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 not native Chinese language speakers can have a deep understanding of Taoist approach.

 

 

Only in their fantasies and get rich quick  schemes.

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​There is a goal? Does this mean I need to score? There is something to understand? This is very confusing.

 

When did Tao become knowledge, acting, agendas, goals, high or low ,have or have not? No wonder sages have nothing to teach.

 

​This all sounds like something that happens when the Tao is lost.

 

I am right and you are wrong who would like to be the judge? If you agree with me that would be awesome. If you disagree with me how can you be a fair judge. 

 

My me is so full of me i can not even see everything that is not me which makes me and everything.

 

I give up, I am going to make some soup with these opposites and drink it. one dash of wrong one dash of right, Oh...the soup is me. I mean an apple 

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A poem from Lu don bin

 

舉世盡皆尋此道

 

People All the world are looking for the way(dao)

 

誰人空裡得玄關,

 

Who can get the secret gate (in the emptiness)

 

明明道在堪消息

 

It is very clear that dao is right there(can be easily seen by the messages around us)

 

日日灘頭去又還

 

Just like the coast go and back

 

Ha, try to use my poor English to translate like a poem too.

Edited by awaken
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they are right apples to right oranges)

Maybe ripe apples to ripe oranges

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I can't say I agree that the chinese have the one inroad to comprehension and experience of dao.

 

Dao is eeeeeeverywhere... even in my toilet. 

 

edit to add:  ironically though, I think our toilet was made in China... go figure :)

 

Right. Many modern Chinese are so far from their ancestors.
Let's also remember that Taoism is based on the alchemy, which has been known in many parts of the ancient world. 
 
So it's possible to understand other Traditions through Taoism, and Taoism through other Traditions. And it doesn't depend on nationality.
 
However, one need to get practical results in any tradition first.
Edited by opendao

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Only in their fantasies and get rich quick  schemes.

 

funny words out of non-Chinese folks making rush promotion of a Taiwanese lady as an "authentic source"...

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​There is a goal? Does this mean I need to score? There is something to understand? This is very confusing.

 

When did Tao become knowledge, acting, agendas, goals, high or low ,have or have not? No wonder sages have nothing to teach.

 

​This all sounds like something that happens when the Tao is lost.

 

I am right and you are wrong who would like to be the judge? If you agree with me that would be awesome. If you disagree with me how can you be a fair judge. 

 

My me is so full of me i can not even see everything that is not me which makes me and everything.

 

I give up, I am going to make some soup with these opposites and drink it. one dash of wrong one dash of right, Oh...the soup is me. I mean an apple 

 

Having no goals is just another goal. Getting rid of attachments is just another attachment. Lao Zi said about his Dao, that it's not on side roads... 
 
Dao is the goal. Without such an aim, practical, not philosophical abstract idea, it's really easy to wander carefree in the deadly emptiness the entire life.

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It is rather pertinent that the same exact character you point to in the same exact novel blows up somebody's heart with his bare hands because the guy was acting too out of line. Talk about a stark counterpoint to your argument.

 

The perspective you suggest is not practical for somebody who really wants to learn. Daoists I have met have no trouble speaking very directly to those they're willing to teach.

 

Thus,

 

On the one hand, if a student comes to a Daoist teacher and declares, "I have discovered that holding my breath as long as I can and thinking about the space inside of my navel will surely make me an immortal," the teacher may simply nod and say, "ok."

 

But on the other hand, if the student describes his or her "discovery" and then asks the teacher for his or her opinion, there's no sensible reason to think that a Daoist teacher wouldn't simply say, "well, I'm afraid you're incorrect."

 

Simple, straightforward, down to earth, pragmatic.

 

 

Right. Similar words we hear very often from Taoist Teachers in China. This is the only approach that works, not abstract ideas about doing nothing and emptiness. 

 

道可道, 非常

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A poem from Lu don bin

 

舉世盡皆尋此道

 

People All the world are looking for the way(dao)

 

誰人空裡得玄關,

 

Who can get the secret gate (in the emptiness)

 

明明道在堪消息

 

It is very clear that dao is right there(can be easily seen by the messages around us)

 

日日灘頭去又還

 

Just like the coast go and back

 

Ha, try to use my poor English to translate like a poem too.

 

It's very abstract, while goals in Dao are very practical and precise.

 

If you pretend to know and teach openly for free, then what is the first practical step?

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It's very abstract, while goals in Dao are very practical and precise.

 

If you pretend to know and teach openly for free, then what is the first practical step?

 

First step from which teaching?

 

If we are going to compare maps, can we agree there are different routes that come from different places? I've heard you criticize the secret of the golden flower method, and admit that you do not understand what it does. Does avoiding side paths really mean there is only one map one can use to walk the main path?

 

The xingming guizhi says:

 

For in regard to the Three Passes: those who from doing enter non-doing [practice] the gradual method; those who cultivate the Upper Pass concurrently with the lower two passes [practice] the sudden method. As for those who directly refine the spirit and return to the Void, at the critical moment when the Work arrives at the Void, the extremity of quiescence, essence transforms into qi of itself, qi transforms into spirit of itself, meaning Gatemaster Yin’s principles on forgetting essence and spirit and transcending life.

 

Do you understand each of these ways and their steps?

 

BTW, did you hear Wu Ming Jing say there is no goal? Are we not allowed to steep ourselves in unity without fretting about goals or no goals?

 

From Foundations of Internal Alchemy, Wang Mu, tl Fabrizio Pregadio:

 

An anonymous master said:

 

In the expression One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier, what is important is the word "One." Guarding the Center and Embracing Unity means guarding the One Opening. In all the ten thousand scrolls of the writings on the Elixir, nothing is more important than guarding Unity. When you are able to comprehend Unity, all pursuits are concluded. Therefore the word "One" refers to what one concentrates on and to what one guards in a state of quiescence.

 

Do you believe that comprehending unity has no relation to being unified and harmonious within all things?

 

I do not proclaim to know the answers, I simply ask questions of one who does proclaim to know.

 

Do you now the secret meanings of dao de jing chapter 24 (tl Lui Ming):

 

What is strenuous cannot be sustained.

 

Self-confidence dulls the mind.

Self-justification discredits the speaker.

Self-assertion squanders resources.

Bragging achieves nothing.

 

Such qi-squandering conduct reminds Adepts

To shun the superfluous and redundant.

 

Do you take these as admonitions, or statements of truth?

 

It's noon so I have a lot of questions. I don't need answers.

 

:wub: :wub: :wub:

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日日灘頭去又還

Just like the coast go and back

 

Thats a great poem. Very deep. Thi idea is that the tide may cover a part of the coastal land for a time but the land is still there.

Edited by Taoist Texts

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First step from which teaching?

 

Awaken's.

 

If we are going to compare maps, can we agree there are different routes that come from different places? I've heard you criticize the secret of the golden flower method, and admit that you do not understand what it does. Does avoiding side paths really mean there is only one map one can use to walk the main path?

 

there is only one correct map of the territory.

There are different starting points, but the general Way will be the same.

 

It's because the territory dictates the possibilities, not one's free will or desire.

Human body defines all possibilities to practice.

 

Let's not start speaking about Golden Flower, because I admitted you have very little idea on what it teaches. 

And the book is correct, who I am to criticize it...

 

 

The xingming guizhi says:

 

For in regard to the Three Passes: those who from doing enter non-doing [practice] the gradual method; those who cultivate the Upper Pass concurrently with the lower two passes [practice] the sudden method. As for those who directly refine the spirit and return to the Void, at the critical moment when the Work arrives at the Void, the extremity of quiescence, essence transforms into qi of itself, qi transforms into spirit of itself, meaning Gatemaster Yin’s principles on forgetting essence and spirit and transcending life.

 

Do you understand each of these ways and their steps?

 

this book is not what I would recommend to understand the differences between various correct methods of the elixir. 

 

To explain. External alchemy looks very different from Neidan, but it follows the same principles, has the same goals and milestone results.

 

 

BTW, did you hear Wu Ming Jing say there is no goal? Are we not allowed to steep ourselves in emptiness without fretting about goals or no goals?

 

You're allowed to do anything and walk any roads you may like. Just remember about possible consequences...

 

But "stepping into emptiness" is a goal on its own, and it needs your will and understanding what to do. 

 

You confuse the fruit with a sprout. Having no goals when wu-wei is reached and in the beginning of study.

 

 

Do you believe that comprehending unity has no relation to being unified and harmonious within all things?

 

It has a relation but not as you describe it. Unity inside is a harmony on its own. Unity inside is a unity of Xing and Ming, it's not the unity with all things. 

 

 

Do you now the secret meanings of dao de jing chapter 24 (tl Lui Ming):

 

What is strenuous cannot be sustained.

 

Self-confidence dulls the mind.

Self-justification discredits the speaker.

Self-assertion squanders resources.

Bragging achieves nothing.

 

Such qi-squandering conduct reminds Adepts

To shun the superfluous and redundant.

 

Do you take these as admonitions, or statements of truth?

 

You see things one way, but Dao can have different opinion.

 

 

It's noon so I have a lot of questions. I don't need answers.

 

I think others might be more consistent in reaching out their goals  :) 

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Someone needs to reach their goals and have an agenda too bad that does not work with the greatest mystery of all.

 

True Emptiness is not empty it contains all things.

 

How do we penetrate the mystery? We can not, we are the mystery. 

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Someone needs to reach their goals and have an agenda too bad that does not work with the greatest mystery of all.

 

True Emptiness is not empty it contains all things.

 

How do we penetrate the mystery? We can not, we are the mystery. 

 

there are no any reasons to pursuit such an artificial goal, so you're right, it won't work.

 

Goals are not made by students, they are set by teachers who reached that goals already.

 

It's like somebody on top of a mountain guiding those lost in forests of words, how to climb up... 

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Having no goals is just another goal. 
 
Dao is the goal. Without such an aim, practical, not philosophical abstract idea, it's really easy to wander carefree in the deadly emptiness the entire life.

 

 

too much dualistic thinking... but consider this:

 

If no goal = goal , then what is the meaning of 'goal' ?     Just this or that, as Zhuangzi says.

 

So, they are both meaningless.  Forget both.   There is Dao... not a goal...

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Opendao, I appreciate your thoughtful reply, and I welcome all of your little cute jabs at what I know or do not know, what I imply or do not imply. Thank you.

 

My post is largely intended as an invitation to extend the workings of the principles of your map, whatever it may be, into all things, and let your ego disappear. See what happens. I hope and intend to do the same, though I am sure you must be further along than I.

 

Does the practice end with where the map ends? Does the map show all that is possible?

 

Precisely because you are the holder of such a sacred lineage, I am sure you have such incredible potential to work indescribable wizardries that extend far beyond trying to debate rights and wrongs.

 

If you cling to the map, you are limited by the map. The dao exists ever between the lines, making the map full of infinite possibility. Blessings. :wub:

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too much dualistic thinking... but consider this:

 

If no goal = goal , then what is the meaning of 'goal' ?     Just this or that, as Zhuangzi says.

 

So, they are both meaningless.  Forget both.   There is Dao... not a goal...

 

I told "having no goals" is a goal, but you read it as "no goal = goal". Too much abstract thinking.

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Opendao, I appreciate your thoughtful reply, and I welcome all of your little cute jabs at what I know or do not know, what I imply or do not imply. Thank you.

 

My post is largely intended as an invitation to extend the workings of the principles of your map, whatever it may be, into all things, and let your ego disappear. See what happens. I hope and intend to do the same, though I am sure you must be further along than I.

 

Does the practice end with where the map ends? Does the map show all that is possible?

 

Precisely because you are the holder of such a sacred lineage, I am sure you have such incredible potential to work indescribable wizardries that extend far beyond trying to debate rights and wrongs.

 

If you cling to the map, you are limited by the map. The dao exists ever between the lines, making the map full of infinite possibility. Blessings. :wub:

 

 

Try to think more about the territory than about any map... The territory defines what is wrong and what is right, not the map.

 

The practice described in a correct map ends where the territory ends.

 

Dao exists everywhere, but Dao one needs to Dao is not Dao that is everywhere.

So no map can give you more possibilities than there are in reality. 

 

That's why for Lao Zi his Dao is a broad road, while side curved roads are what dogmatic people love to follow. They can name it as "no rules carefree wandering in true emptiness", but it changes really nothing...

Edited by opendao

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Is the goal to return to the primordial unity of the Dao, or to create and nurture an immortal spirit? Are these fundamentally different goals, or the same thing?
 

 

 

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Is the goal to return to the primordial unity of the Dao, or to create and nurture an immortal spirit? Are these fundamentally different goals, or the same thing?

 

 

if by "primordial unity" we understand a specific state in a human body, then it's one of results on the Way.

To nurture Yangshen, yang spirit, is another result.

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Is the goal to return to the primordial unity of the Dao, or to create and nurture an immortal spirit? Are these fundamentally different goals, or the same thing?

 

 

In zhong lu chuan dao ji (tl Eva Wong), carrying on from the perspective of refining the body - just one perspective of the tapestry - we hear something like this:

 

"During specific times in the year, month, and hour, the three yangs are gathered. When this occurs, you should refine the yang and prevent yin from emerging. During specific times in the year, month, and hour, the three yins will accumulate. When this occurs, you should nurture the yang and prevent it from dissipating. The true vapor that is born inside you is the vapor of pure yang. Therefore it is important that you refine the vapors of the five viscera, still the breath, and direct the vapors up to the Celestial Pool. When you have accomplished all this, first the yin in the kidneys will disappear and the waters of the Nine Rivers will be still. Second, the yin in the liver will disappear and the eight gates will be shut. Third, the yin will disappear in the lungs and metal and fire will be brought together in the furnace. Fourth, the yin will disappear from the spleen and the Jade Chamber will be sealed. Finally, the true vapor will rise and the four vapors will merge as one. Even if the golden fluid tries to descend, this little cup of liquid will not be able to oppose the full force of the fire. As a result, fire will enclose water and the two will unite and enter the palace of the spirit. When this happens, you should slow the breath and turn your gaze inward. When the one intention does not stray, the spirit will become omniscient. In stillness you will hear music and songs. You will feel as if you are in a dream, but you are actually not dreaming. Rather, you are immersed in emptiness. The environment that you experience will be completely different from that of mundane existence. Nothing in this world can equal its splendor: the buildings are like palaces, the roofs are covered with sparkling green tiles, the trellises shine like peals, and the air is thick with fragrance. These are signs that the yang spirit has left the Inner Court to return to the upper tan-t'ien. When the spirit is refined further, it will be lifted to immortality to merge with the Great Tao. When the spirit thrusts through the Celestial Gate, the subtle body will be bathed in a golden glow. Flowers will land on the mundane body and swirl through the air like ripples in water. One movement of an arm or a leg will send you traveling ten thousand miles. If the yang spirit is returned to the shell, spirit and body will merge and you will be able to live as long as the sky and the earth. At this point you can choose to live forever in the earthly realm or leave the mundane shell and return to the ten continents. If you choose to leave, you will be carried to the purple palace of the emperor Tzu-wei, where you will be escorted to you original home. Your name and the merits that you have accumulated will be entered in the register, you will be allowed to live and wander in the three islands, and you will be liberated from the confines of earthly wind and dust. This is what is meant by 'being liberated from the dust and transcending the mundane.'"

 

 

This resonates with much of what is explored in Journey to the West, a book Liu Yiming holds as sacred and revealing of the celestial mechanism.

 

An interesting distinction is made here between leaving the shell of the body behind to return to the ten continents, or not and living as long as heaven and earth. Another interesting parallel is that the Monkey King chose to remain in the body, yet was also able to access the ten continents. He was something of an anomaly, and needed a little ego refining, but from a different perspective, this brings to mind the bodhisattva vow. I do not know the answers, but a part of me envisions the possibility of bringing these realms back into closer proximity to each other, along with bringing all of the universe closer together into a dance of harmony that ultimately and completely returns the all of it to the dao that currently exists even beyond the reach of the ten continents. I have heard that these realms used to be closer within reach of us, whereby humans would stumble into it naturally from time to time. I can only imagine it is the lack of guarding unity as a whole by our species that has pushed it far away, along with pushing the universe further apart. The power of immortals who are able to access all realms seems key to holding it all together.

 

If we are going to speak of goals, this a (perhaps naive) dream of mine. I have not finished reading Journey to the West however, so perhaps something in there will refine or change my perspective and this goal. I do not mean offense to any within the ten continents, I simply seek to nurture unity.

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Tao does not have any goal itself, but we do. Can have at least. If one personally does not have any goal then its his choice and destiny, but if he has, then it can correspond to Tao. This is the difference - do not mix Tao and people's behavior.

Rgrds, Ilya

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In zhong lu chuan dao ji (tl Eva Wong), carrying on from the perspective of refining the body - just one perspective of the tapestry - we hear something like this:

 

 

This resonates with much of what is explored in Journey to the West, a book Liu Yiming holds as sacred and revealing of the celestial mechanism.

 

An interesting distinction is made here between leaving the shell of the body behind to return to the ten continents, or not and living as long as heaven and earth. Another interesting parallel is that the Monkey King chose to remain in the body, yet was also able to access the ten continents. He was something of an anomaly, and needed a little ego refining, but from a different perspective, this brings to mind the bodhisattva vow. I do not know the answers, but a part of me envisions the possibility of bringing these realms back into closer proximity to each other, along with bringing all of the universe closer together into a dance of harmony that ultimately and completely returns the all of it to the dao that currently exists even beyond the reach of the ten continents. I have heard that these realms used to be closer within reach of us, whereby humans would stumble into it naturally from time to time. I can only imagine it is the lack of guarding unity as a whole by our species that has pushed it far away, along with pushing the universe further apart. The power of immortals who are able to access all realms seems key to holding it all together.

 

If we are going to speak of goals, this a (perhaps naive) dream of mine. I have not finished reading Journey to the West however, so perhaps something in there will refine or change my perspective and this goal. I do not mean offense to any within the ten continents, I simply seek to nurture unity.

 

Immortality as a goal resonates with me, despite it seeming somewhat ridiculous or impossible to achieve. I am also reminded of the tree of life that people are barred from when they are thrown out of the garden of Eden, and the work that would be needed to re-enter that garden and eat of that tree.

 

No matter how ridiculous it might seem, I do think it is possible, though I don't think it's possible following any currently available system known to us at this time.

 

I mean creating a spirit immortal, not a physical immortal. This is my goal at least.

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日日灘頭去又還

 

Just like the coast go and back

 

Thats a great poem. Very deep. Thi idea is that the tide may cover a part of the coastal land for a time but the land is still there.

I add some more words

 

Just like the coast come and back (every day)

 

日日means every day

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It's very abstract, while goals in Dao are very practical and precise.

 

If you pretend to know and teach openly for free, then what is the first practical step?

以小人之心,度君子之腹

 

【拼音】:yǐ xiǎo rén zhī xīn,duó jūn zǐ zhī fù

 

In a small man's heart to guess the belly of a gung Zi.

 

夏蟲不可語冰

 

【拼音】:xià chóng bù kě yǐ yǔ bīng

 

We can't tell the summer worm what is ice.

 

It means we can't let the worm only live in summer know what is ice.

 

That is why guan Zi told a story about a super big bird in the first chapter.

 

We don't expect everyone can understand what dao is.

 

Lu don bin say it very clearly. The secret door is very important. So that is why he ask who can know the secret door.

 

If you don't know what is the secret door, how can you say you know what dao is? How can you say the names of the ancestors祖師爺?

 

Did you have kept the ancestors in mind?

Do you feel shame to the ancestors ?

 

 

 

I saw some people think there is no goal in dao.

I don't think so.

 

There is always goal in Daoist practicing.

Edited by awaken
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