Why Follow Tao?

[Marblehead]

The Way of Tao and the way of man.  

 

Note the upper and lower case letters.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

13 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

It seems to me that part of the problem here (the problem being six pages of undecisive writings =) is due to a common problem with the definition of Tao, because it has two (2) two definitions.  One definition is the Way, and the other is also the Way, got it?  OK, good.  Which one you chose to talk about also determines this question of free will.

 

One is the Way the universe works (you can quote me on that) and the other Way is the path that you can take to get to the 'first' Way.  Either way works. a person who is already at one with the Way, our ideal accomplished sage, like me for example  has no need to know anything about the Way (path) to get there because they are already there.  Then there's the other Way, the path that one takes to get to the Way, which is used by those who want an occasional reminder as to which direction to take to get to the Way, which is confusing, since it's everywhere in all directions.  Which direction do you take to get to everywhere?  HellifIknow.

 

Got it?  Simple, right?

 

This reminds me of the joke about a tourist in Ireland who asks one of the locals for directions to Dublin. The Irishman replies: ‘Well sir, if I were you, I wouldn’t start from here’. 

[Stewart]

On 4/16/2018 at 5:58 AM, wandelaar said:

"What should be our way life if we want to maximize our chances on a long, peaceful and happy life?"

I am always suspicious of the word happy.  You hear parents wanting only that their children be happy. And everybody seeks happiness as if they were junkies and happiness was their drug of choice.  To me the end all, be all of life is not happiness, rather it is fulfillment. Instead of raising a generation of bliss-ninnies we would be better to raise a generation of doers.  People who accomplish things and feel good about having done this.  Otherwise, happiness is just a choice available at the Neurosurgery center.

[wandelaar]

13 minutes ago, Stewart said:

I am always suspicious of the word happy.  You hear parents wanting only that their children be happy. And everybody seeks happiness as if they were junkies and happiness was their drug of choice.

 

Seems you don't like it.

 

13 minutes ago, Stewart said:

To me the end all, be all of life is not happiness, rather it is fulfillment. Instead of raising a generation of bliss-ninnies we would be better to raise a generation of doers.  People who accomplish things and feel good about having done this.

 

I very much doubt whether we would be better of with such a generation of doers. It rather looks to me like we are much too busy already and would do good to slow down a bit and allow some time for meditation, contemplation, or taking a walk. More non-productive stuff please!

 

But I agree with "getting things done" as being a possible way to happiness. I am a (much too?) busy guy myself.

 

13 minutes ago, Stewart said:

  Otherwise, happiness is just a choice available at the Neurosurgery center.

 

May be that option will become available in the future. You won't be able to block that by telling young people to stay away from drugs and other short cuts. It will just make those things the more desirable as "forbidden fruits".

[dawei]

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

It seems to me that part of the problem here (the problem being six pages of undecisive writings =) is due to a common problem with the definition of Tao, because it has two (2) two definitions.  One definition is the Way, and the other is also the Way, got it?  OK, good.  Which one you chose to talk about also determines this question of free will.

 

One is the Way the universe works (you can quote me on that) and the other Way is the path that you can take to get to the 'first' Way.  Either way works. a person who is already at one with the Way, our ideal accomplished sage, like me for example  has no need to know anything about the Way (path) to get there because they are already there.  Then there's the other Way, the path that one takes to get to the Way, which is used by those who want an occasional reminder as to which direction to take to get to the Way, which is confusing, since it's everywhere in all directions.  Which direction do you take to get to everywhere?  HellifIknow.

 

Got it?  Simple, right?

 

I almost wrote the same thing... but I guess I realized you were going to do it so I didn't need to do it.

 

But I was going to point out that the first line of the DDJ has Dao three times 

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Stewart said:

I am always suspicious of the word happy.  

Yeah, I used to have "Peace & Happiness" in my signature block here but defining happiness was next to impossible.  Replaced happiness with contentment.  Being content is easier to define.

 

[Lost in Translation]

5 hours ago, Starjumper said:

It seems to me that part of the problem here (the problem being six pages of undecisive writings =) is due to a common problem with the definition of Tao, because it has two (2) two definitions.  One definition is the Way, and the other is also the Way, got it?  OK, good.  Which one you chose to talk about also determines this question of free will.

 

Brilliant! Now we're on page 7 and it's getting a lot clearer. 

 

5 hours ago, Starjumper said:

One is the Way the universe works (you can quote me on that) and the other Way is the path that you can take to get to the 'first' Way.  Either way works. a person who is already at one with the Way, our ideal accomplished sage, like me for example  has no need to know anything about the Way (path) to get there because they are already there.  Then there's the other Way, the path that one takes to get to the Way, which is used by those who want an occasional reminder as to which direction to take to get to the Way, which is confusing, since it's everywhere in all directions.  Which direction do you take to get to everywhere?  HellifIknow.

 

Got it?  Simple, right?

 

Thank you!

[9th]

Why follow gravity?

[Boundlesscostfairy]

What is the connection between the word "way" and the word "Law"?

[Lost in Translation]

12 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

What is the connection between the word "way" and the word "Law"?

 

Natural law or man made law?

[Boundlesscostfairy]

well first we must surmise the difference between Those..

 

Natural law..of motion gravity..survival of the fittest etc...

 

Vs, The socially cultured memetic pi chart...which includes any memes at all..perceptions and ideas of law...have to come from somewhere ultimately...

 

And then we question well..could they both come from the same source!? And then we add, that they probably could...and so what they came from is the source..and that source is Tao..in a manner of colloquial speaking...

[9th]

Ordering of dis

City of needle point

Remains in stitches

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Questioning the Reliquary in a quarry, or Queery of the thought of another person? Which is indifferent both only in action suspecion...Speciation and species or guiness... but all heterodox notions of the person or human animal in peril...which is a siege perilous of envil, and evelopomnety...and envelopes are opened fast...

[Lost in Translation]

4 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Questioning the Reliquary in a quarry, or Queery of the thought of another person? Which is indifferent both only in action suspecion...Speciation and species or guiness... but all heterodox notions of the person or human animal in peril...which is a siege perilous of envil, and evelopomnety...and envelopes are opened fast...

 

I have a cookie. I also have chocolate milk.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

both would probably be glad!

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

What is the connection between the word "way" and the word "Law"?

Interesting question.  Not well defined, in my opinion.

 

The way of man and the laws of man are basically the same thing.  Both can be violated and if not caught by the man police will likely have no negative consequences.

 

The Way of Tao and the Laws of Nature (Physics) cannot be violated.  We can do only what is possible at any given point in time.

 

 

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I have a cookie. I also have chocolate milk.

Then you should eat and drink and be contented.

 

[9th]

8 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Questioning the Reliquary in a quarry, or Queery of the thought of another person? Which is indifferent both only in action suspecion...Speciation and species or guiness... but all heterodox notions of the person or human animal in peril...which is a siege perilous of envil, and evelopomnety...and envelopes are opened fast...

 

This is why im broke

Spinning wheel of deals

Red snapper....

 

Very tasty...  D:<

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Then you should eat and drink and be contented.

 

And that shall be the whole of the Law!

 

But no kidding - in a sense it is....

[Marblehead]

9 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

And that shall be the whole of the Law!

 

But no kidding - in a sense it is....

Yeah, I modified that from:  Sleep when tired and eat when hungry.  I call that spontaneous living.

 

[wandelaar]

The problem is that we as human being always tend to think there should be something more to life than just living well. 

 

A yoga teacher once said that (or something very similar), and I guess this might very well be the biggest existential problem we as "spoiled children of the western world" still have to cope with.

[Marblehead]

20 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

The problem is that we as human being always tend to think there should be something more to life than just living well. 

 

True, but that's not universal.  There still are some isolated societies who's only concerns are having a safe place to sleep when tired and knowing where to get food when hungry.

 

My life isn't like that, of course, as I have been conditioned to want more out of life than that.

 

And, there is always that desire in the heart of most of us of wanting to control our environment.

[wandelaar]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

True, but that's not universal.  There still are some isolated societies who's only concerns are having a safe place to sleep when tired and knowing where to get food when hungry.

 

When "having a safe place to sleep when tired and knowing where to get food when hungry" is problematic it will of course become your first concern. It gets interesting when those things are no longer problematic, do you know of societies where people are just happy with life as it is (without any higher spiritual of materialistic aspirations). That would then be a realization of the utopian small village described by Lao tse.

 

[Marblehead]

I consider the Bedouin peoples of North Africa to be amongst those.  Also, without direct association, I know that there are some smaller villages in sub-Sahara Africa and South America, particularly in the Amazon Rain Forest who are amongst those.

 

Likely some smaller villages in the Arctic regions of North America and Europe/Asia could be included in that category as well.

 

There are some in northern India and I am sure there are some in China as well.

 

I suppose we could identify more if we did some research.

 

 

[Rara]

On 16/04/2018 at 11:58 AM, wandelaar said:

Good question! I think we are now at the point where we can see "following Tao" as acting in a way that respects the dynamics of the situation, and thus puts egocentric considerations second place. Letting egocentric considerations becloud your understanding of the situation leads to unwise and thus counterproductive action. So in a subtle way following Tao is just using common sense or practical wisdom. Of course you don't need to, but why should one knowingly sabotage one's own actions?

 

Still I am not quite sure about "following Tao" as regards the goals we set ourselves. You could set yourself the goal of becoming the biggest criminal in the world and be willing to pay the price when you don't succeed. That would be clearly against the unassuming way of Lao tse and Chuang tsu, but then why should you follow the way of Lao tse and Chuang tsu  when you are willing to live with the consequences. There is still an element of choice involved, and I don't see how to somehow prove that the way followed by Lao tse and Chuang tse is the one and only WAY OF TAO. If there is such a thing... Perhaps we should instead ask ourselves the following  question:

 

"What should be our way life if we want to maximize our chances on a long, peaceful and happy life?"

 

Then the question whether Lao tse and Chuang tse were right could in principle be answered. And the conundrum of the aspiring top criminal is also solved because he just doesn't care that much about ' maximizing his chances on a long, peaceful and happy life '.

 

Excellent post