Is man's nature violent or peaceful?

[Karl]

A reminder to some as to what humans are capable of in the name of a so called moral 'higher cause'.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OunzQrTc5M

 

Collectivism is what you mean. Bad philosophy. States and Religious authorities act this way. I doubt the average man would if he was not the pawn of collectivist ideologies. This is the result of being immoral, to acting against reality, to compromise. This is the result of anti-life philosophies than dominate our societies today.

[noonespecial]

If the true nature of a tree

     is bitterness,

Even though you plant it

     in the very garden of heaven Where it is watered by the stream 

     of heaven’s immortality

And its roots fed

     with the most honey-sweet ambrosia, In the end the essence 

     will emerge

When the fruit is bears

     is bitter.

- pir khan

[Karl]

I've never found a violent/peaceful apple, star, or circle.

[Stosh]

Is man's nature violent or peaceful?

 

 

 

On one side, there's the Dalai Lama claiming from a book The Art of Happiness, that humanity is naturally gentle and kind.

 

On the other side are Christians telling us that we are fallen humans who are full of sin.

 

 

 

Which side is the truth? I'm confused.

Umm what are you confused about?  ...  precisely.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Stosh

[Nungali]

I am naturally a peaceful (and solitary) person.  But please don't piss me off because even I don't like me when I'm pissed off.

 

 

  One time when I was camping out with Aboriginal friends and Uncle Lewi  goes  "Tell 'em about that fight you had with the loggers."

 

So I did .  And this one guys goes "What !   You did what !   Man, thats awesome .... but what's going on there ....  we thought you were a hippy and all that peace and love stuff ? "

 

Me "Oh , I am , I am into peace and love .... like here at this place , everyone loves each other and takes care of and looks after each other, and its peaceful, nice and calm, out in nature by the river ...... but if someone comes along and tries to fuck that up ..... "

 

Uncle Lewi  finished it    "  .....   you'll fuck them up ." 

 

[Marblehead]

Yep.  That's why I warn people to not mess with the Spirit of the Valley.

[Nungali]

Also when someone dresses 'tribally' they appear to be setting themselves apart. It doesn't matter if it's a top hat or a veil. We instantly begin to assess the threat of someone who dresses tribally because they might be hostile.

 

In a weird backlash we now have accusations of 'cultural appropriation' by whites who adopt the tribal looks of another culture. This is really liberal bigotry.

 

 

and damn those tribal people that wear western clothes sometimes !    Stealin my cultural heritage 

 

 

 

 

But seriously .....  in some case, yes, i feel its bad ;

 

 

 

But in other cases  ( like here )  the indigenous like the fact that we like some of their stuff enough to adopt it  ...... along as you dont go down the street wearing a red headband or other  'special symbols' that have specific meaning for them.

 

But generally they love it,  especially 'new culture' stuff.  If a white fellah is wearing a koori flag on his shirt,  he will get the nod of approval 

 

 

 

On a similar note, I was delighted to see our new Miss World entrant  !  

 

 

Maminydjama  (Magnolia)   Maymuru 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of the shots of her are abso gorgeous !   Dude above (model hunter and her promoter)   says what first attracted him to her (watching her at an ATM machine) was her height and her  gracefulness and movement  (even in taking out her credit card ) , her walk, everything   ( she has a background in hunting and gathering ) .

 

BUT ... 

 

then they get her ready for a photo shoot .... and  my God !   ....   what the fuck did they do that to her for  !   

 

(This only came out yesterday so there is no other pic I can find as  yet .    But they paraded her out with this lipstick on ......   URK!   Bright hot red lipstick ... on those beautiful dark features .... I mean , it doesnt even work artistically ... and from a distance looked even more ridiculous !   just this glowing red mouth ..... no no no no .  

 

 

 

 

and also a horrible bright green unmatching startling dress to go with it .    

 

So they will present a local indigenous beauty as our entrant, in a horrible western dress, bright red lips, white diamond earrings, excessive eye makeup  ......

 

.....    I hope they dont try a tanned light face powder !       

[Nungali]

Yet you didn't react with violence, you reasoned it out. Good integration :-)

 

The emotional 'body' often works by  reactions  ,   whereas the intellectual often by response. 

 

Even just counting from 1 - 10 can change the 1st into the 2nd .

[Nungali]

I've never found a violent/peaceful apple, star, or circle.

 

Then you have never found  ' Tsieh  She  '  -  'The Eye of the Demon" , 'The Star of Piled up Corpses' , 'Medusa's Third Eye',  " "the Gorgon's head, a ghastly sight, deformed and dreadful, and a sign of woe." ,  the 'Blinking Demon', Ra's al Ghul, Caput Larvae, Rosh ha Satan, Lilith ....    all different cultures names for the same star. 

 

 It causes misfortune, violence, decapitation, hanging, electrocution and mob violence, and gives a dogged and violent nature that causes death to the native or others. It is the most evil star in the heavens. Murder, sudden death, beheading, maimed, mangled, wounded or torn to pieces alive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(That's another blinking eye demon ) 

[Nungali]

Yep.  That's why I warn people to not mess with the Spirit of the Valley.

 

Wow man !  Is that relavent.    Uncle Lewi said the same thing to me and added  " I'm serious ... you better take me serious !  There are things and forces out there that will literally rip your head off your body ... and you better believe me ! " 

 

Didnt know why he was going all adamant on me like that  ???   So am I am thinking , yeah yeah .... it all figurative symbolic stuff to do with totems and food supplies and mores and taboos and punishments.

 

But then .... 

 

About a week later, a friend who lives up the end of this valley tells me " I got stopped going home by a tree across the road, near my place (the road ends at his place) , not to far, so I decided to walk the rest of the way and come back with the chainsaw and tractor, then there was another tree across the road .... and another and another, and I am thinking, what the hell happened here, no storm or anything and everywhere else seems calm.   Then I get to my place - chaos ! Some type of willy-willy must have gone through it, you could see the narrow path of destruction, the fruit trees were ripped out of the ground with roots and earth attached and flung over the other side of the driveway,, the path went right through the house which was twisted 45 degrees off its foundations, one corner was stuck in the ground and the other hanging up in the air.  I could see where it came down and hit, and the path, it then went up the hill and made a road through the bush and now the top flat part of that hill is clear, I got a new paddock up there!   Then I guess it took off from there and flew away - nothing else was really damaged outside of that path."

 

- a group of guys, some cables, a tractor and winches actually twisted the house back into alignment and leveled it back in place , the only damage was the stuff inside that got broken and 3 windows.   

 

Weird shit !  

 

Another  time, in  totally burnt out bushland, a  'fire willy willy' came at us ... that was freaky ,   going along over totally burnt out fire break !   ... and it turns and heads towards us !  Freaky !  THis flaming roaring vortex getting faster and faster, making a weird sound too  !  *  

 

So, although I dont think 'bad spirits' will actually grab me and pull my head off ... I am very respectful of 'nature' and any 'valley spirits (nature or people )  !  

 

 

* 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I just recently learned about fire tornados and I think the first one I saw (on TV) was one in Australia.

 

And true, we hear the stories of old and think, "That's just myth." but then something happens and we have to rethink our conclusion.

 

Anyhow, the lesson is, "Don't push your luck."

[Nungali]

Imagine this coming at you, over blackened burnt ground, with no apparent fuel driving it ! 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Nungali

[3bob]

man's essential nature is the same as the essential nature in or of all beings, Atman/Brahman... the veils which are myriad (in number) are not lasting or definitive of that.

Edited May 14, 2016 by 3bob

[Karl]

Then you have never found ' Tsieh She ' - 'The Eye of the Demon" , 'The Star of Piled up Corpses' , 'Medusa's Third Eye', " "the Gorgon's head, a ghastly sight, deformed and dreadful, and a sign of woe." , the 'Blinking Demon', Ra's al Ghul, Caput Larvae, Rosh ha Satan, Lilith .... all different cultures names for the same star.

 

It causes misfortune, violence, decapitation, hanging, electrocution and mob violence, and gives a dogged and violent nature that causes death to the native or others. It is the most evil star in the heavens. Murder, sudden death, beheading, maimed, mangled, wounded or torn to pieces alive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(That's another blinking eye demon )

 

All I see is a beautiful star. It looks stunning. Light years away, it may already have expired.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Karl

[Marblehead]

man's essential nature is the same as the essential nature in or of all beings, Atman/Brahman... the veils which are myriad are not lasting or definitive of that.

Valid statement, I think.

 

We humans try to place our self "above" other living things but in essence, there is no difference.

[Karl]

Valid statement, I think.

 

We humans try to place our self "above" other living things but in essence, there is no difference.

 

In what context MH?

 

I'm confused by your use of the word 'above'.

 

We are certainly the apex predator on this planet and no other animal or object is capable of manipulating the environment as man does in order to improve his survival and happiness.

 

From an individual perspective we must choose to place our life above the life of every other life, that's a necessity regardless of whether our lives are above, or below the value of any other kind of thing.

 

 

[Marblehead]

In what context MH?

Note my use of the word "essence".  We are simply one of the Ten Thousand Things.  A product of evolution (the processes of Dao).

 

I'm confused by your use of the word 'above'.

Yes, that is a word with many connotations.

 

We are certainly the apex predator on this planet and no other animal or object is capable of manipulating the environment as man does in order to improve his survival and happiness.

This is true at this point in time.  A couple million years ago this was not true.  A couple million years from now it may not be true again.

 

Yes, we have capabilities far exceeding those of other animals on the planet.  However, some have stopped evolving because there was no need to go any further in order to secure survival.

 

We are still evolving.  Which means we are not yet all that we can be.  Where will it end?  Only after we have totally destroyed the human species?  Or perhaps when we finally realize that working together for a common cause is better than killing each other?

 

From an individual perspective we must choose to place our life above the life of every other life, that's a necessity regardless of whether our lives are above, or below the value of any other kind of thing.

This is true of all species in one way or another.  Many species view the common good over the individual good.  It's the way they have evolved. 

 

Yes, I am a selfish person.  Me first.  But then, I have also put myself in harm's way for the good of others.  Our evolution allows us to do that.  Some species have no choice.

 

And yes, I am still the center of my universe.  But I hold to my personal values.

 

Do I risk my life in order to save the life of a child even though that child may grow up to be another Hitler?  Choices.  That's what makes us different.  But not necessarily better.

[Karl]

That's somewhat of a confusing reply. I get the sense that you hold a position, but that it conflicts with what you know to be true.

 

I'm not going to push it though as that's likely counter productive.

[Jetsun]

It's been proven that man needs love and affection for the proper growth of our brain and nervous system and has a direct impact on the health of our immune system. We basically need it to survive and thrive. This essence of love is clearly more fundamental than violence, although violence is part of mans nature too, just not as foundational as love.

[Karl]

It's been proven that man needs love and affection for the proper growth of our brain and nervous system and has a direct impact on the health of our immune system. We basically need it to survive and thrive. This essence of love is clearly more fundamental than violence, although violence is part of mans nature too, just not as foundational as love.

That's an inversion of reality. Man loves something only if he can say 'I' love. That is primary. One does not receive love like a plant needing water. Instead we hold values that are predicated on our life as the primary value. When we find something that gives us a value then we love it. If it takes a value we hate it. We receive values from the things we love, but we must first feel worthy of love.

 

Violence is the opposite end of love. This is when we have things that remove values from us and we dislike that. Where those things are other humans then we act to defend those values by the use of force.

 

It's notable that those who have received values dishonestly, or as gifts/winnings, are far less concerned about the losses than those who have toiled hard and honestly with no one on which to rely. Those that have hidden their true selves from others in order to pretend there is love, those people never feel it. If they feel unworthy then they never accept themselves and are incapable of love.

 

Therefore we are inherently wired to love and hate because we are inherently wired to feel pleasure and pain. It's our conceptual reasoning that terms the experience love and hate on a sliding scale.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Karl

[Jetsun]

That's an inversion of reality. Man loves something only if he can say 'I' love. That is primary. One does not receive love like a plant needing water. Instead we hold values that are predicated on our life as the primary value. When we find something that gives us a value then we love it. If it takes a value we hate it. We receive values from the things we love, but we must first feel worthy of love.

 

Violence is the opposite end of love. This is when we have things that remove values from us and we dislike that. Where those things are other humans then we act to defend those values by the use of force.

 

It's notable that those who have received values dishonestly, or as gifts/winnings, are far less concerned about the losses than those who have toiled hard and honestly with no one on which to rely. Those that have hidden their true selves from others in order to pretend there is love, those people never feel it. If they feel unworthy then they never accept themselves and are incapable of love.

 

Therefore we are inherently wired to love and hate because we are inherently wired to feel pleasure and pain. It's our conceptual reasoning that terms the experience love and hate on a sliding scale.

In the context I was speaking from it is clear that love is foundational to our being before we have any concept of "I" or of deserving love, this is shown in the study of orphans in that those who receive very little love and attention as babies don't produce fully formed brains and have compromised nervous systems. We do need love like a flower needs water.

 

There is an unconditional love from the universe also, I expect you will discover that some time soon.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"We are certainly the apex predator on this planet and no other animal or object is capable of manipulating the environment as man does in order to improve his survival and happiness."

-----

 

That is the modern view disseminated by corporations to worker/consumers.

 

Of whom over 50% are clinically obese, 1 in 5 is autistic, over half are diabetic, 70% of them are on prescription medication, about half will get or have some form of cancer, and over half of all their marriages collapse or fail, etc, etc.

 

Their "survival and happiness" is actually the worst ever recorded for human beings living outside of natural disasters, floods, or outright war, etc.

-----
"From an individual perspective we must choose to place our life above the life of every other life, that's a necessity regardless of whether our lives are above, or below the value of any other kind of thing."

-----

 

Yeah - that's the kind of lie people are trained to believe now.

 

It isn't doing them any good.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Edited May 13, 2016 by vonkrankenhaus

[Karl]

Re:

-----

"We are certainly the apex predator on this planet and no other animal or object is capable of manipulating the environment as man does in order to improve his survival and happiness."

-----

 

That is the modern view disseminated by corporations to worker/consumers.

 

Of whom over 50% are clinically obese, 1 in 5 is autistic, over half are diabetic, 70% of them are on prescription medication, about half will get or have some form of cancer, and over half of all their marriages collapse or fail, etc, etc.

 

Their "survival and happiness" is actually the worst ever recorded for human beings living outside of natural disasters, floods, or outright war, etc.

 

-----

"From an individual perspective we must choose to place our life above the life of every other life, that's a necessity regardless of whether our lives are above, or below the value of any other kind of thing."

-----

 

Yeah - that's the kind of lie people are trained to believe now.

 

It isn't doing them any good.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

It isn't the kind of lie at all. People are trained to believe the exact opposite-that consumerism is 'a public good' that the standard of value is not ones life but whatever 'pleasure' can be extracted from the world. Our belief is in a society determined to have pleasure at almost any cost; that we can offset any sense of morality by giving over our responsibilities to a government who will decide what is right and collect taxes as if they were an atonement for our sin of consuming. One need only see the false paradigm of 'carbon sin' in which the wealthy pleasure seeker pays for the sin and discharges his guilt. It's all bollox.

[Karl]

In the context I was speaking from it is clear that love is foundational to our being before we have any concept of "I" or of deserving love, this is shown in the study of orphans in that those who receive very little love and attention as babies don't produce fully formed brains and have compromised nervous systems. We do need love like a flower needs water.

There is an unconditional love from the universe also, I expect you will discover that some time soon.

 

If you have no concept of 'I' then you cannot say 'I love'. Love becomes a floating concept, just a noise backed by nothing but mental fog. It is the mothers love of the child that is the key to creating the concept of love in the child's mind. A good mother will give unlimited time to learning through play and keeping the child feeling safe in order that it can play and learn. Hence an orphan is deprived of a mother and her role as guardian and educator-a massive disadvantage to mental development. It is literally like being thrown to the wolves.

 

Love is a concept and not a concrete. Love must be rooted in perceptual reality.

 

So, to say an orphan is deprived of love isn't true, although we can choose to see it that way, love is what drives the mother to give the time, attention and protection to her child so that it can develop fully. A child has not yet developed an adults understanding of love. Instead a child is wholly dependent on its parents for everything, it feels pleasure and pain, it only knows it is at risk if it feels uncomfortable in some way and it knows that the entities (parents) are necessary to combat the discomfort and provide pleasure.

[Jetsun]

If you have no concept of 'I' then you cannot say 'I love'. Love becomes a floating concept, just a noise backed by nothing but mental fog.

 

Hehe Karl you really need to get out of your head some time. So you are saying that young children who haven't yet fully formed a sense of "I" can't experience love? you have this all so backward.