What else is there to do, after being able to meditate on emptiness?

[Starjumper]

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

I dare not watch this one:

 

My mother will cane me.

 

At your age your mother is watching over you at 4AM with a cane?  Lucky you.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, Lima.  I'm sure you didn't watch it.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

7 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Does Buddhism, or do Asians, talk in terms of 'sublunary desires' too? I thought it's a purely Occidental concept.

 

 

That's how I was taught to sit in Zazen. And that's the practice of a Buddhist school (although influenced by Daoism).

 

 

'sublunary desires' just meaning earthly desires in English. 

 

Chan is very infused with Taoism Travailing to japan it became known as Zen. Void is an important teaching.

 

 The void also contains.....Cranial Nerves, elephants, some dancing and also dream state stuff that are empty of meaning. What we attach ourselves to becomes full of even more meaning and stuff, it is amazing.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Wu Ming Jen

[Limahong]

53 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

At your age your mother is watching over you at 4AM with a cane?

 

Yes Steve - from up there.

 

She is still alive (at least biologically) in me with this message:

 

 

- Anand

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, Lima.  I'm sure you didn't watch it.

 

Good morning Dada-da,

 

Thanks for your belief.

That is  a great relief.

Let me be brief.

I'm not in grief.

 

When Steve tempted me with - One night in Bangkok,

Mom sent me this:

 

Followed by this -

 

 

On the other hand - I'm sure you have watched it many times.

You are still watching right now - right?

 

- LimA

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

'sublunary desires' just meaning earthly desires in English. 

 

Okay, got it.

 

Interesting terminology though, which obviously goes back to the old Aristotelian natural philosophy. According to it, things below the sphere of the moon  (read: earthly things) were tainted, to one degree or another. Only what existed in the celestial world above it was absolutely pure and perfect.

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

sublunary

 

Hi Wu Ming Jen,

 

sublunary => sub-luna-ry => subnormal-lunatic-cry => 

 

 

Don't submit reply please.

 

Thank you.

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

Well, I have to give you credit for hanging in here with me and not taking anything I respond with as personal. 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

in a dream my mind has created the perception of what i label a tree. in waking my mind has created the perception of what i label a tree. both is just green and brown visual perception. perception, the creation of mind, dream.

if you add an thought into the mix (tree, no one else can see it, everyone can see it) then you just add another (mental) perception 

what is reality other than the totality of perceptions? look at the word perception as a noun, with a Capital n. Perception.

Okay.  In your dream you walk into a tree.  When you wake up you have no pain from the encounter.  During aware consciousness you walk into a tree and you will experience pain, maybe even a bloody nose.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

the butterfly (mind/spirit/emptiness/true self) dreams (creates) of being human (perceptions, in this case the experience of being a human)

I have no idea whether or not a butterfly dreams.  I doubt it even though we know that mammals other than humans do dream.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

i'm not saying the materialistic worldview is wrong. i'm saying it is a way of looking from the perspective of a thought construct, which in this case is the modern scientific set of beliefs. 

Isn't it great how much latitude and longitude our thinking mind is allowed?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

i'm pointing at the possibility of switching the perspective to the substance of every possible perspective and looking from that perspective within all perspectives. and from there a philosophy is seen as nothing but a relative perspective

Everything is relative.  But I will suggest that if one's philosophy does not reflect reality as our feed our brain information then we should consider a different philosophy.

 

If one's philosophy includes levitation and magic carpet riding I would suggest that one should try before buying.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

what is the difference between a sculpture made of clay, and a ball of clay?

to say the sculpture is/portrays/is shaped in the form of a human or is an expression of a human mind - is an interpretation. if i close my eyes and smell and touch both, i come to the conclusion that both are the same. clay

(isn't a ball, or openness, just another shape?)

Yes, our brain determines what shape the clay is in.  A ball?  A beautiful woman?  There really is a difference.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

huh? no. i used the word substance synonymous with emptiness. and i agreed upon your view that silence/unshaped substance is emptiness, but added that shaped substance is also emptiness

don't get hung up on the empty part in emptines. it is just a western translation

But it is a Buddhist concept, not a Taoist concept.  Emptiness in Daoism refers to the utility of what is empty - not that the item itself is empty of significance.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

i agree with your understanding

Thanks.  (That was easy to respond to.)

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

i said -wu wei, to me, means emptiness in action-. you disagreed. then i introduced the word substance and said i mean the same as emptiness with it. whereupon u said unshaped substance means the same as wu. which made me think of the phrase wu wei: action through non-action ---> action through emptiness --> emptiness in action

Seems it is you who are hung up on the concept of emptiness.  Hehehe.

 

Empty of what?  Action empty of intent.  That means living spontaneously.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

i don't know any buddhists personally, but i tend to agree. i think the concept of emptiness is a buddhist device to create a certain mindset/perspective from which it is easier to actually touch emptiness, to redirect attention in the direction of... 

It is my understanding that in Buddhist, the concept of emptiness is a support for the reduction of suffering.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

back to elephants...

Elephants have ears.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

i think there are 2 ways of using words. you can use the word elephant to point at the mental image/concept which tries to describe an elephant, and you can use the word to point at the actual elephant

Agree.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

if you have an elephant in your garden and think elephant, it is unlikely you will look at the mental image of an elephant instead of looking at the elephant. if you don't have an elephant in your garden and think elephant you will likely look at the mental image of an elephant

Okay.  Sure, that generally how our brain works.

 

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

i'm trying to describe the elephant in my garden. it's not a buddhist elephant, not a taoist elephant. just an elephant

 

 

But if I had never seen an elephant or seen a picture of an elephant I would have a very difficult time imagining what an elephant was until you started describing it.  And you description would have to be with words that I can imagine physical reality against else I might think that the elephant you have in your garden looks like a porcupine.

 

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, Wuschel said:

i'm pointing at the possibility of switching the perspective to the substance of every possible perspective and looking from that perspective within all perspectives. and from there a philosophy is seen as nothing but a relative perspective

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

Besides 'perspective' can I add 'perception'?

 

I like to be believe that broadly in Life I am in the domain of Taoism as a philosophy - but my perceptions from everyday living may shift.

 

I am brought up in a Buddhist family and sometimes my perceptions move from Taoist to Buddhist. I have no problems with this marriage.

 

 

 

 

- LimA

[Rocky Lionmouth]

How could a mind create the perception of a tree? I mean unless they were hallucinating? Sensory input and the mode of perception (to a person a regular domestic cat has fur and it feels and smells so and so) are limited to our hardware and firmware, sure. The world looks like it does and sounds like it does to us in a specific way because of our setup and individual variations but the solipsist and/or nihilist interpretation just doesnt ring with me at all.

 

There’d still be someone there experiencing that created perception of a tree and that tree is deemed as such because it fits the generalized idea of a tree in that, albeit hallucinating, mind.

 

Like @Limahong picture says:

Change your perception of things [...]

 

Its not so much the PERCEPTION thats the important bit, its rater like

 

Change YOUR perception of THINGS […] etc etc because you as the active agent in the mix play a significant role. 

 

Emptiness is the preparatory resting stage, nothing and no-thing and wind moves, flag moves. Sure, MIND moves and knock over quarreling monks but dont get caught in the illusion of everything in our perception and sensory experience to be the proverbial pointing finger. (You know, to the moon?)

 

Theres this other Zen-deforestation tale that recounts the misfortune of a brat who was an impostor to this Zen-lumberjack who explained Satori by raising one finger. That Zen brute chopped the kids finger off and then he was enlightened. I mean the kid. He lost a finger but attained One Finger Shooting Star realization.

I’m not saying mutilation helps but there is only so much staring and intellectualizing you can do before the observer will not stand to be observed and makes a triple left turn and is suddenly looking at intellectual concepts again, using words to delineate and exclusive induction to say ”this yes but this no.”

 

I use martial arts training to keep that monkey tired and distracted.

[Limahong]

23 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Porcupine

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

Thanks to you and Marblehead, my perception has changed from an elephant to a porcupine.

 

But I am very sure that I do not like to have either to be in my garden.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

10 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

I use martial arts training to keep that monkey tired and distracted.

 

Hi Rocky Lionmouth,

 

"Because he is speaking like a lion... loud and dominant but in a good way."

 

From elephant => porcupine => monkey => lion.

 

Next?

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

47 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Rocky Lionmouth,

 

"Because he is speaking like a lion... loud and dominant but in a good way."

 

From elephant => porcupine => monkey => lion.

 

Next?

 

- LimA

The cougar is always hiding somewhere, ready to pounce at any opportunity.

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The cougar is always hiding somewhere, ready to pounce at any opportunity.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

 

 

A cougar personality is rooted in stillness?

 

Such a personality has Buddhist or Taoist roots?

 

- LimA

Edited July 3, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, Limahong said:

A cougar personality is rooted in stillness?

 

Such a personality has Buddhist or Taoist roots?

Yes, stillness is the natural state for all cats as far as I know.

 

They have a lot of Tao but I think there is some Buddhist in there too.  That likely came from the Shaolin temples.

 

[Limahong]

43 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

... stillness is the natural state for all cats as far as I know.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Stillness - more in:

 

(a) Tommy or Tabby?

 

(b) Tabby Jr. or Tabby Sr.?

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

All I know for sure is that if you call a cougar a pussy you have just messed up big time.

 

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

... you have just messed up big time.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Sorry - I didn't know.

 

I will keep still and silent.

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

BTW  My Spirit animal in Native American spirituality is the cougar.

 

[Limahong]

28 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

My Spirit animal in Native American spirituality is the cougar.

 

 

- Anonymous

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Marbs, i think you just won the internet.

[Marblehead]

19 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Marbs, i think you just won the internet.

Gave me belly laughs.  Thanks.

 

[Limahong]

19 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Marbs, i think you just won the internet.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Congratulations!

 

 

Cats - meow, cougars ...?

 

-LimA

[Limahong]

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Gave me belly laughs. 

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

We  are laughing too...

 

 

From our bellies...

 

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

On 6/25/2018 at 7:24 AM, Nebulae Bred said:

Any recommended literature/media on emptiness?

 

Hi Nebulae Bred,

 

 

 

- LimA