Transgender Problem

[Karl]

Sad proof that belonging to one minority does not magically protect a person against small-minded and bigoted views towards another minority.

 

 

Or in your case 'majority'.

[dust]

Law rightly comes into play when that hate is acted out in ways that interfere with the freedom and dignity of another person.

 

Freedom, of course. But how much more dignity is there in buying an ice cream from someone who hates you?

 

 

 

In most places in the United States it´s no longer socially acceptable to be openly racist

 

Yeah. I'm not entirely convinced this is a good thing. Honesty usually wins with me. But perhaps the long-term greater good is served by disallowing discrimination.

[Bodhicitta]

One snip from Harris' article:

 

 

While I fervently support TGs’ rights to transition and to do so without

fear of reprisal, I believe that the whole phenomenon of switching

one’s gender is a mass delusion.

 

- See more at: http://review.antiochcollege.org/sacred-androgen-transgender-debate-daniel-harris#sthash.5Rzdmf4H.dpuf

[liminal_luke]

Bodhicitta,

 

Have you struggled with issues related to gender identity in your own life, or had people close to you struggle?  If not, I don´t see what captivates you so about this issue that you´d start a thread like this -- just to stir up trouble?

 

I don´t have any tattoos, and I´m mildly opposed to them.  I´d never get a tattoo and don´t see the appeal.  But I´d also never start a thread about the "tattoo problem" and link to essays talking about how tattoos are bad and tattood people delusional.  I just avoid going to ink parlors and paying for body art.  It´s not so hard.

 

What is it about transgender people that works people up so?

Edited May 12, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

Sounds like someone has been coaching you on rules for radicals LD. You have stopped participating in refutation and taken to playing to the crowd.

 

Personally I think the kind of liberal bigotry is typified by positive discrimination by a minuscule group of people who wish to dress up as the opposite sex. Where does it go next ? Will we have to accept animal sex-will hotels be forced to accept dogs, pigs, sheep and donkeys next- that a person is so convinced they are an animal that we should not only accept their behaviour, but will be forced by law to condone it. The mind boggles.

 

I also don't think that Bodhcitta has anything against transvestites and that you are pushing the argument that way because you have run out of coherent refutations.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Karl

[Bodhicitta]

Luke,

 

Karl touched on part of it.  

 

Maybe the common notion that Americans are always for the underdog, that plus my contrary nature and fondness for individual freedom and aversion to state or group control of the former, is also my motivation.  

 

Most importantly, Buddha taught that the one taste of his teachings is Freedom.  LIberation from totalitarian thought, speech & action control would be a cause I think Buddha would support.

 

So when I run across a brave person who goes against the PC tide, I applaud him and promote his views.  In most cases these turn out to be conservative or religious types, but Harris is a gay liberal and going against his crowd - huzzah for him!

[ralis]

 

Personally I think the kind of liberal bigotry is typified by positive discrimination by a minuscule group of people who wish to dress up as the opposite sex. Where does it go next ? Will we have to accept animal sex-will hotels be forced to accept dogs, pigs, sheep and donkeys next- that a person is so convinced they are an animal that we should not only accept their behavior, but will be forced by law to condone it. The mind boggles.

 

That is an outrageous rant! It is obvious that you have no understanding of transgenders and how such persons are being discriminated against in several states and to slight such persons as ones who just want to cross dress for political purposes is just plain absurd.  Further, to bring in the bestiality argument is absolutely laughable. Such an argument has been presented by right wing uneducated religious bigots.

[liminal_luke]

Maybe the common notion that Americans are always for the underdog, that plus my contrary nature and fondness for individual freedom and aversion to state or group control of the former, is also my motivation.  

 

Thanks for what I take as an honest straight-forward answer, Bodhicitta. Here, in the rather cloistered Daobums community, religious conservatives and objectivist philosophers are in the minority, I grant you.  So, in some bizarre twisted way, I can see how they might seem like the underdogs.  

 

Maybe I´m stuck in the past, remembering how oppressed I felt as a gay high school kid back in the 80´s.  Now we have gay marriage, and it´s a different time.  What use is it to even put on a gay pride parade anymore without the protesters?  There´s no drama.  We´re here, we´re queer...yawn.  

 

But no matter how PC things might look at the moment, I can assure you that transexuals are still very much the "underdog" in most of the US.  If you´re really fond of individual freedom and against state control, as you say, it´s not necessary to take up the mantle of the religious right just yet.

[roger]

My opinion is that the reason people are transgender is because they chose to come back as that before they were born.

 

Why would one make that choice? For the same universal reasons that one makes any choice concerning reincarnating: spiritual growth, joy, learning, to create opportunities, to serve others, because it may provide a sense of security......for GOOD reasons.

[Karl]

That is an outrageous rant! It is obvious that you have no understanding of transgenders and how such persons are being discriminated against in several states and to slight such persons as ones who just want to cross dress for political purposes is just plain absurd.  Further, to bring in the bestiality argument is absolutely laughable. Such an argument has been presented by right wing uneducated religious bigots.

 

Ah the old Alinsky outrage. LOL

 

I have no idea what you regard as discrimination, to whom it pertains, or in what form. Is it regular murders, beatings, burnings ? In our country no one is much bothered except to raise an eyebrow at some particularly bad conversion-although the town centre 'queens night' has been known to get out of hand- lots of fighting between the 'lasses' and sometimes the police are called when they stop cars and spread themselves across the bonnets causing damage. It can be a bit high spirited, but no one bats an eye.

 

I don't think you have any understanding of animal 'lovers'. We have had several programs promoting the idea of 'marriage' to their pets (who they often believe we're once human lovers in a past life). It's hardly outrageous to suggest this tiny group of will expect the same rights as all other groups.

 

It's a bit of a stretch to say that all want to dress for political purposes, but it's true to say that many liberals who are not transvestite wish to use it to batter other groups. Again, that's straight out of rules for radicals and the advancement of the political left who are intellectual atheist bigots.

 

I notice you aren't outraged when you cite 'uneducated religious bigots' as if that's OK. It's sounds like you are prejudiced and discriminating against religious people by the looks of things. The implications are that all religious people are racist morons and should be punished for being so. I seem to remember that another religious group was once blanketed with a similar prejudice.

[Bodhicitta]

I will not link to todays news, many sites have the story.  Obama is, by fiat, as often the case, telling school districts all over the USA to make each of their bathrooms open to any and all genders.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Bodhicitta

[Taoway]

I feel the rise synthetic estrogenic chemicals in food water and the environment has an impact on this sort of thing.

[dust]

I will not link to todays news, many sites have the story.  Obama is, by fiat, as often the case, telling school districts all over the USA to make each of their bathrooms open to any and all genders.

 

That's OK, I will.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/12/politics/transgender-bathrooms-obama-administration/

 

No, not telling schools to make bathrooms "open to any and all genders", but to 'ensure that "transgender students enjoy a supportive and nondiscriminatory school environment"'

 

You have a problem with this?

[ralis]

I feel the rise synthetic estrogenic chemicals in food water and the environment has an impact on this sort of thing.

 

Transgender has been studied by cultural anthropologists and the findings conclude that it transcends all cultures and is not a contemporary political movement or caused by the water supply. There are specific occurrences where shamans are transgender as well as the transgender Aravanis.

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by ralis

[Bodhicitta]

Here is the Depts. of Justice & Education's 'guidance'; not surprisingly, far more than pooping in peace is involved:

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-departments-justice-and-education-release-joint-guidance-help-schools-ensure-civil-rights

[ralis]

Here is the Depts. of Justice & Education's 'guidance'; not surprisingly, far more than pooping in peace is involved:

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-departments-justice-and-education-release-joint-guidance-help-schools-ensure-civil-rights

 

Seems as though you have a problem with civil rights enforcement? If so, why? Texas and North Carolina have vowed not to enforce civil rights.

 

There are many that are afraid of what they don't understand or are even afraid of their own sexuality and what that means. Freud theorized that babies are predisposed to bisexuality and at some juncture, specific biological functions determine what ones sexual expression will be.

[dust]

Here is the Depts. of Justice & Education's 'guidance'; not surprisingly, far more than pooping in peace is involved

 

We have varying opinions on what makes transgender people so. Some are clearly more inclined than others to believe that it is not a 'legitimate' state of being. You, I think, believe transgenderism is a psychological issue; others believe transgender people are biologically determined to be so -- that their sex was 'mis-assigned' somewhere along the way. This is all pretty much irrelevant when it comes to such guidelines.

 

Whatever your belief about the causes or legitimacy of transgenderism, there can be no allowance for abuse, bullying, or other mental or physical violence towards transgender people. This is even more important in school. There is no excuse. Young people above all must be protected. It is not the place of individual schools or teachers to decide who is acceptable; every student should be respected as a student. Any issues they have relating to their gender identity should be dealt with outside of school, by people with the experience to handle it.

 

If you can form a coherent argument against this guidance (rather than the usual snide comments of someone with an axe to grind and no logical basis for his opinions), I will pay attention, and others might too. Otherwise, I think you'd do best to leave it alone.

Edited May 13, 2016 by dustybeijing

[liminal_luke]

Whatever your belief about the causes or legitimacy of transgenderism, there can be no allowance for abuse, bullying, or other mental or physical violence towards transgender people. This is even more important in school. There is no excuse. Young people above all must be protected. It is not the place of individual schools or teachers to decide who is acceptable; every student should be respected as a student. Any issues they have relating to their gender identity should be dealt with outside of school, by people with the experience to handle it.

 

To my thinking, there are two possible areas of inquiry.  The first is scientific.  What causes transgenderism?  Is there involvement in hormones, early child experience, a babies experience in the womb...and so on.  Whatever answers we have so far are likely preliminary, subject to further research findings.

 

The second area of inquiry -- of far more interest to me -- is kindnesss.  How can we best treat people with kindness and compassion?  Here the path forward seems pretty simple: it takes nothing away from other students to allow a transgender student to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity or to allow the student to play volleyball with other students they identify with.  Indeed, it´s a great lesson for those students in tolerance and acceptance.  And, for the transgender student, it´s a great kindness.

Edited May 13, 2016 by liminal_luke

[dust]

Exactly

[Bodhicitta]

Your interest (the majority here) or support of my posts is of no concern.  Nor will I shut up (great argument there).

 

I will mention though that school violence is pervasive.  Far more damage, physical and psychic, is done to teachers, latinos, blacks, religious kids etc.  than the very few trans.

 

In all cases this could be solved with local police, school boards and principals.  The nanny state is not needed and the more reliance progressives put on the feds, the less will locals care.  Because 1) they will be sued or threatened no matter what and 2) why bother when the Dept. of Education will take over (sooner or later) every aspect of poor old 'local control' of education.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Bodhicitta

[liminal_luke]

I will mention though that school violence is pervasive.  Far more damage, physical and psychic, is done to teachers, latinos, blacks, religious kids etc.  than the very few trans.

 

I agree that schools should be a safe and welcoming environment for all students.  What´s different about the trans issue right now is that our society is presently in the process of establishing legal protections for transgender people where they didn´t exist before.  This is the cutting edge of where we are right now civil-rights wise.  The legal protections transgender people are seeking now already exist for blacks, latinos, people of different religious faiths, etc. It doesn´t mean there´s no discrimination, but as a society we´ve stood up and said the discrimination is wrong.  That´s something that´s just now happening for transgender people.

 

I agree that there´s less violence against transgender kids than, say, black kids.  But that doesn´t mean we should shut our eyes and say it´s such a small problem it´s not worthy of our attention.  We need to make schools for everyone. 

[steve]

We have varying opinions on what makes transgender people so. Some are clearly more inclined than others to believe that it is not a 'legitimate' state of being. You, I think, believe transgenderism is a psychological issue; others believe transgender people are biologically determined to be so -- that their sex was 'mis-assigned' somewhere along the way. This is all pretty much irrelevant when it comes to such guidelines.

 

I'll take it a step further and say it's pretty much irrelevant, period.

Psychological, biological, choice, I see little difference.

It may be useful to investigate if you are transgender, a close loved one is, or you are a researcher, or care provider.

Otherwise, what's the difference?

 

Human beings are deserving of respect, regardless of gender.

It's my right to live my life as I see fit, it is not my right to expect you to live your life as I see fit.

 

There is far too much ado about sex and gender.

It's shocking how closed minded and insensitive we can be, especially for folks who claim to be interested in spirituality.

Edited May 13, 2016 by steve

[thelerner]

Here is the Depts. of Justice & Education's 'guidance'; not surprisingly, far more than pooping in peace is involved:

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-departments-justice-and-education-release-joint-guidance-help-schools-ensure-civil-rights

eyeballing it quickly I couldn't find the part where washrooms were mentioned and 'mandated'.  Could you cut and paste to that part? 

 

I don't like unfunded mandates but don't like discrimination either.   I kinda wish we had firm numbers on how many people are being affected by this.  If its truly small enough, let'em fill out paperwork and allow use the teachers washroom.

 

Seems to me the transgendered are going to be screwed whatever choice they make.  Look like a guy and enter the girls washroom is going to get you stares at best, insults at worst. Maybe worse the other way too.  Schools will have to investigate the numbers and make the best decision.

 

Otherwise in smaller venues I'm seeing more single person washrooms for either sex.  Which works fine for me.  Might not work for schools though.   Family washroom have popped up all over in larger venues.  Still.. don't like wasting school money unnecessarily. 

 

The sometimes brilliant, sometimes not, often foul mouthed cartoon South Park has already investigated the problem and might give insights.  Its the only show I know of thats looked at the issue.

The Cissy in Season 18 Episode 3

 

Couldn't find a good video on it.  There's this:

[steve]

Your interest (the majority here) or support of my posts is of no concern.  Nor will I shut up (great argument there).

 

I will mention though that school violence is pervasive.  Far more damage, physical and psychic, is done to teachers, latinos, blacks, religious kids etc.  than the very few trans.

In all cases this could be solved with local police, school boards and principals.  The nanny state is not needed and the more reliance progressives put on the feds, the less will locals care.  Because 1) they will be sued or threatened no matter what and 2) why bother when the Dept. of Education will take over (sooner or later) every aspect of poor old 'local control' of education.

 

You are sadly misinformed. 

 

There is no group with a higher incidence of being victims of hate crimes and sexual assault than the transgender community.

There may be fewer in the population but they exponentially more likely to be victimized:

http://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

http://www.eusccr.com/10.%20national%20center%20for%20transgender%20equality.pdf

https://www.glsen.org/sites/default/files/Harsh%20Realities.pdf

 

This cannot be solved by local police, school board, and principals.

If it could, it would have already been solved - this is not a new problem.

In fact, many are victimized in police custody. 

 

It takes little effort to educate oneself on this topic if one has an open mind. 

[Karl]

I agree that schools should be a safe and welcoming environment for all students. What´s different about the trans issue right now is that our society is presently in the process of establishing legal protections for transgender people where they didn´t exist before. This is the cutting edge of where we are right now civil-rights wise. The legal protections transgender people are seeking now already exist for blacks, latinos, people of different religious faiths, etc. It doesn´t mean there´s no discrimination, but as a society we´ve stood up and said the discrimination is wrong. That´s something that´s just now happening for transgender people.

 

I agree that there´s less violence against transgender kids than, say, black kids. But that doesn´t mean we should shut our eyes and say it´s such a small problem it´s not worthy of our attention. We need to make schools for everyone.

 

No, no. 'Society' has not 'stood up' at all. Instead a group of liberals have forced positive discrimination for a tiny minority onto the majority. Our experience in the UK is the violence against blacks is committed by other blacks and yet it is whites that are accused of racism. Crazy. Same as feminists that are moaning about transvestites using their toilets/changing rooms and feminist/diversity liberals welcoming immigrants now complaining of getting raped by immigrants. None of that is very suprising, even at college the Pakistanis were at war with the Indians and the Arabs targeted the Jews-Meanwhile Arabs and Black Muslims drop homosexuals out of buildings, rape children and stone women to death. The white western population are called bigots if the object to any of this going on in our own countries.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Karl