dont plan on doing mo pai, just found this breathing natural to me)

 

I know i will be meeting a master at some point. i have no doubt on that.

 

Opinion on doing Kundalini Yoga? Is Kundalini yoga the best way to reach kundalini?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

I'm just going to say this outright now and you can make what you will of it, I'm not in any way being smart about this, but i gather from your post that because you do not want a traditional path, you may be seeking accelerated stuff

 

If that is the case then you need to understand how levels of reality work....there are the physical, energetic and spiritual planes of existence.....the traditional path that @freeform is discussing  begins with the physical aspect, moves towards the energetic and finally onto the spiritual. This is common in Daoism, but in other traditions it is less adhered too. Bardons system of Hermeticism trains all three simultaneously rather than sequentially, and there are other systems that bypass the entire thing and go straight to the spiritual aspect, which then moves down into energetic and physical work ( Im honestly not over-familiar with the mechanics here, just a basic understanding, but some of it is left hand path like certain tantra, vamamarga and western esoteric sects

 

Based on this, although it would seem i completely disagree with @freeform I do not, there is total accuracy in what is said. Whatever you do, absolutely do not try to do energy work alone....you will most likely cause a blockage and these can lead to cancer and strokes, among other things...This is why the Western Mo Pai offshoot is so dangerous...no teacher and no gauge

 

The difference with circumventing the physical/energetic at first and going to the spiritual as per the LHP and some esoteric/Occult sects, is that you will most likely channel and tap into energies and streams of consciousness that will guide you...On that note the school we were talking about in the other thread use the Goetia, among others (You'd see some mentioned in the Bible, like Belial)

 

To be honest i feel my energy is drawn more towards hermetics or occult practices, the energies just seem to come naturally. But i would rather be a Jedi and i see Tao or eastern practices as that :)

 

Roger that on the energy stuff. Going to get a better understanding see someone before i can trust it.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/16/2019 at 12:02 PM, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Safety and Efficiency?

 

Daoist path?

 

If you have no teachers, where is "Daoist path" coming from?

 

Books? Those are written by teachers.

 

Something else led me here. Too many details to get into it.

 

Though i wouldn't say i'm necessarily on any path. I'm just trying to understand things, and this seems to be a purposeful place to explore. I find several commonalities with my ideas.

 

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Why would someone want no teacher but want to know?

 

Is that how people are on the Algebra path? The surgeon path? Pilot?

 

These are great questions. I don't have anything against teachers. But I always hated being taught by someone else because i feel like it puts you in a box. And also, my whole life i've liked experimenting on my own, because i think that's where infinite intelligence comes in and one can create new advances. But i do realize the risks, hence this thread.

 

Edit: i'm a hermit currently. I don't see this as bad. I am perhaps more at peace than i have been in a long time. But now i need to start acting upon my life, and do what i know i can do. So gonna build myself up, and then show my face again.
 

Edited by welkin
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13 hours ago, Spotless said:

The Basic's - the Foundation is never discarded. It is the most advanced of all practice. 

To dismiss this is to have a very poor understanding of the Basic's.

 

If you are thoroughly grounded in the Foundation - you will proceed in no need of a master - but if a master is needed or wanted a master will arrive.

 

Part of the Basic's is to understand or have indicated to you in and through practice - your strengths and weaknesses regarding energetic fluxuations and capacities. Subjugation is an abyss. Subtle bodies are not forced into molds of concept and doing.

 

Carry Salt - with a grain of salt check that you are not deluding yourself

Measure head - listen to how you speak and follow your path - it is a religion? something you believe in? or is it not something but a way of being that brings you to drop belief again and again and find presence in non-grasping. Is there ever increasing patience or more and more expedient means?

 

I may be deluding myself and have thought about that. But i also have had a lot of inexplicable things happen that i won't disclose. So truth might be somewhere in the middle. That's why i plan to be disciplined in what i can practice, to know i put the work in.

 

I feel like i am working with purpose rather than intrigue initially. I find intrigue as a result of purpose rather than vice versa.

 

So it's exciting to follow the signs and see what new things are meant to be unveiled to one.

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12 hours ago, freeform said:

People love to know the big inner door secrets... it’s actually all in the foundation!! I’m not saying this for some personal aim. That’s just a fact. In every system I’ve come across (and I spent a significant time doing this stuff full time, all around the world)... the thing that sets you apart as a student is how well you’ve built your foundation.

 

What keypoints determine a strong foundation or proof of a strong foundation. 8 hour standing is 1 example?

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Hi Welkin...

 

So I think we need to talk about ‘dabbling’.

 

You’ve talked about Mo pai breathing, kundalini yoga, flying Phoenix, heavy weight training, Damo Mitchell’s stuff, Hermetics etc.

 

You’re going to need to focus on one thing. It is not the case that doing mo pai breathing while practicing flying Phoenix and doing Hermetics training will give you some extraordinary results. In fact it’s the very opposite.

 

I realise it’s exciting to have all these possibilities in front of you. I’m not saying you shouldn’t explore them, but to actually get anywhere you will need to pick one path and stick to it.

 

The best way to explore is to actually meet people practicing these systems. You’ll get a very good vibe of what each school is like by meeting students and teachers.

 

You can work out which ones seem more compatible and who would you rather turn out like (the nature of this sort of training is that you’ll start to harmonise with the teacher and general ‘personality’ of the school)

 

You can’t combine these things - it just doesn’t work like that... it’s like getting all excited that you got into aeronautical engineering so you put a helicopter blade, a hot air balloon and some rocket boosters on a passenger plane...

 

I’d suggest just make a habit of training something physical every day.

 

Do some basic sitting practice like following your breath (not breath control like you talked about - you will end up hurting yourself).

 

And then explore, talk to people (not just on forums) and see what path you’d like to follow. 

 

Once you’ve got a disciplined daily routine (this can be hard to establish) then it will be easy to plug in a more ‘internal’ practice in that time slot.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, freeform said:

The way I approach my training is not popular.

 

I’m on the lookout for errors. Progress on the path is making less and less errors.

 

And you often need to make the error, before moving on.

 

No error means you’re a fully enlightened immortal - anything other than that is error :)

 

I’m not focusing on experiences or how well I’m doing or how sensitive I am... I’m generally trying to find out what error can I correct? 

 

Of course this this is not all the time - it would drive you nuts, it’s not like it’s a running commentary in my head - but it’s the general attitude I take.

 

My notes that I take after practice are generally talking about things I need to work on - not things I’ve been doing correctly.

 

My questions to my teachers are generally about where I need to improve and what errors I need to correct next.

 

(The answer almost always includes “more Sung”!)

 

It takes a lot of self-honesty to do things this way. But I think it’s a good way of overcoming the potential error of delusion :) 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this. You and several others have confirmed this. That the true findings are in looking for imperfections or  errors and looking for perfection. I don't claim to do this maybe as advanced as others. But i do my best to focus on this while running, meditating, walking, sitting on the couch, laying in bed. I can imagine this applies in qigong, tai chi, yoga.

 

 

Edited by welkin

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