Why do you say "school"?

[Kar3n]

I decided to repeat it here, so make my position clear to all readers:

 

I really don't care when I'm being insulted but if it happens I think I'm in my right to reply accordingly.

 

I've seen your notifications and I'm trying to make your life easier, but really I don't think it's allowed by any rules to accuse Wu-Liu Pai (or whatever else school or person) in various crimes without providing any evidences. however it happens in every post of Awaken. As you can see I tried to tell her politely in the beginning, but she ignored that.

 

If your definition of replying accordingly is to personally insult someone who disagrees with your system, then you are mistaken.

 

Please take the warning in this thread seriously and seek out another way to defend and define your respective systems.

[opendao]

If your definition of replying accordingly is to personally insult someone who disagrees with your system, then you are mistaken.

 

No, it's not my definition, read careful that the reason is in lies. And you can find a lot of personal insult to my address in this topic ("salesman", "crazy person" etc), so let's try to live without double standards.

[Kar3n]

No, it's not my definition, read careful that the reason is in lies. And you can find a lot of personal insult to my address in this topic ("salesman", "crazy person" etc), so let's try to live without double standards.

 

I have read the entire thread carefully. There is not a lot that I miss when the rules are being breached. I am well aware of what is happening here.

 

There are no double standards, the rules apply to everyone. The warning applies to any and everyone posting in the thread who insults another. 

 

Take the warning seriously or not, that is up to you.

 

I hope that you decide on a different way to defend and prove your system.

[opendao]

I have read the entire thread carefully. There is not a lot that I miss when the rules are being breached. I am well aware of what is happening here.

 

There are no double standards, the rules apply to everyone. The warning applies to any and everyone posting in the thread who insults another. 

 

Take the warning seriously or not, that is up to you.

 

I hope that you decide on a different way to defend and prove your system.

 

Thanks for your efforts, I hope it's not in vain.

[Taoist Texts]

 And obviously she never saw any Wu-Liu Pai practitioner. 

 

Dont you know?!! Nobody can see a Wu-Liu Pai practitioner!!!

That is why there is no photos of them. It is one of their superpowers. The one and only actually.

[SeekerOfHealing]

One of the result is a physical immortality and return of the youth. People afraid to even talk about it, because then 99% of so-called "alchemy masters" are obvious charlatans

 

I saw teacher of single yang and he do not look young nor like immortal or nothing you talking about - stop selling people dream. He actually is very "decent" looking nothing like you speak off but I will not judge him the way you wanna portray people but to base on your judgement your teacher is not immortal in sense of physicality. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by SeekerOfHealing

[opendao]

Dont you know?!! Nobody can see a Wu-Liu Pai practitioner!!!

That is why there is no photos of them. It is one of their superpowers. The one and only actually.

 

I know very well, I've been to China, and seen everything with my own eyes. There are photos as well, even in public domain, and we show rare historical evidences as other things confirming our authenticity. It's a close school, as all other alchemy schools nowadays, and basically so far it is the only school that is represented in the western internet. People like you are not welcomed and won't be able to find anything even if they know exact address. It's just a fact after reading your absurd ideas for the past 10 years or so, you couldn't support any of them. This new is not an exception. Farewell.

[Taoist Texts]

  He prefers when people name him Arhont 

 

Je suis Arhont

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[Taoist Texts]

  It's just a fact after reading your absurd ideas for the past 10 years  

[Daeluin]

If you do not agree with me

 

Please do not come

 

We have something called owner permission. The person who starts the thread gets to click hide on posts they don't want.

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/37997-how-to-request-owner-permissions/

Before getting this you need to be here for 6 months and have 200 posts.

 

The intent is so people can have a discussion without conflict.

Because you already ask to not have 'opendao' in your thread, maybe you can ask a mod to hide any new posts from him.

 

opendao: you have good knowledge but all you do is start fights. funny way of guarding unity.

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[opendao]

I saw teacher of single yang and he do not look young nor like immortal or nothing you talking about - stop selling people dream. He actually is very "decent" looking nothing like you speak off. 

 

Then that's all you deserved. I and other students have seen him young, and there are pictures where he looks the same way as we saw him. I think I'd rather believe what I saw in reality then internet rumours and anonymous people disseminating lies. Knowing the real age of the Patriarch, I think he looks descent enough. Moreover, there are other great Teachers in the WLP you have no idea about.

 

I really have no interest to ask you what and where you've seen, but if you're so sure in your righteousness, try to prove your words. What I've heard so far from you here and in PM looks struggles of lack of any facts.

[opendao]

opendao: you have good knowledge but all you do is start fights. funny way of guarding unity.

 

I'm not looking for any unity with liers and charlatans as you do. You cannot understand it, and I see no point to explain.

[exorcist_1699]

Although not the Taoist school who holds the highest way , likely it is the "Middle School" or the " West School " that gets  the prestige , we still have to recognize the  contribution of Wu-Liu in spreading Taoist alchemy in recent centuries. Its emphasize on the importance of retaining jing as the pre-requirement for accomplishing physical eternity is significant. Comparing it with the Buddhist way,  and converge the best elements of them ,  gives us humans the most workable keys and steps  to attain eternal life,  very different from other religions'.

Claiming that Wu-Liu as "fake" is over-stating. On the  whole, WU-Liu's problems is no big ones, of course, you have to differentiate it from its so-called modern followers.

Edited December 7, 2016 by exorcist_1699

[Daeluin]

I'm not looking for any unity with liers and charlatans as you do. You cannot understand it, and I see no point to explain.

 

I'd prefer to say there is no such thing as a lie if one can see the truth.

 

Everything is true and false from some perspective, no matter how we press up on it, until we return to dao. I'm just hoping to learn from and harmonize with the dance of it all rather than trying to fight against it, for that just invites it to fight back.

[Daeluin]

When you are surrounded by BS, only way to not start a fight is to agree with BS!

 

And in agreeing, one faces no opposition from which to share discourse and fine tunings of comprehension!

[SeekerOfHealing]

What she speaking about is very similar to Long Men cultivation, she even spoke about ming method very good.

[Astral Monk]

Why do we need a school?

 

Pretty simple really--it gives us a better chance of finding legitimate, authentic information and experience.

 

A 'school' is just a collection of teachers and students--teachers who, hopefully and provably, are part of a long and well-documented lineage. Why do we want this? It gives us more confidence at the start that the information and experiences taught are derived from solid sources and are backed by time-tested methods.

 

It is the same in any profession or religion. To truly learn a trade we need authentic apprenticeship. The master mustve had a master who had a master who...etc. Almost no one re-invents a whole trade on their own out of thin air just be grabbing a tool and tuning into their intuition until their body moves the tool in just the right way. Tools are designed for very specific uses, some of which are not self-evident but must be demonstrated by authentic experienced users (masters).

 

Having a school that has persisted and been successful through time also gives us a better chance of not falling into dangerous deviations.

 

Now, if you are building a house, would you rather have a carpenter who 'discovered wood working' on his own from scratch through intuition or a carpenter who has been given his Red Seal or Journeyman certificate from established industry sources who have taught and tested him in the best practices of carpentry, building on hundreds of years of human knowledge and experience?

 

Its not impossible that someone could on their own come up with carpentry in all its modern innovation, but that type of event is so remote and unlikely as to be something very, very special and worthy of notice.

 

Why does Zen place such importance on transmission? It is said the line of heart-to-heart transmission reaches right back to Shakyamuni Buddha who imparted something profound in what would otherwise be an incidental action, and it was picked up and passed on again and again. Teachers might only pass their zen on to one true student in a lifetime!

 

This is all to mitigate the problem of deviation, which increases the further in history we get from the 'founders' of whatever tradition we are looking at.

 

We can argue about which school is better or worse, which is true or false, but generally speaking, if you start with a school you are going to be much farther ahead than anyone roaming about in the wilderness coming to all sorts of interesting conclusions and asserting 'schools are unnecessary'.

 

Even so called 'clear instructions' written in texts are never really clear, because language itself is problematic, and we are already having to perform many cognitive feats just to read text, let alone unfurl its meanings into something concrete that we can confidently practice.

 

8)

[SeekerOfHealing]

Pretty simple really--it gives us a better chance of finding legitimate, authentic information and experience.

 

No. it's make no sense and you fall into his manipulation. Whatever school or not you can use this kind of logic to manipulate people into fake school itself. There is no rule to that. School or no school it does not give more legitimacy to anything.

 

Buddha or other masters didn't create schools, zen masters didn't create schools - only those who wanted to make business (religion) and manipulate people with other masters achievements to get their way to comfortable life. This is logic you can adapt against your argument which means generally the same.

 

So whatever you put this way or that way, school or no school - there is no guarantee on legitimacy no matter how many stories and how much quasi-logic you want to put it in to convince yourself into believing that your school is right.

 

School have sense if it's initiatory school or mystery school when people do not have personal agenda like Xiao Yao Pai as it's from divine mandate which human greed can not penetrate into immortal realm. Regular schools of people are full of vice, greed and other things as religions. Of course there are genuine people as for the rule of yin and yang, when 90% are yin false people there are 10% or 1% that will make thru cultivation.

 

Just do not try convince yourself into something using broken logic like this please. Just see things the way they are - that the best way to be and see things. Human schools are human and have the same flaws as creators which is nothing wrong if you understand it and aware of it. (unless they are straight snake oil sellers)

[Astral Monk]

When discussions degenerate into sectarian shouting fests it is quite disheartening and serves to dispel confidence in honest seekers, especially beginners who cant tune into the fine details of the arguments.

 

We each have a path to follow for our own individual lives. I mightve simply read books by Kant and Hegel from the library and thought myself a philosopher, but that sort of armchair work doesnt lead to results, unless you are especially gifted. Instead I went to school and learned the craft from academics who spent their whole careers even lives at work with the material. That experience increased my precision and deeply developed my ability to work through and create structure in the often abstract world of philosophical concepts.

 

When I learned of DaoDe school and saw that it was an opportunity to get into a stream of education that could take me into traditional Neidan work, I figured, as a westerner with little desire to go to China, this might be as good a chance as I will get to maybe peel back the curtain and gain some understanding of what internal work is all about. They say that it is destiny for a person to discover neidan and gain a teacher. Sortov like how just having a copy of some Buddhist sutras is good enough to clear tonnes of karma, because it suggests that this life is reaping good seeds that have been planted through many lifetimes.

 

I'm not sure if I will ever enter on the neidan path formally, but so far working with Daogong has been satisfying. Its clear to me how Daogong can help develop one's skill in internal arts. My desire has been to improve my taiji and bagua zhang play, and I feel that Daogong has already helped in this regard. But its not so specific as that either--since Daogong is part of my path now just like many other elements are and have been, and they are are working together in the unique person that I am to produce a unique result. Evrything builds on what came before. Yes I can be part of a school or learn a special technique, but those things dont make me me--I am the totality of all those elements, and they must work for me in harmony.

 

However, I know that if I were just to cuddle up with my massive collection of IMA books and stop seeking actual instruction from real teachers my forward progress would halt to a crawl, and probably never go anywhere significant.

 

I can see that opendao has to walk the tightrope somewhat, because many teachings are not public, and moreover, many results need to be experienced by students through their own practice first, then later examined by teachers. Otherwise if we think that a result will happen only one way we might end up generating imaginary results rather than experiencing changes, as is the common complaint against many forms of qigong.

 

8)

[Astral Monk]

Again, which carpenter will you choose?

 

Sure there's no absolute garuantee that the carpenter school is 'legit'--they might be fly by night, but you have EVEN LESS with they guy who says he's 'self taught'. And with this last guy there's absolutely no recourse--you get scammed. At least a school, legit or not, is part of the larger structure of society and can be held to account, if people take steps to do so.

 

No. it's make no sense and you fall into his manipulation. Whatever school or not you can use this kind of logic to manipulate people into fake school itself. There is no rule to that. School or no school it does not give more legitimacy to anything. Buddha or other masters didn't create schools, zen masters didn't create schools - only those who wanted to make business (religion) and manipulate people with other masters achievements to get their way to comfortable life. This is logic you can adapt against your argument which means generally the same. So whatever you put this way or that way, school or no school - there is no guarantee on legitimacy no matter how many stories and how much quasi-logic you want to put it in to convince yourself into believing that your school is right. School have sense if it's initiatory school or mystery school when people do not have personal agenda like Xiao Yao Pai as it's from divine mandate which human greed can not penetrate into immortal realm. Regular schools of people are full of vice, greed and other things as religions. Of course there are genuine people as for the rule of yin and yang, when 90% are yin false people there are 10% or 1% that will make thru cultivation. Just do not try convince yourself into something using broken logic like this please. Just see things the way they are - that the best way to be and see things. Human schools are human and have the same flaws as creators which is nothing wrong if you understand it and aware of it. (unless they are straight snake oil sellers)

 

No 'broken logic' here, but maybe you're not using those terms correctly.

 

However, to contrast 'human schools' with XYP and its 'divine mandate' is kindof ludicrous and undermines your point. If we can't have any confidence in schools and their teachers how on earth are we supposed to swallow the idea that XYP has a divine mandate that human greed cannot penetrate? Unless XYP isnt a school. Or if it is a school, then it too is subject to your criticism.

 

You cant have things both ways or criticize the concept of schools while simultaneously upholding one single school as a shining example of how schools should be. It isnt helpful to say 'some are real schools while some are fake', because then we're right back to the start again on why we need schools and why and how a school can give legitimacy to a body of knowledge and skill. Or, again, it gives us a better chance at mitigating the risk of being scammed and learning nothing.

 

Consider--if there werent any schools of any kind preserving knowledge and skills across generations and being tested practically by their results (in any field you can imagine, not just neidan) what would be the state of human culture today? Very low, I reckon.

 

Just having texts preserved isnt good enough.

 

8)

Edited December 7, 2016 by Astral Monk

[Astral Monk]

Also, as a passing comment (again) on WLP and Daode school, the latter being accused of greedy marketing, that hasnt been my experience. On the contrary, I think Daode is seeking out authentic students to impart teachings to, rather than just broadcast to the whole world without concern. This is the opposite of 'greedy marketing'.

 

If you want to see marketing, check out virtually any contemporary qigong. For instance, while much good might be said about Chunyi Lin's Spring Forest Qigong and its mandate to create healers, you cant deny that the system is being marketed to the western public. Everything goes through Learning Strategies, which is a classic American marketeer where every little thing has a price tag and every need slip of paper is worth a dazzling annoucement. The connection is a bit off-putting, tbh.

 

I dont see that kind of motivation in Daode school. But maybe someone else has different experience.

 

Its easy to get wound up by text online, but reality is usually quite different.

 

8)

[Taoist Texts]

  It isnt helpful to say 'some are real schools while some are fake',  

 

Basically you are saying that you can not tell the difference between the two. But most people can, very easily.

[awaken]

Someone told me that I can not tell open dao is a liar.

 

Ok

 

I will not say it again.

 

But I hope that you have the same rules to him.

 

I will focus on my teaching.

 

Can anyone tell me how to prevent the disturb from opendao ?