welkin

Who is Loneman Pai?

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Its  a pity I cannot locate videos of the glass eating...but if I do manage ill be sure to post it

 

Please don't. 

 

Self-mutilation is a sign of mental instability - not spiritual attainment. And I'm finding this rather nonsensical and a bit distasteful.

 

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I was just thinking...

 

That's a vegetarian festival?

 

For a bunch of vegetarians they sure seem to like the taste of blood.

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7 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

They were involved in making the film.

 

And even the best testimony from them is just hearsay.

 

So the best evidence "for" what you want is just hearsay, and the evidence "against" is that this is a common trick done by street performers all over the place.

 

Also, "academic" with knowledge of electronic engineering know about low-power LED lamps, new at that time.

 

Video of people cutting tongues also isn't showing any special functioning any more than the videos of the big piercings did.

 

If you actually study Chinese martial arts and Qigong and Daoist philosophy, you can learn what to look for and what is fake junk. Otherwise, there is no real basis to judge people as being involved in these or not.

 

But wow - strong opinions.

 

So willing to make up stuff about people without know anything, and hold onto fake like a gem.

 

What's it all for?

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

Right more nonsense from you, well lets address it

 

#1 no they weren't involved, they were asked to come, they had zero to do with making the film...check the credits and such....and please stop making empty claims, im getting tired of addressing them, and its making you look like you cannot actually look at the facts whatsoever...but then that doesn't surprise me....it only reinforces what i said earlier about ignorance pertaining to the matter.

 

#2 hearsay it is not, the tests are done on camera, cameras do not provide hearsay...try harder

 

#3 Wheres the proof they had no knowledge? none...didn't think so....stop pretending you understand the situation, or have access to intimate facts regarding this situation that others don't....you don't have that , and ill reiterate my earlier point about making claims with zero evidence

 

#4 invocation is a well understood practice across many " traditional " and esoteric arts  (including daoism) your lack of recognition of this tells me you are either (a) hopelessly involved in some pseudo discipline or (b) telling more lies.....neither being true would surprise me at this point.

 

#5 it provides evidence for the bypass of neurobiological functioning of pain mechanisms via consciousness alteration....I am not surprised you don't get that either, you've proven yourself quite incompetent in all things science related so far.....try harder next time, and perhaps pick up a biology book and read the chapter on pain.....and its perception

 

#6 whats most hilarious of all is that THIS IS A DAOIST FESTIVAL, so your discussion about studying real things pertaining to philosophy is quite honestly misplaced....you yourself show a limited understanding and awareness of Daoism. Also, lets not forget just how  much of Daosim is basically plagiarism, drawn from earlier traditions. So, I do not need to study philosophy for any reason, because philosophy does not prove anything....SCIENCE PROVES THINGS....So perhaps take your own advice and go read a biology book, before trying to make claims about what is and is not evidence of anything, when you have zero understanding of whats even being discussed

 

7 hours ago, Kar3n said:

Ever cut yourself with a sharp knife? No?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It is virtually painless.

 

 

ill forgive the ignorance of the comment given that you have already proven yourself incoherent in terms of the neurobiology of pain...but to further educate you on the topic here

 

painpathway2.gif

 

See how it works? a very shallow but on the FINGERTIP might not be felt as much as elsewhere because of the epidermis...BUT THAT IS ALSO PERCEPTIVE....you should also know that ...Nociceptors are quite dense in this area THE SCIENCE IS CLEAR

 

But also

 

1 : THE tongue has no such protection, which further discounts your point

2: I'm still waiting for any evidence from you to illustrate any point you made ( SPOILER : You wont find any, because the neurobiology is very clear on how pain works, and its something you show no understanding of so far, so forgive me if I ignore the rest of your conjecture on the matter.

 

I understand how an unaware person can make unsubstantiated claims and cling to them as facts...just realise the facts are actually their in front of you for your eyes to see

 

 

6 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Please don't. 

 

Self-mutilation is a sign of mental instability - not spiritual attainment.

 

Show me where anyone claimed it a sign of attainment? No i repeatedly referred to them as VESSELS not PRACTITIONERS

 

Try reading my posts next time, if you can manage to do so you might actually be able to coherently discuss the topic rather than throw silly accusations around

 

But in any event, invocation (and evocation) are normal practices within many esoteric practices pertaining to spirituality..I am telling you that if you go here you will see this, and the key feature is that the altered state of consciousness facilitates the bypass of normal neurobiological pathways pertaining to pain, and the cognitive and perceptive mechanisms attached...AND THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO EXPLAIN THIS PHENOMENA as it is occurs in Phuket, Address the post and stop pretending I said things I did not

 

TLDR ; Its a sign of spiritual activity, not spiritual progress (Please dont make me repeat this again)

 

 

5 hours ago, Kar3n said:

I was just thinking...

 

That's a vegetarian festival?

 

For a bunch of vegetarians they sure seem to like the taste of blood.

 

Go read about the festival and understand the religious concepts and significance of the processes, instead of projecting biased sarcastic opinions onto it...its very clear what they are doing....better yet take my advice and go there....plenty of evidence there for anyone if they want it

 

 

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7 hours ago, Kar3n said:

Ever cut yourself with a sharp knife? No?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It is virtually painless.

 

its usually accompanied by an F bomb at the top of my lungs before it even registers I'm cut, if its a good one :lol:

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19 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

Show me where anyone claimed it a sign of attainment? No i repeatedly referred to them as VESSELS not PRACTITIONERS

 

Try reading my posts next time, if you can manage to do so you might actually be able to coherently discuss the topic rather than throw silly accusations around

 

What exactly does "vessel" mean to you?  

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30 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

 

What exactly does "vessel" mean to you?  

 

Ill draw from cambridges dictionary for you

 

a person who has a particular quality or who is used for a particular purpose

 

Note the underlined bolded text....that is exactly what I am referring to

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41 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

What exactly does "vessel" mean to you?  

 

 

8 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

Ill draw from cambridges dictionary for you

 

a person who has a particular quality or who is used for a particular purpose

 

Note the underlined bolded text....that is exactly what I am referring to

 

Used by what or whom? And to what purpose?

 

: jumping back a bit:

 

46 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

#4 invocation is a well understood practice across many " traditional " and esoteric arts 

 

Invocation being the practice leading to the individuals "manifesting the qualities" to be vessels of the divine? 

 

1 hour ago, pegasus1992 said:

Show me where anyone claimed it a sign of attainment? No i repeatedly referred to them as VESSELS not PRACTITIONERS

 

The above makes this look like you're just being a bit snippy at this point.

 

P.S. What is the purpose of the repeated ad hominems? (And straw men?)

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9 hours ago, Kar3n said:

Ever cut yourself with a sharp knife? No?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It is virtually painless.

 

Right I bought a thin metal  popcorn popper one with a crank in the handle.

 

It is red.

 

It is cheaply made. ( Later I discovered it makes the best popcorn ever and very swiftly!)

 

Between opening the box and putting the lid with sharp edges on I somehow cut my finger.

 

I did not even know it had happened until a fat red drop of blood landed on the shiny lid while showing my lady our new popper.

 

I exclaimed hey? Now where did that come from?!!!

 

At first I thought wow sloppy job painting they spattered the lid! 

 

Then saw it dripping from a sliced finger.

 

When I saw it then the feeling of the flesh being separated became evident but very little pain.

 

Not really interested in people slashing them selves up or eating glass and really would not care to see it. In my opinion they are immature and starved for recognition to the point of a mental and emotional bankruptcy. 

 

Is their some relevant point being made here with all that blade licking stupidity?

 

How does this relate to Mopai other than to associate it via a post and cast not only it but the one posting this in a bad light?

 

Honestly I never did get the whole John Chang Mo Pai issue anyway.

 

My take on it is who cares? let others believe what they will, do as they will and say what they want makes no difference to me. Call it science, call it trickery call it what you will. 

 

Since I never met John Chang and had so much as a cup of tea with him or any of his students, shrugs shoulders and says ok, if you say so, sure why not.

 

Serious question just why do people practice what JC taught? What is the purpose?

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15 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Right I bought a thin metal  popcorn popper one with a crank in the handle.

 

It is red.

 

It is cheaply made. ( Later I discovered it makes the best popcorn ever and very swiftly!)

 

Between opening the box and putting the lid with sharp edges on I somehow cut my finger.

 

I did not even know it had happened until a fat red drop of blood landed on the shiny lid while showing my lady our new popper.

 

I have seen this numerous times in a variety of circumstances where the common denominator is the sharpness of the instrument doing the cutting. 

 

I got a finger caught in one of those handheld weedeaters as a young teen. My reply was, "oops."

 

No vesseling needed..

 

15 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Serious question just why do people practice what JC taught? What is the purpose?

 

The more interesting question may be do they practice what JC taught?

 

And as general summaries have been laid out before, I'm just going to link to one:

 

 

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On 5/29/2019 at 11:44 PM, Kar3n said:

[...] I encourage you to read the insult policy, the founding principles as well as the terms and rules. All can be found here.

 

Giving this one more go. 

 

Please follow the link this time @pegasus1992

 

For your own sake if you like it here

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1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

 

Used by what or whom? And to what purpose?

 

: jumping back a bit:

 

 

Invocation being the practice leading to the individuals "manifesting the qualities" to be vessels of the divine? 

 

 

The above makes this look like you're just being a bit snippy at this point.

 

P.S. What is the purpose of the repeated ad hominems? (And straw men?)

 

Im done providing information and long winded posts for people not to respond to them

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Emperor_Gods_Festival

 

There,  feel free to read away, you'll get your answers

 

No ad hominems or straw men.....calling out ignorance to a point, fact or information is simply to illustrate ones lack of knowledge in a given subject....when this is demonstrated repeatedly, it is quite normal to state the point...I do not know what other way you want me to twist my language? By all means, what terminology would you prefer I use? I'm all ears (genuinely) 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

Im done providing information and long winded posts for people not to respond to them

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Emperor_Gods_Festival

 

There,  feel free to read away, you'll get your answers

 

The answers are as suspected. 

 

They summon their divine, and offer themselves as vessels - with only the 'pure' being allowed to do so. 

 

My question was more in reference to your apparently contradictory rebuttal than the festival itself. 

 

22 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

No ad hominems or straw men.....calling out ignorance to a point, fact or information is simply to illustrate ones lack of knowledge in a given subject....when this is demonstrated repeatedly, it is quite normal to state the point...I do not know what other way you want me to twist my language? By all means, what terminology would you prefer I use? I'm all ears (genuinely) 

 

I would honestly prefer if you did not make your arguments personal (for instance calling out what you believe to be personal ignorance), and discuss the subject without belittling the people sharing in the discussion with you. 

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45 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Right I bought a thin metal  popcorn popper one with a crank in the handle.

 

It is red.

 

It is cheaply made. ( Later I discovered it makes the best popcorn ever and very swiftly!)

 

Between opening the box and putting the lid with sharp edges on I somehow cut my finger.

 

I did not even know it had happened until a fat red drop of blood landed on the shiny lid while showing my lady our new popper.

 

I exclaimed hey? Now where did that come from?!!!

 

At first I thought wow sloppy job painting they spattered the lid! 

 

Then saw it dripping from a sliced finger.

 

When I saw it then the feeling of the flesh being separated became evident but very little pain.

 

Not really interested in people slashing them selves up or eating glass and really would not care to see it. In my opinion they are immature and starved for recognition to the point of a mental and emotional bankruptcy. 

 

Is their some relevant point being made here with all that blade licking stupidity?

 

How does this relate to Mopai other than to associate it via a post and cast not only it but the one posting this in a bad light?

 

Honestly I never did get the whole John Chang Mo Pai issue anyway.

 

My take on it is who cares? let others believe what they will, do as they will and say what they want makes no difference to me. Call it science, call it trickery call it what you will. 

 

Since I never met John Chang and had so much as a cup of tea with him or any of his students, shrugs shoulders and says ok, if you say so, sure why not.

 

Serious question just why do people practice what JC taught? What is the purpose?

 Regards cut....see below...this will explain to you why you did not feel it..you probably didnt penetrate the epidermis....and yes, perception and consciousness are linked to pain, i've stated that countless times over and over again.... you should note the tongue has no such protection.

 

The reasons for what they do are very understandable if you grasp certain concepts.....like I said im done writing big long posts....if you want to educate yourself and understand it by all means google is your friend

 

painpathway2.gif

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7 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

The answers are as suspected. 

 

They summon their divine, and offer themselves as vessels - with only the 'pure' being allowed to do so. 

 

My question was more in reference to your apparently contradictory rebuttal than the festival itself. 

 

 

I would honestly prefer if you did not make your arguments personal (for instance calling out what you believe to be personal ignorance), and discuss the subject without belittling the people sharing in the discussion with you. 

 

Elaborate on that if you would

 

 

Regards making arguments personal....there is nothing personal here, when a lack of awareness to something is shown, it is ignorance to the fact. This is not belittling....

 

I actually went out my way to explain the underpinnings of these things to those who didn't understand them so that they would no longer not understand them.

 

In fact, It would be much easier to throw around insults and belittle people than construct some of the replies I did...but I don't

 

Your perception of the situation is skewed...but I am happy to elaborate and explain

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20 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 Regards cut....see below...this will explain to you why you did not feel it..you probably didnt penetrate the epidermis....and yes, perception and consciousness are linked to pain, i've stated that countless times over and over again.... you should note the tongue has no such protection.

 

In third grade I had to get stitches just below an eye - an area they couldn't properly numb, and as I was a child the medical staff expressed intent to strap me to the bed. I gave my dad a look, and he told them they would not be restraining me. I laid perfectly still and unflinching as they sewed my face up - as a child.

 

How many people in the Western world have facial piercings these days? And how many of them would have been given anesthesia?

 

No miracles needed, although putting oneself in a trance like state would plausibly ease any reaction, and the perpetual head shaking mentioned in the article linked to would also mitigate both the individual perception of pain (how many people have you seen "shake out" an area of their bodies that hurt), and distract observers from recognizing the experience of pain in the shaking individuals.

 

In any case, I'm trying to sort out your point, and why you brought this into the discussion. 

 

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No ad hominems or straw men.....

 

On 6/4/2019 at 7:51 PM, pegasus1992 said:

Tested nobody, Confirmed nothing....yet speaks as if they are an authority....tries to belittle others abilities because you are most likely envious as pointed out by @GSmaster

 

There's critical thinking and then theirs downright stubbornness and ignorance....if you envision yourself falling into the former category, you should look a bit harder

 

Calling the person disagreeing with your position "tested nobody and confirmed nothing" fails under both ad hominem and strawman. You have focused on the individual, and made assertions about him. The focus is ad hominem, and the assertions are strawmen.

 

Then you attribute the emotion of "envious" to further dismiss his argument, instead of looking at and responding to the argument, and reference another individual in what appears to be a skewed call to authority. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

In third grade I had to get stitches just below an eye - an area they couldn't properly numb, and as I was a child the medical staff expressed intent to strap me to the bed. I gave my dad a look, and he told them they would not be restraining me. I laid perfectly still and unflinching as they sewed my face up - as a child.

 

How many people in the Western world have facial piercings these days? And how many of them would have been given anesthesia?

 

No miracles needed, although putting oneself in a trance like state would plausibly ease any reaction, and the perpetual head shaking mentioned in the article linked to would also mitigate both the individual perception of pain (how many people have you seen "shake out" an area of their bodies that hurt), and distract observers from recognizing the experience of pain in the shaking individual

 

In any case, I'm trying to sort out your point, and why you brought this into the discussion. 

 

 

I dont know why its going over your head, but every example you give is that pain is perceptive and linked to consciousness..further proving what i said as true

 

Also the area below the eye is another poor example given receptor density......and you had one injury...these are repeated, elongated to a far more sensitive area...try harder and better...also i have had worse injuries than what anyone has mentioned thus far..if personal experience actually meant anything here, id have brought it up...but it doesn't...and believe me i had one injury that was far worse than some of the stuff in the videos and pictures..two actually

 

To summarize, regardless of what you say...the science here is very well founded...your opinion is not...if you want to discuss this further steer away from the conjecture and positing personal opinions as facts.

 

The science is clear...perception pain and consciousness are intertwined...you need a shift in either perception or consciousness to override biological mechanisms...you cannot sit there and repeatedly mutilate yourself and not feel anything unless something has fundamentally changed......it is impossible or in the very rare cases, a neurological anomaly...and dozens of people having this happen at the same time rules that out...

 

If you want to see how this got into this thread...it started with the guy who tried to posit his opinion as fact and debunk someone with zero evidence....this was an exercise to explain that paranormal things do occur and are readily available to perceive if one wishes

 

Also head shaking would not mitigate it...go and examine the theory of pain, and then see different types of pain regarding the temporal nature (ie stimulus contingent and sustained)......you do not shake out gaping wounds...that might work with a bang to an elbow or something...but not in this case...nice try though

 

 

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1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

My question was more in reference to your apparently contradictory rebuttal than the festival itself. 

 

1 hour ago, pegasus1992 said:

Elaborate on that if you would

 

Ok, let's try this again..

 

You wrote the following in response to me:

 

4 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

Show me where anyone claimed it a sign of attainment? No i repeatedly referred to them as VESSELS not PRACTITIONERS

 

After having written this in response to V (in the same post as the above quote)

 

4 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

invocation is a well understood practice across many " traditional " and esoteric arts  (including daoism) your lack of recognition of this tells me you are either (a) hopelessly involved in some pseudo discipline or (b) telling more lies.....neither being true would surprise me at this point.

 

You're contradicting yourself, and pretty soon I'm going to walk away for a bit and give you some time to slow down..

 

Sometimes slowing down is good. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

 

Calling the person disagreeing with your position "tested nobody and confirmed nothing" fails under both ad hominem and strawman. You have focused on the individual, and made assertions about him. The focus is ad hominem, and the assertions are strawmen.

 

Then you attribute the emotion of "envious" to further dismiss his argument, instead of looking at and responding to the argument, and reference another individual in what appears to be a skewed call to authority. 

 

 

 

Specific to the fact, the person in question was asked at least a dozen times to provide ANY EVIDENCE whatsoever pertaining to the situation itself...the fact that every request led to no evidence and in fact no reply to the request leaves one with no option but to assume....the person has has every opportunity to provide it and further the discussion, rather they have chose to dance around the point continuously rather than get to it.

 

This is an assertion based on the responses provided and are CONTEXT SPECIFIC, not a conclusion jumped to....it is not a character attack...it is pertaining to the fact that this person has not tested John Chang, nor even met him, and is therefore in no position to make any claim about him. The individual in question did not test JC  nor his students ( ie.  tested nobody: A FACT) therefore is in no position to make any claim or confirmation ( confirmed nothing: ANOTHER FACT)

 

The envious matter is a derivative from another poster, because that is my conjecture on the overall situation...THE FACT that I said MOST LIKELY, but not THIS IS....is indicative of the fact that I am open to correction, therefore making no claim, whereby the reference to the other poster is not a skewed claim to authority, but rather a citation to where the ACTUAL claim came from

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2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Ok, let's try this again..

 

You wrote the following in response to me:

 

 

After having written this in response to V (in the same post as the above quote)

 

 

You're contradicting yourself, and pretty soon I'm going to walk away for a bit and give you some time to slow down..

 

Sometimes slowing down is good. 

 

 

 

These people are vessels because their aim is not spiritual attainment.....it is something else entirely

 

Those who do practice invocation in the esoteric arts, do so for attainment...there is a fundamental difference here

 

It is context specific.....and if you read  into the purpose of the festival you will see those who are the vessels do so for an entirely different reason.....

 

That is no contradiction, and it is not difficult to understand....stop trying to invent arguments please

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4 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

stop trying to invent arguments please

 

Dude, you're the one who brought an argument with another member from a thread where he apparently no longer wanted to respond to you, or failed to respond in your desired fashion, to this thread.

 

and I can't even work out what on earth this side tangent of yours actually has to do with the topic of this thread... 

 

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6 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

So, I do not need to study philosophy for any reason, because philosophy does not prove anything....SCIENCE PROVES THINGS

 

Science has proven that when you mix carbon disulfide and yellow phosphorus, once the liquid evaporates, this will ignite in the air.

 

Science has NOT proven that anyone can point at paper and have it burst into flames.

 

If you had study philosophy, you would know this. The philosophy it shows is "Showbiz".

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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5 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Science has proven that when you mix carbon disulfide and yellow phosphorus, once the liquid evaporates, this will ignite in the air.

 

Science has NOT proven that anyone can point at paper and have it burst into flames.

 

If you had study philosophy, you would know this. The philosophy it shows is "Showbiz".

 

 Okay we've seen it can  be faked. 


In your view true siddhis exist or not?

 

What are some true, real, not faked, feats of qigong you seen are possible?

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4 minutes ago, King Jade said:

In your view true siddhis exist or not?

 

What are some true, real, not faked, feats of qigong you seen are possible?

 

What people call "siddhis" is just the comparison of trained with untrained people.

 

Trained people gain result from training that untrained people do not usually have.

 

Only surprising or different for the untrained.

 

I see a lot in almost 50 years of study.

 

Note that we do not practice Qigong to do "feats". Just to develop functioning and humanity.

 

People who come to this from Media always looking for "feats" because that's what the media wants to show - a show.

 

I can do a media job on you and show and describe many things I see in those decades of study, and impress you.

 

I can make videos that show things.

 

That will just make ME a target of this idiocy about putting on a show for the ignorant.

 

And what will I gain?

 

Idiots and the weak will want power they don't now have. Boring me even here in this group.

 

I will do it when I can figure out a way around that audience. A place and context. Maybe through a university that is already studying this, so university can post it.

 

I go slow. Maybe because I study Chang Ming Shu, I dunno. After 50 yrs, just now in last few yrs starting to teach anyone.

 

I'll do some demonstrations soon, and hopefully in a context that is showing proof at same time, etc.

 

None of this discussion here is good reason, but it will happen.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

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34 minutes ago, King Jade said:

 Okay we've seen it can  be faked. 


In your view true siddhis exist or not?

 

What are some true, real, not faked, feats of qigong you seen are possible?

once a few years back, my coworker asked me well, what can you do?  so I held out my hand, totally white, and turned it red with blood for her in a few seconds time.   she gave me a funny look and said "you're weird" and walked away :lol:

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