Ah, it's the same old...

[Starjumper]

It makes you hyperaware of all the idiots out there in Taoland and the hopelessness of dealing with them. That's in the more advanced stages. It makes you really appreciate the non idiots though.

When one is enlightened there are no idiots.

 

That is true in a way. When a person is in the midst of an enlightenment experience then there is no judgment possible and therefore there are no idiots, everything is just Hunky Dorry. What happens after that depends on whether you ascribe to the fairytale Buddhist concept of enlightenment or the realistic Taoist one.

 

After the enlightenment experience wears off, which takes a day or two, then judgment returns, then idiots can and will appear. Do you assume I use the term idiots out of anger? I use the term idiots loosely, maybe you can appreciate that, maybe not, I can't wait.

 

There will always be idiots, that's humanity, sadly lost from the Garden of Eden, that's what the untrained mind is, after all, idiotic, insane, self destructive, it's unavoidable. It doesn't mean I'm mad at them, hell, I'm an idiot sometimes too, and it's only whenever I am thinking.

 

I can't wait

 

Maybe someday, if you're lucky, I'll describe the different stages of the enlightenment process here.

 

I assume when some minds are challanged by some of the more astounding elements of becoming "enlightened" human beings ...such effects as awakened consciousness... will predict that some minds will snap...

 

They all snap, some snap back though. I don't know which is best.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Starjumper7

[mYTHmAKER]

I agree with ya Taomeow...

 

I assume when some minds are challanged by some of the more astounding elements of becoming "enlightened" human beings ...such effects as awakened consciousness... will predict that some minds will snap...

but why avoid idiots -aren't we more amusing than the dull sage?

 

 

Sages are often taken for idiots. They prefer it that way.

 

When one is enlightened there are no idiots.

That is true in a way. When a person is in the midst of an enlightenment experience then there is no judgment possible and therefore there are no idiots, everything is just Hunky Dorry. What happens after that depends on whether you ascribe to the fairytale Buddhist concept of enlightenment or the realistic Taoist one.

 

After the enlightenment experience wears off, which takes a day or two, then judgment returns, then idiots can and will appear. Do you assume I use the term idiots out of anger? I use the term idiots loosely, maybe you can appreciate that, maybe not, I can't wait.

 

There will always be idiots, that's humanity, sadly lost from the Garden of Eden, that's what the untrained mind is, after all, idiotic, insane, self destructive, it's unavoidable. It doesn't mean I'm mad at them, hell, I'm an idiot sometimes too, and it's only whenever I am thinking.

Maybe someday, if you're lucky, I'll describe the different stages of the enlightenment process here.

They all snap, some snap back though. I don't know which is best.

 

You gotta be kidding.

 

OK I'll bite just for the fun of it

 

Prove that I am not enlightened.

 

 

You just did!

 

 

 

 

 

Aren't we confusing enlightenment with moments, hours, days etc of clarity of being in that state.

When i use the term or hear the term i think of the clarity as having taken - it's part of you or you

are part of it.

 

I've had my moments. This is not one of them

Edited March 2, 2008 by mYTHmAKER

[steve]

I've had my moments. This is not one of them

Hmm, don't be so sure...

What did the sage say to the idiot?

........

........

........

I love you!

[mYTHmAKER]

Hmm, don't be so sure...

What did the sage say to the idiot?

........

........

........

I love you!

 

 

Hey you calling me an idiot ?

It's a good thing I'm having a second of enlightenment or I'd be upset.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow,

 

I am confused. You mention two experiences of enlightenment. Would you go into more detail? Its just a word, so I am interested in what inspires you to use it.

 

It might help me to understand where you are coming from when you speak of the realities revealed by enlightenment. Are you referring to your ongoing experience post-enlightenment, or an aspect of the experience itself?

 

...

 

Some of us thrive on intensity. And it is what we are after all. Its not like we can escape it, even if we don't pay attention. The attention appears to transform as well.

 

OK, what I'm referring to is a state of being in which experiences are available that are not available in a "normal human" state and that are not illusory however, i.e. not a function of personal-only perceptions but are, rather, an aspect of some "universal truth" being revealed. The difference between that state and any fleeting moment of clarity is, first and foremost, the fact that it is "forever" -- once you've had this happen, you never lose it. What may (and will) change is how you subjectively react to this state. Intensity may decrease OR increase, you may learn how to "handle" your new state or you may fail at it miserably, it will change somehow, the what-you-do-with-it, but the truth itself -- that will never change, never disappear. It's an absolute, at least till you shed your here-now life for whatever comes next (provided anything does) -- it's not "gone" at any subsequent moment of your life, it's for keeps. Another peculiarity is that it's something that you could show to another human being by having him or her replicate exactly the steps you've taken towards this experience: they would get exactly the same results as you did.

 

So, the first experience gave me a way to see all people in their personal developmental context, not "now" but "since birth till now." And not in a step-by-step process but instantly. One look and I know everything that happened to them. Not "everything" in the sense of every mundane detail -- I wouldn't know where they bought their groceries last Friday -- but everything that shaped them into who they presently are -- this, I would know instantly. Double-checked it many times. Accuracy close to one hundred percent.

 

The world became unlivable. Compassion was tearing my heart apart, I couldn't function. I spent over a year learning to shut and lock the door of perception that made it all visible. So now it's closed and locked. But I still have the key. Can open it anytime I want. The thing is, it's "never again" that I want it open.

 

Second experience. A mathematical kind of enlightenment that brought supreme bliss. Knowledge of the very nature of light, of its innermost secrets. Bliss lasted a few months uninterrupted. I used to have to hide from people because I was beaming with happiness and they found it disturbing, did you know that people can't handle someone's real, non-illusory happiness that is not in hiding, that reveals itself openly, to a much much greater extent than they can't handle others' misery? I used to pretend I go jogging or something so as to be alone and just let my face do what it wanted to do at all times -- ignite with passionate bliss. While no one was looking, I could let it.

 

The world became unlivable once again.

 

I closed it, locked it, I still have the key. I dare not open that door while there's still so much misery in the world. Maybe someday...

 

Did I manage to make some sense to you?

[steve]

Hey you calling me an idiot ?

Of course not, just making a mediocre joke... more directed at others, truth be told...

It's a good thing I'm having a second of enlightenment or I'd be upset.

I'd better get the hell out of here before it wears off!!

 

.........edited for brevity.........

Did I manage to make some sense to you?

Thanks for sharing that, Taomeow. I enjoyed your discussion. I've had a similar experience regarding the intensity of the initial change, followed by a lessening of the intensity accompanied by a permanent alteration in one's understanding of things or relationship to things. The intensity can be dialed up and down for me to a degree but you appear to be more sensitive than I (gender perhaps?)

 

I'm interested in the fact that you feel as though you could lead anyone through the same specific steps and expect, predictably, a similar outcome. Have you done this? My experience has been that the outcome is more dependent on where any given individual is than on what specific methods are used. Even my shifu says that he can make no guarantees of success with the Dao meditation - different individuals react differently.

[Todd]

 

Did I manage to make some sense to you?

 

 

Yes. Thank you for sharing.

 

I am finding it difficult to reply. In one sense, the experiences that you share are more intense than any that I have had. In another sense, I can relate to a fundamental shift in perception as the result of contact with truth. This shift is not shared by most others, and so they do not act from it, and it can be difficult to be in a world where this sort of dissonance between my perception and other's actions is pretty much constant. However, my perception is not an ability. It is a force that moves through me, that I can choose to ignore (and suffer) or acknowledge (and transform).

 

Is this the force that led to your abilities? Is that force alive within you now?

 

Is there anything wrong with it?

 

I can understand not trusting it when it did not lead to particularly pleasant outcomes. I had a similar experience when I was younger. I didn't know what was happening. There was awe (which is like joy and bliss, but maybe a bit quieter) and a movement to transform, but I had skipped ahead of the world, and it wouldn't follow me. I slowly began to doubt myself, which may have been for the better, because I was pretty screwed up despite a deep perception. Right now, I am in a process of returning my attention to this force. I am forced into it.

 

There is a cool quote from Kafka, "You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid." I am exploring whether holding back from the dissonance between my perception and other's actions might be a suffering that I can avoid. Perhaps this holding back creates the dissonance. Perhaps letting the suffering into my heart and letting my heart break will allow truly effective compassion.

 

Its dangerous, but I'm running out of viable options. It doesn't seem to want to wait much longer. Who knows though? I might feel differently when I can I feel it actually breaking.

 

 

PS

Here is another quote from Kafka... found it while use "Search" to find the other one:

 

"We too must suffer all the suffering around us. We all have not one body, but we have one way of growing, and this leads us through all anguish, whether in this or in that form. Just as the child develops through all the stages of life right into old age and to death (and fundamentally to the earlier stage the later one seems out of reach, in relation both to desire and to fear), so also do we develop (no less deeply bound up with mankind than with ourselves) through all the sufferings of this world. There is no room for justice in this context, but neither is there any room either for fear of suffering or for the interpretation of suffering as a merit."

 

Sorry to throw so many quotes at you.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Todd

[steve]

I am exploring whether holding back from the dissonance between my perception and other's actions might be a suffering that I can avoid. Perhaps this holding back creates the dissonance. Perhaps letting the suffering into my heart and letting my heart break will allow truly effective compassion.

 

Its dangerous, but I'm running out of viable options. It doesn't seem to want to wait much longer. Who knows though? I might feel differently when I can I feel it actually breaking.

I am currently working on remaining present with pain. I too have practiced avoidance, quite expertly I might add, to the point of being dissociated from the emotions I choose to avoid. At first that seems advantageous as I felt 'better' or 'calmer'. But this is only superficial and eventually must be faced. This is where meditation has really helped me - by exposing this tendency to avoid. This has a significant impact on relationships of all kinds.

Pain only becomes suffering when one struggles against it. To sit with it, be with it, explore it very deeply, at every level is a valuable exercise, I'm learning. It quite readily tends to become less powerful. Also, it influences behavior less since one can be open to it and then behave mindfully rather than based on conditioning.

[Todd]

Meditation is a great tool. I know what you are talking about. My relationship to pain changed significantly when I decided to finally sit through whatever pain arose, even if I fainted (assuming that my knees were grounded and I wasn't destroying them!). Hagar's post awhile back in the "Is standing meditation overrated?" thread was the straw that broke the camel's back on that one. (Thanks Hagar!)

 

Right now, I am exploring not meditating, since I am curious how much of my meditation was inspired by grasping. Its kind've turning things around. Before I meditated to explore my reaction to pain, and to all of the other impulses, now I don't meditate to explore my reaction to pain, and all of the other impulses. I like meditating much more than not meditating, so I am exploring my grasping onto meditating and its effects. What remains?

 

Its kind've a meditation.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Todd

[mYTHmAKER]

Another peculiarity is that it's something that you could show to another human being by having him or her replicate exactly the steps you've taken towards this experience: they would get exactly the same results as you did.

 

I don't think this is the case. One can be given all the teacher has to offer but the student has to be able to receive it. Students stage of evolution etc.

 

As to your experiences it sounds to me as though you went through stages of consciousness but hadn't arrived

at the stage of being fully enlightened.

I say sounds like because I am not nor have i ever been fully enlightened

Anyway powerful and frightening experiences.Thanks for sharing.

Have you ever read Play of Consciousness by Swami Muktananda?

[steve]

Meditation is a great tool. I know what you are talking about. My relationship to pain changed significantly when I decided to finally sit through whatever pain arose, even if I fainted (assuming that my knees were grounded and I wasn't destroying them!). Hagar's post awhile back in the "Is standing meditation overrated?" thread was the straw that broke the camel's back on that one. (Thanks Hagar!)

 

Right now, I am exploring not meditating, since I am curious how much of my meditation was inspired by grasping. Its kind've turning things around. Before I meditated to explore my reaction to pain, and to all of the other impulses, now I don't meditate to explore my reaction to pain, and all of the other impulses. I like meditating much more than not meditating, so I am exploring my grasping onto meditating and its effects. What remains?

 

Its kind've a meditation.

Sorry for the ambiguity. I was referring to emotional pain. The pain of conflict and heartbreak that you were describing, not physical pain...

[Todd]

Sorry for the ambiguity. I was referring to emotional pain. The pain of conflict and heartbreak that you were describing, not physical pain...

 

 

Aren't they similar? Certainly, meditation would be boring if all that came up were physical pain. I was more referring to allowing a pain to build past the breaking point.

 

A smarter thing to do is to let the pain flow through before it gets to that point, but I'm not always that smart. And we have areas of resistance that we don't know we have until pain makes them obvious.

 

Are you trying to tell me to meditate?

[Starjumper]

.......... but hadn't arrived at the stage of being fully enlightened.

 

 

I say sounds like because I am not nor have i ever been fully enlightened

 

There's no such thing as fully enlightened. The initial enlightenment experience (greater emotional bliss in addition to other attributes) ignites an alchemical process. This process may be called enlightenment in Buddhism but in Taoism, which is more realistic, it's called wisdom accumulation or wisdom cultivation and is designated by different levels of the label immortal at it's higher levels. It's a process which never ends as long as we are alive. There are no absolutes and there's no such thing as fully enlightened ... except possibly for the experience itself, you could make a case for that being a fully enlightened state, but it's a temporary condition.

 

You gotta be kidding.

 

Nope, but thanks for the detailed explanation as to why you said it.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Starjumper7

[mYTHmAKER]

There's no such thing as fully enlightened. The initial enlightenment experience (greater emotional bliss in addition to other attributes) ignites an alchemical process. This process may be called enlightenment in Buddhism but in Taoism, which is more realistic, it's called wisdom accumulation or wisdom cultivation and is designated by different levels of the label immortal at it's higher levels. It's a process which never ends as long as we are alive. There are no absolutes and there's no such thing as fully enlightened ... except possibly for the experience itself, you could make a case for that being a fully enlightened state, but it's a temporary condition.

Nope, but thanks for the detailed explanation as to why you said it.

 

Ya got me. We do keep enlightening as we go. What i meant by fully enlightened was the point at which you don't go back - you remain in this state - you do go forward.

It's really so hard to speak about something that one is ignorant about. Don't you agree?

A bit like Woody Allen explaining baseball to Martians.

 

As far as one philosophy - religion - path being better than another well i'm not so sure about that.

One path may suit an individual more than another but that doesn't make it better.

[林愛偉]

There's no such thing as fully enlightened. The initial enlightenment experience (greater emotional bliss in addition to other attributes) ignites an alchemical process. This process may be called enlightenment in Buddhism but in Taoism, which is more realistic, it's called wisdom accumulation or wisdom cultivation and is designated by different levels of the label immortal at it's higher levels. It's a process which never ends as long as we are alive. There are no absolutes and there's no such thing as fully enlightened ... except possibly for the experience itself, you could make a case for that being a fully enlightened state, but it's a temporary condition.

Nope, but thanks for the detailed explanation as to why you said it.

 

 

Brother, don't start pointing fingers at what is more realistic than the other. Plain and simple, what is sought to be real is still a view. And thus, it is false.

 

Sorry, but Daoism only gets so far, especially when only getting it from books from people looking to make a quick buck. Out here, the Daoisits that are still around, sit and meditate, and don't bother with which school is better. They equally respect eachother, because Buddhist or Daoist, the only thing unrealistic is the mind. Cultivators of the way realize this and utilize methods, not ego and arrogance.

 

It is best to correct this view before others start on the arrogant Daoist bandwagon, because it sells really fast. Seriously, its unfortunate, but there is a market for Daoist practices out there... when there is a market rest assured practices get watered down and views are sold. Don't believe every thing you read on Buddhism and Daoism. Cultivate.

 

So with Daoist cultivation, it is great, yet at a point one has to purify the Heart/Mind, or they will just get stuck where they are, or turn into demons.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited March 3, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Taomeow]

 

I'm interested in the fact that you feel as though you could lead anyone through the same specific steps and expect, predictably, a similar outcome. Have you done this? My experience has been that the outcome is more dependent on where any given individual is than on what specific methods are used. Even my shifu says that he can make no guarantees of success with the Dao meditation - different individuals react differently.

 

I've done this, yes. With the first happening, not the second one. It's true that people will start out from different places (not in the sense "more vs. less advanced," just different) -- so you simply have to phase in time , the amount of time it will take them to "get there." And, yes, some people will "run out of time" before they get there. But the process itself is a universal one, it's not "just me." Suppose two people are going to read a book -- one is a dyslexic first-grader who might take a year to read it, another one a speed reader who will finish it in two hours. They will never be on the same page while they're reading, but if you give each of them as much time as he or she requires, the outcome will be that they both will have read the same book.

 

My process flipped open one of the "universal human" books, not buddhist or taoist or mayan but human... so that's why I would expect everyone who's human for whom it would open to read pretty much what I did.

But of course the time and style of "getting there" will be much individualized. I showed one of the very preliminary, initial procedures to a highly intellectual but rather messed-up young man at one point, a philosophy/psychology major with a history of mental illness as an unfortunate outcome of an LSD overdose. So, well, he was coming from a background quite different from mine, and the very first step got quite differently processed. That initial procedure -- when I did it myself it took a couple of months to shift my perceptions sufficiently for me to start having trouble keeping track of the "ordinary world." For him, it was almost instantaneous. He saw the world on certain different terms within, like, fifteen minutes. He became excited, elated, agitated, and restless. Rushed out to see what he could see with his new vision. Came back two hours later, said he won't "go there" again because he nearly killed a pedestrian while driving, avoided several more potentially serious accidents only by a miracle of god, and realized within the next few minutes that it will all spin out of control if he doesn't put a lid on it right away. So... he didn't get where I got, but the beginning stages were identical, only in a different tempo.

[Taomeow]

As to your experiences it sounds to me as though you went through stages of consciousness but hadn't arrived

at the stage of being fully enlightened.

I say sounds like because I am not nor have i ever been fully enlightened

Anyway powerful and frightening experiences.Thanks for sharing.

Have you ever read Play of Consciousness by Swami Muktananda?

Yes, I've read it! Holy shit. (Remember the episode with a holy man smearing shit all over himself? ) Well, I didn't pick hinduism or buddhism for a reason. (Or, rather, they didn't pick me.) One can ooze puddles of sheer weirdness in the Hindu tradition and everybody will understand what's going on, the whole deal is expected to be what it is at its outer extremes -- raw, wild, closer to primordial chaos than to anything human -- and the culture accepts it somehow. Imagine Muktananda having a nine-to-five job in the middle of it all! and traffic jams and cops and all that jazz...

Taoism is, far as I'm concerned, a healthy compromise between the imperatives of living in the society (cultivating life) and living in harmony with primordial forces (cultivating essence), raw and spontaneous energies of the world. Hinduism goes all out into the inhuman realms, on some cosmic tangent of devotion to pure alienation (yes, despite all declarations to the contrary -- if you don't live like a human, that's alienation -- regardless of what you say, think, or feel.)

 

So, "fully enlightened" might actually mean "fully alienated from fellow humans," like that master Muktananda admired as his spiritual superior who sat naked in a corner of his hut playing with his excrements. It is a tricky spiritual task to know where to stop -- one of the reasons I absolutely and unequivocally despise "modern science" which I'm expected to admire because it "can do so much" is precisely its propensity to do things "just because it can," for no other good reason, to have no brakes, to never know how to stop, to never think twice before causing something irreversible to happen.

[Taomeow]

I am finding it difficult to reply. In one sense, the experiences that you share are more intense than any that I have had. In another sense, I can relate to a fundamental shift in perception as the result of contact with truth. This shift is not shared by most others, and so they do not act from it, and it can be difficult to be in a world where this sort of dissonance between my perception and other's actions is pretty much constant. However, my perception is not an ability. It is a force that moves through me, that I can choose to ignore (and suffer) or acknowledge (and transform).

 

Is this the force that led to your abilities? Is that force alive within you now?

 

Is there anything wrong with it?

 

I can understand not trusting it when it did not lead to particularly pleasant outcomes. I had a similar experience when I was younger. I didn't know what was happening. There was awe (which is like joy and bliss, but maybe a bit quieter) and a movement to transform, but I had skipped ahead of the world, and it wouldn't follow me. I slowly began to doubt myself, which may have been for the better, because I was pretty screwed up despite a deep perception. Right now, I am in a process of returning my attention to this force. I am forced into it.

 

Is it a force or an ability? It's a skill to unleash a force that causes an ability. It's like riding a bicycle... Like that much-quoted net from the Yuan-Dao that you use to catch fish -- once the fish is caught, tne net is forgotten. Once the skill has "caught" the "force," the skill is forgotten, and for a while you're at the mercy of the force -- and then hopefully you develop the ability to harness it. In the first process, I did. In the second, I caught something so big that I can't pull it out "all the way" because I feel if I try to it's gonna swing its tail and sink my boat -- or at least that's what its behavior has been so far. A wise man or woman goes fishing for herring, brings back herring. I went fishing for herring and accidentally caught a whale... so now what?.. Is it alive? You betcha. Can it kill me if I make a wrong move? Feels like it. So... It's there, I'm here, I don't know what comes next. I haven't "forgotten" the net but I'm not yanking...

 

So, Todd, with your own force that you can't resist for much longer -- I don't have a proven strategy that I could share, all I can tell you is, if it's a net full of herring, go for it, but if it's a whale... maybe cut it before it's too late, cut your losses... ...or maybe not???

[witch]

Hmm.... I know how to do endarkenment. I think it's a girl thing, and, as you say, enlightenment is a boy thing. I owe you. I've forgotten how to do the basic daily life things I knew so easily at seventeen, and you have helped me tremendously in getting my basic health back. I know you have a master and I'm certainly not an expert at this sort of thing, but I might be able to swap some tips.

 

You said you had children. How did you give birth?

[Stigweard]

I think it's a girl thing, and, as you say, enlightenment is a boy thing.

 

Do you really think so?

[xenolith]

I went fishing for herring and accidentally caught a whale...

...I've used the same analogy...to describe the same thing.

 

Hang on dear Meow! A loose grip is best

[Taomeow]

Hmm.... I know how to do endarkenment. I think it's a girl thing, and, as you say, enlightenment is a boy thing. I owe you. I've forgotten how to do the basic daily life things I knew so easily at seventeen, and you have helped me tremendously in getting my basic health back. I know you have a master and I'm certainly not an expert at this sort of thing, but I might be able to swap some tips.

 

You said you had children. How did you give birth?

So glad you could benefit from some "taomeow know-how."

 

I gave birth to full term twins naturally (in Russia, they didn't go apeshit with all the astounding hi-tech opportunities to prevent it from happening... backward country, you know.) But if it's anything that has to do with anything personal, it's better off on PM -- yin doesn't really fare well when it's on the surface in full view -- a situation that immediately flips it over into yang!

 

...I've used the same analogy...to describe the same thing.

 

Hang on dear Meow! A loose grip is best

Thanks, Xeno! I guess we all fish in the same ocean, so sometimes we might catch evolutionally related species of sea monsters!

 

A loose grip... reminds me of something... oh, a taiji arm position tip I remember from somewhere: as though you're holding two hot buns in your armpits, not too loosely, not too tightly...

Edited March 4, 2008 by Taomeow

[Starjumper]

Ya got me. We do keep enlightening as we go. What i meant by fully enlightened was the point at which you don't go back - you remain in this state - you do go forward.

 

I see, well that sounds reasonable, except I would say that the going forward is more of a trend which contains it's little ups and downs. The Way throws curve balls at you, the farther you get, the nastier the curve balls are - therefore - ups and downs yes, but the trend is forward. However, in Taoism, which, like I said, is more realistic, it's called wisdom rather than being enlightened. Me, being a Taoist and all, and this, being a purported Taoism message board and all, I feel it is important to point out these differences in terminology.

 

As far as one philosophy - religion - path being better than another well i'm not so sure about that.

One path may suit an individual more than another but that doesn't make it better.

 

Well I'm sure, the path of words and thoughts and beliefs, (which I call religion) is the work of the devil Most Western religions and the fundamentalist sects of the Eastern religions all like that, and I'm pretty opinionated, aint I? Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhism are two fundamentalist sects that come to mind.

 

If we're talking about enlightenment, which I never cared about, either before or after it happened, then as far as practices go some are much better than others, yes they are, if by better we mean they have a high percentage of students who experience enlightenment and they do it rather fast. After I had been with my teacher for about half a year he predicted it would take about five years (from start) to experience enlightenment. I know that due to the mood here most will assume he was trying to sell me a bill of goods, isn't that right, Lin? A couple of weeks later he said he thought it would take ten years instead of five because there are so many distractions in modern life. However, he was right the first time.

 

I have a pretty good idea precisely what kinds of practices is most likely to have a high enlightenment ratio. They exist in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism, but they are quite rare, and it's the path of the sorcerer that I am referring to. Don't worry, I know I'm prejudiced and I like myself anyway.

 

Brother, don't start pointing fingers at what is more realistic than the other. Plain and simple, what is sought to be real is still a view. And thus, it is false.

 

Sorry, but Daoism only gets so far, especially when only getting it from books from people looking to make a quick buck. Out here, the Daoisits that are still around, sit and meditate, and don't bother with which school is better. They equally respect eachother, because Buddhist or Daoist, the only thing unrealistic is the mind. Cultivators of the way realize this and utilize methods, not ego and arrogance.

 

It is best to correct this view before others start on the arrogant Daoist bandwagon, because it sells really fast. Seriously, its unfortunate, but there is a market for Daoist practices out there... when there is a market rest assured practices get watered down and views are sold. Don't believe every thing you read on Buddhism and Daoism. Cultivate.

 

So with Daoist cultivation, it is great, yet at a point one has to purify the Heart/Mind, or they will just get stuck where they are, or turn into demons.

 

I appreciate where you are coming from and I appreciate your crusade, it is good, however you are assuming things about me which miss the mark, probably out of habit from talking to too many Bozos. I know, I've been on the same crusade too, still am maybe =)

Edited March 4, 2008 by Starjumper7

[林愛偉]

.

I appreciate where you are coming from and I appreciate your crusade, it is good, however you are assuming things about me which miss the mark, probably out of habit from talking to too many Bozos. I know, I've been on the same crusade too, still am maybe =)

 

 

Peace

 

Lin

Edited March 5, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Buddy]

"I have a pretty good idea precisely what kinds of practices is most likely to have a high enlightenment ratio. They exist in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism, but they are quite rare, and it's the path of the sorcerer that I am referring to. Don't worry, I know I'm prejudiced and I like myself anyway."

 

You have a pretty good idea? What from books? Which guru, rinpoche, or pandit did you study with? I cannot but say you highly amuse by your alleged claims of "enlightenment." The same for your concubine.

 

Only on the internet can someone make such boldface nonsensical claims.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Buddy