dawei

Neiye - Section 1 - The Essential Qi

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I've just come back to this topic after a day's break from the web and I will make my post before reading all the above discussion so I'm not distracted by it.

 

When I first read the Neiye the gist of it spoke clearly to me. I didn’t dwell on any of the obscure images. It was only when I started to write it out for myself that I puzzled over lines like the one being discussed. (And there’s not many in the Neiye like this, mostly it’s relatively straightforward.)

 

Here is some imagery I find relevant to this line and to the Neiye as a whole......

 

Jolie Holland sings in her song of passionate longing, Amen

 

“There's a light inside my chest
That switched on when we first met
And it will not let me rest - Amen “

 

It seems to me that in ordinary people this high level manifestation of vital essence we call passionate love flares up and flames out relatively quickly.  It’s something amazing, numinous but chaotic and unstable.  Whereas for the sage of the Neiye the same vital essence burns continually with a steady glow. They have somehow transmuted vital essence into something manageable that can be stored in the chest. 
 

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4 minutes ago, Yueya said:

I've just come back to this topic after a day's break from the web and I will make my post before reading all the above discussion so I'm not distracted by it.

 

When I first read the Neiye the gist of it spoke clearly to me. I didn’t dwell on any of the obscure images. It was only when I started to write it out for myself that I puzzled over lines like the one being discussed. (And there’s not many in the Neiye like this, mostly it’s relatively straightforward.)

 

Here is some imagery I find relevant to this line and to the Neiye as a whole......

 

Jolie Holland sings in her song of passionate longing, Amen

 

“There's a light inside my chest
That switched on when we first met
And it will not let me rest - Amen “

 

It seems to me that in ordinary people this high level manifestation of vital essence we call passionate love flares up and flames out relatively quickly.  It’s something amazing, numinous but chaotic and unstable.  Whereas for the sage of the Neiye the same vital essence burns continually with a steady glow. They have somehow transmuted vital essence into something manageable that can be stored in the chest. 
 

 

Excellent :)

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57 minutes ago, Yueya said:

I've just come back to this topic after a day's break from the web and I will make my post before reading all the above discussion so I'm not distracted by it.

 

Hi Yueya,

 

I am a new kid on the Neiye block - so I am quite a blank page relative to it.

 

I am a 'feeling' person and I do not like my mind to be programmed with words. For me ~ nothing tops like experience.

 

As mentioned to you in an earlier post ~ to-date I have read only DDJ Chapter 42 and your booklet...

Neiye (Inward Training).

 

On 5/10/2019 at 12:29 PM, Yueya said:

For anyone interested, it’s available for free download here as a pdf file. And it has excellent pictures.  

 

 

dawei's Neiye threads caught my initial attention but it is with your booklet ~ that I had (and still have) an experience thus... "When I first read the  Neiye... it spoke clearly to me."

 

Your booklet puts some very clear words to my feelings - thank you.

 

Thank you also for the green light to allow me to communicate with you privately.

 

- Anand

 

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4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

There are a couple of lines that seem to suggest a transformation:

 

是 謂 成 德 This is called developed De.

 

能 搏 乎 Can you consolidate it?

 

 

I suspect we will revisit the location issue multiple times throughout this text. 

 

We have not crossed the sections your are mentioning so I can't comment yet.   Yes, location will come up many times.

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On 5/9/2019 at 9:13 PM, dawei said:

1. The vital essence of all things:
2. It is this that brings them to life.
3. It generates the five grains below
4. And becomes the constellated stars above.
5. When flowing amid the heavens and the earth
6. We call it ghostly and numinous.
7. When stored within the chests of human beings,
8. We call them sages.

 

I try to explain:

Vital Essence is not "Dao".

 

So no "location" for Dao is stated.

 

Essence is polarities and potentials, inherited and acquired.

 

These are what produce Movement - Living, Qi.

Qi is Movement.

 

This is the YinYang of the One, which is producing Wu Xing - Time. Earth.

 

And what sees the 12 Branches. Heaven.

 

So this is the Qi and the movement of and between Heaven and Earth.

 

Qi flowing in polarities bigger than we are, we cannot see directly - we only see their effects.

 

But Qi flowing in us informs our intelligence directly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

... Dantien only makes sense if the medicine or pill is being generated...

 

 

 

"The primary functions of the Three Dantians is to gather, store, and transform life-force energy." JAJ

 

In the first verse there is definitely storing. Perhaps gathering is also suggested, as this earlier post from dawei implies: 藏 - conceal/hide/harbor/collect. If there is a reference to transforming later in the text then this may solve the issue of whether this first verse is referring to a dantian proper, or if it is just a reference to storing (and gathering?) essence in an early foreshadowing of neidan perhaps. 

 

 

Edited by Bindi

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5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

"The primary functions of the Three Dantians is to gather, store, and transform life-force energy." JAJ

 

In the first verse there is definitely storing. Perhaps gathering is also suggested, as this earlier post from dawei implies: 藏 - conceal/hide/harbor/collect. If there is a reference to transforming later in the text then this may solve the issue of whether this first verse is referring to a dantian proper, or if it is just a reference to storing (and gathering?) essence in an early foreshadowing of neidan perhaps. 

 

 

11.

 

When your body is not aligned,
The inner power will not arrive.
When the centre lacks stillness,
The heart-mind will not be well-ordered.

Align your body and assist inner power—

Then it will gradually arrive on its own.

 

 

I'm sure that gathering, transforming and so on are involved.  I'm not saying the 'chest/heart' is not the MDT in some sense - I'm just saying the term MDT is specific to Neidan because it uses alchemical terms and images and this is because of the idea of creating the elixir or pill - and hence parts of the subtle body become fields in which to do this (Dantien).

 

The Neiye is much older than the Neidan and probably is one of its antecedents.  Because of this, to respect the text, I prefer to let the text speak to me without imposing any supposed framework upon it if you see what I mean.  I learned this reading Egyptian texts - upon which many impose theories about what they mean.  But if you suspend all theory and just listen to what the text itself is saying, using only references from the same text so it is self-consistent, clearer insights emerge into what is being said.  To give it a fancy name this is called a phenomenological approach to textual analysis.  If you start to introduce terms external to the source text the clarity of the original message is lost.  However afterwards when understanding has been gained it is possible to look outside for comparison and so on.

 

Obviously this approach is for me - I'm not trying to tell you that you have to approach things in this way if you don't want to.  But I am just explaining why I am picky about certain terms and so on.

 

:)

 

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2 hours ago, Apech said:

Align your body and assist inner power—

Then it will gradually arrive on its own.

 

Hi Apech,

 

When it arrives thus ~ perhaps I will be aligned and in line for wu-wei?

 

And when I reach the end of the line ~ maybe I will be wu- words?

 

- Anand

 

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12 hours ago, Bindi said:

"The primary functions of the Three Dantians is to gather, store, and transform life-force energy." JAJ

 

Nobody stores anything in a moving wheel.

 

"Storage" is Yin.

 

Tantiens are not Yin.

 

"Stored" in the passage just means always happens inside.

 

They are discussing Qi like saying "macrocosm and microcosm" - large in nature and small in human, of same process.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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The important point to me regarding location is that the text informs us that something is going to manifest there. The text doesn't say that some work has to be done or even the attention needs to be placed in the chest/heart area.

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4 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

"Stored" in the passage just means always happens inside.

 

I tend to agree but there seems something even broader going on...  it flows above and below and does much more than just play a game of storage (or depository), IMO. I'm waiting to see how the terms like Jing, Qi, Shen, Dao, De are related and treated very similarly (or not).  

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1 minute ago, oak said:

The important point to me regarding location is that the text informs us that something is going to manifest there. The text doesn't say that some work has to be done or even the attention needs to be placed in the chest/heart area.

 

I'm thinking it's already/always there... it just needs the right conditions to be revealed.

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4 hours ago, dawei said:

是 故 民 氣 Thus the Qi of the citizens :

what happened to this line in other transls?

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4 hours ago, dawei said:

I'm thinking it's already/always there... it just needs the right conditions to be revealed.

 

Not about revealing or doing.

 

Just says:

 

5. When flowing amid the heavens and the earth
6. We call it ghostly and numinous.
7. When stored within the chests of human beings,
8. We call them sages.

 

It is about Qi. 

 

If you look at large polarities, like between Heaven and Earth, those causing weather, etc - hard to see full spectrum of event.

 

Inside people, same phenomena is going on - movement and Qi - and this we can understand.

 

And by understanding in ourselves what we are aware of, we are understanding the larger outside that we are maybe not.

 

This isn't cultivated. Just describe. Not talking about cultivating at this point.

 

It is simply pointed out - "realized", etc.

 

Nothing in text shown so far is about cultivating or you doing anything.

 

Text isn't a cultivation techniques manual to begin with.

 

It is something else.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

what happened to this line in other transls?

 

disenfranchised?

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1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

disenfranchised?

it looks as if they could not figure it out and dropped it altogether. people? what people? hehe

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On 5/12/2019 at 6:26 AM, Yueya said:

When I first read the Neiye the gist of it spoke clearly to me.

 

Hi Yueya,

 

th?id=OIP.PbI-KM_X9nGEgXgwWvhcwQHaEK&pid=15.1&P=0&w=302&h=170

 

This is how I feel when I read your booklet ~ clearly.

 

- Anand

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I read the location somewhat metaphoricly, as in center of being. But also more that just location ... condition, process ... which is what we will go on to see in the rest of the text.

 

What stood out for me was the undefined reference to "it". Leaves a lot open to interpretation. I have a little bit of trouble with the idea "it" is stored or collected in the chest. I tend be believe it is always present ... But that interpretation does not seem to be support in the first passage.

 

Then there is the notion, as pointed out, that "it" is everywhere, throughout. Which leads me to ask what then is the function of the center. Is it an abode into which "it" is collected or stored, as the text says. Or, is the center the locus of process/condition where one experiences awareness of "it".

 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, OldDog said:

"it"

 

Hi OldDog,

 

Where is the center of "it" in Information Technology (IT)?

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited by Limahong
Correct errors.

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17 minutes ago, Limahong said:

Where is the center of "it" in Information Technology (IT)?

 

Between The "I" and the "T". ;)

 

As far as Information Technology  goes, I can absolutely tell you that it is only when the heart-mind are calmed and settled that IT truly appears. And that is not a joke.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, OldDog said:

And that is not a joke.

 

Hi OldDog,

 

I believe you - a practitioner in the IT sector.

 

- Anand

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The two main ideas here are qi and te ... or is it Qi  and Te. In the west we capitalize words that have specific and distinct meaning. Certainly, there are analyses where there is distinction made between athe generic use of a term and the specific. Which is it here? Can those who read the original source material give guidance?

 

We have certainly heard of qi as being dispersed, scattered. So, it makes sense that it may be thought of as being collected or gathered. If so "it" or is it by its concentration that which enables awareness of "it"? Is it substance or acting?

 

Te is a very interesting subject. Here it is likened to virtue, which in my mind is just as vague. I envision virtue to be a collection of enabling qualities, one of which is intent. Sincerity also comes to mind.

 

These are the things thst jump out for me in this passage.

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On 12/05/2019 at 9:11 PM, Apech said:

The Neiye is much older than the Neidan and probably is one of its antecedents.  Because of this, to respect the text, I prefer to let the text speak to me without imposing any supposed framework upon it if you see what I mean.  I learned this reading Egyptian texts - upon which many impose theories about what they mean.  But if you suspend all theory and just listen to what the text itself is saying, using only references from the same text so it is self-consistent, clearer insights emerge into what is being said.  To give it a fancy name this is called a phenomenological approach to textual analysis.  If you start to introduce terms external to the source text the clarity of the original message is lost.  However afterwards when understanding has been gained it is possible to look outside for comparison and so on.

 

Obviously this approach is for me - I'm not trying to tell you that you have to approach things in this way if you don't want to.  But I am just explaining why I am picky about certain terms and so on.

 

 

Yes. A good method and well expressed. But that’s only half of xin. The intellectual half. The other way of exploring a text is with the heart. 

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I wrote in the introduction that the Neiye could also be called The Art of the Heart-Mind, or The Way of the Numinous Xin.  That’s what I consider the Neiye to be. And this first chapter gives a glimpse of the end result. The sage is someone with vital essence stored within their chest. This realised, high level, vital essence of the sage referred to in the Neiye is in later Daoism called shen.  


Here’s how Louis Komjathy attempts to explain it:

 

“The heart-mind is the emotional and intellectual centre of the human person. It is associated with consciousness and identified as the storehouse of spirit (shen  神). In its original or realized condition, the heart-mind has the ability to attain numinous pervasion: in its disoriented or habituated condition, especially in a state of hyper-emotionality or intellectualism, the heart-mind has the ability to separate the adept from the Dao as Source. The latter is often referred to as the "ordinary heart-mind" or more poetically as the "monkey-mind”, while the former is often referred to as the "original heart-mind". The ordinary heart-mind is characterized by chaos and instability, while the original heart-mind is characterized by coherence and constancy.”

 

The term “monkey mind” for me has always been associated with thoughts. But thoughts are only half of xin.  Important, yes, but what underpins it all for me is feelings / emotions.  It’s about transmuting the vital essence of my chaotic human heart into a stable numinous heart.  And to do this I need to cultivate my innate connection with the xin of Dao, the numinous heart-mind. The remainder of the Neiye gives some clues as to how I might do so.  
 

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1 hour ago, Yueya said:

 

Yes. A good method and well expressed. But that’s only half of xin. The intellectual half. The other way of exploring a text is with the heart. 

 

 

That's partly true and I see where you're coming from but actually if you respect the text and listen properly you get a lot more than intellectual understanding.  You could say you get contact with the sage who wrote it.

 

 

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