Oneironaut

Are "hard" martial arts an obstruction for those on the path of Neidan?

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I want to take my Neidan practices serious yet at the same time I'm being pulled in another direction towards the martial arts. Boxing & judo to be more specific. The issue I'm taking with these martial arts pertains to my long term health. It's obvious that repetitive blunt trauma to the head and body or being put through ridiculously brutal throws (and that's an understatement) isn't the best way to approach optimal health in the long term. The human body can take a beating but it's far from unbreakable. With that in mind it seems as if those martial arts run contrary to what practitioners of neidan aim to achieve in terms of a healthy mind, body and longevity in order to complete the ultimate goal of developing a spirit body which will survive past the time of one's passing. I haven't bumped into anything condemning these hard martial arts but it seems to me like all neidan practitioners are into tai-chi. The thing is I don't trust tai chi AT ALL in terms of effectiveness. 

 

So my questions are: 

 

1) Can neidan practitioners engage in martial arts such as boxing & judo and not hamper their spiritual progress?

 

2) Why does anyone do tai chi in the first place? It seems to me like it will get their practitioners killed. I don't mean to sound snide or obnoxious but does tai chi actually WORK? 

 

I'm obviously confused at this point in my life and could use some help in gathering my thoughts. 

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Your "I don't trust".... attitude is understandable.

 

there's a lot of old skool posters on thetaobums who insist that the qi stuff is fake until they see replicable standardized Western science proof - tested repeatedly under controlled conditions, blah blah blah.

 

Then there's some more of us more open-minded people who say - o.k. you got some people making claims, let's go out and see for ourselves if this stuff is real!

 

Guess what we discover? Well - I guess you're gonna have to do that yourself aren't you! haha.

 

But first of all consider this.

 

1) This stuff is very rare but it is indeed real.

 

Now then if you can accept that possibility let's not jump into some concrete information.

 

 

Look at this 90 year old Shaolin qigong master (insert fancy Chinese term here, in your case it appears to be Neidan).

 

His name is Haidan. He was the teacher of Yan Xin.

 

So that video is him doing a one-finger hand stand.

 

Have you seen any real kungfu masters do one-finger hand stands?

 

Maybe there is one out there.

 

But that is just the beginning.

 

that video - and sure some think it's fake - but again consider the above - have you gone out to experience these people for yourself?

 

I have! So I know it's real.

 

O.K. so that video is a Shaolin training video.

 

What does it also show? you can watch the whole video - the Haidan section is at the end.

 

He throws people around - like they fly off - and with his one finger he also busts open thick cow leather hide punching bags - so the sand flies out.

 

Have you seen any "hard" kungfu masters do that?

 

O.K. maybe you have. I don't know.

 

I can give more examples.

 

The question is, are you willing to consider investigating this stuff on your own.

 

I'm not saying that this stuff can even be found - by you personally.

 

It's very difficult to find people who have this skill.

 

Even if they do they may not demonstrate it.

 

For example the qigong master I know - I was told by another qigong master - that the original qigong master did indeed blast apart marble block - just using his qi energy. But he only did it once because it was too violent.

 

O.K. so the very first qigong master I experienced (Oh I'm sorry - maybe only the term "Neidan" is real to you). haha. - the first one was Effie P. Chow.

 

She - and again I experienced her energy directly so I know she's real and at the end of the night - a big fat white lady wandered in - a security guard, totally befuddled, "Just wondering what's going on in here because the fuse got blown in the room behind you."

 

HILARIOUS. Everyone was pretty much gone - this was at a small local private university.

 

It wasn't part of a show. o.k. I was so skeptical before I went to that event I called to ask for a reduced admission price. I got half off - I paid $10. I could feel strong qi pushing my hands apart after Effie Chow filled the room with qi.

 

Now Effie shared how if some muscle man is after her or something - she can take the person's strength and add it to her own!

 

Now maybe you don't believe her. There happens to be demonstrations of her doing this - on youtube.

 

So maybe that doesn't impress you .  Maybe you want to see her in a ring - fighting some mixed martial artist or something. Like that fake Japanese dude who got his ass kicked. haha.

 

Yes there are fake dudes out there (and nothing against the Japanese. . I won't go there). haha.

 

O.K. so let's consider Yan Xin, the student of Haidan.

 

Apparently the top kungfu master of Japan challenged Yan Xin to a fight. The Japanese dude could not even touch Yan Xin - his energy just made the dude fly away.

 

Now we can't believe this stuff right?

 

For example there is the Tai Chi master on the Bill Moyer's video.

 

I looked into him after people wondering if he was real.

 

His book is sold - on Amazon - I google reviewed it, etc.

 

So it turns out that Jet Li - admittedly a real trained kungfu master right? Jet Li went to study with that Tai Chi master.

 

What did the Tai Chi master say? You have to show up every morning at 5 am for three years before I even demonstrate my power on you.

 

Now Jet Li couldn't make that kind of commitment.

 

But that's what we're talking about here.

I'm talking about this dude.

 

So that Tai Chi master says he doesn't show his power on anyone else unless they first show up for 3 years every day. Why? because his energy is too dangerous otherwise and he doesn't want to hurt the person.

 

Sounds like bogus right? Like more likely he needs to brainwash the poor dude so their will power caves in and they submit to whatever the master wants them to do - but it won't work on some just stranger martial artist.

 

Right? I mean consider that fake Chicago black belt teacher who claims he can do his death touch or whatever - Fa Jing I think the Tai Chi people call it.

 

I know we've had lots of threads on that topic here on thetaobums.

 

Does anyone really think some Western white teacher can really develop this skill? Maybe he's got it on some level but not the real thing.

 

O.K. for example the qigong master I was talking about - he shared with me - the original qigong master shared how they brought this Chinese Tai Chi master to the U.S. - and that dude was very real. The qigong master said the Tai Chi master could just throw the qigong master around and the TAi Chi master was very powerful!

 

So the thing to realize is that a qigong master focuses on shen energy for spirit travel - doing yin shen healing whereas as tai Chi master focuses on qi energy for force.

 

The qi as force guides the spirit - but for a qigong master it is the shen information spirit that does the healing. I actually saw the qigong master sending out yin shen after  yin shen - out of his head.

 

So he is probably not using as much qi energy but just enough qi to guide the yin shen spirit information to then heal a person.

 

So if a person's qi intentions are fighting the shen energy - it is possible for a person's qi to resist the healing or resist whatever else the shen energy wants to do.

 

On the other hand if the qigong master uses a lot of qi with the shen - then it can be dangerous or too powerful.

 

So it's a matter of balance. For example in that John Chang famous video - it says he just creates a yin energy field to communicate with the spirit embedded in the magical dagger and then the dagger moves because the spirit is activated.

 

But when he does his healing he is using more qi to zap people.

 

Whereas the qigong master doesn't zap people but rather does a deep shen soul healing.

 

In other words it's a higher frequency energy but has less amplitude.

 

 

So there's Effie Chow demonstrating "empty force" power.

 

Now I was told by the qigong master that the real tai chi masters who have this ability - they actually keep it secret - why? Because they want to store up their energy. They don't want to be unnecessarily challenged since it's a waste of their energy.

 

It takes a lot of training to build up that energy.

 

Haidan, the Shaolin monk, was known as the sleepless monk - he just meditated in full lotus all night long to build up his energy.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/101462079/Yan-Xin-Secrets-Benefits-of-Internal-Qigong-Cultivation#scribd

 

So this book by Yan Xin details how his energy has interacted with hard martial arts.

 

But there are most demonstrations on youtube.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2013/11/blog-post.html

 

I actually compiled a list of videos on my blog.

 

I was looking for one. It should be on my blog but maybe it got taken down from youtube....

 

 

Here it is - from my blog - Iron Palm of Shaolin - Master Yao.

 

more vids on my blog.

 

So I'm not saying that Neidan (insert fancy Chinese term here) is your answer for increasing your martial arts training.

 

Subtle energy has to be stored up into qi - or Jing as it's called inTai Chi - and storing up and controlling this energy is very difficult - that's why the advanced training is done in secret, in monasteries, in retreat, etc.

 

But if you want to trust it or not - depends on how willing you are to go out to discover it yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1) Nothing wrong with those things. If you learn internal stuff you can put it into the "container" of boxing/judo/whatever. Some arts go internal>external and some the other way around. Doesn't matter.

 

2) Tai chi takes maybe 10 years to get good enough to apply it. Where hard styles progress quickly in the beginning and hit diminishing returns tai chi starts out with almost no progress martially for a long time but eventually has the potential to massively overtake hard styles later on. Depends what you want. If you want to understand it then you'll have to find a master and feel it. Otherwise you won't understand.

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Re:

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"1) Can neidan practitioners engage in martial arts such as boxing & judo and not hamper their spiritual progress?"

-----

 

Yes. And other activities.

 

There are also other forms of martail art training that you may find closer to working with these ideas than Judo or Boxing - like some of the Shaolin-based Chinese Gongfu systems which feature Iron Shirt training as part of their basics. Many times these will include Neigong training as part of advancement. Each family/style/school may have different parts, and each teacher may have more or less of this, so actually meeting students and teachers is most informative.

 

-----

"2) Why does anyone do tai chi in the first place? It seems to me like it will get their practitioners killed. I don't mean to sound snide or obnoxious but does tai chi actually WORK?"

-----

 

Again, since your emphasis right now seem to be about martial art ability, take a look at the various "family" or "school" Gongfu styles first. If anything, training in these will show you what you may need to know to understand why you might eventually doing Tai Chi practices or not.

 

Tai Chi will wait for you to see it.

 

And yes - Tai Chi "works".

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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Why would one wish to move instead of remaining still?

OK, perhaps that is simple enough to answer.

 

But then, let us imagine the road upon which one moves - something that can only be developed for one's self, internally.

Why would one wish to travel upon a smooth road rather than a bumpy one?

It would take time to properly smooth a road and build a vehicle with wheels able to utilize this smoothness. A lot of time and effort, towards results that are only speculated upon.

 

Just like a road for cars that must be built (and the cars invented), the path of taiji, or any other internally focused movement art, at first one begins slowly, so as to dissolve blockages, develop the intention and invite the shaping of one's body-mind-spirit into a container that may contain the energy and let it flow. This takes time, a lot of time in which one lacks any consistent connection to the changes or awareness of how they are developing. But, over this time, one begins to feel some changes, and begins to deeply understand that things are definitely happening within.

 

So perhaps now we've cleared away enough of the obstacles blocking our road from being built. And now we begin to fill the energy within this container, and invite it to expand from our center to our extremities, and then to return back to our center. The movements of taiji, a stepping forward and reaching out, then returning - the form unfolds allowing many expansions and returns, gradually inviting the energy to flow along the unique pathways within the body that have been gradually becoming more and more clear. And our road begins to get built. In time, the road will complete, and will spontaneously connect as one, the energy full and flowing on its own.

 

Now.... how might this assist with neidan? ^_^

And.... how might getting knocked in the head help neidan?

 

With training, perhaps one learns to open the meridians in the head, and the body filled with energy, develop the ability to energetically protect the head (or any area) from taking damage from this impact. But is one likely to develop this long-term skill in a discipline that involves getting knocked around a lot? The dissolving process which leads to development of energetic flow is held back by too much jostling around. How can a stream follow the same course and develop into a river when there are constant earthquakes?

Edited by Daeluin
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For the OP I'll say that boxing and judo when trained properly are not very dangerous and can teach you some very useful skills as a precursor to internal martial arts. If you are not physically fit already then the internal arts will take a lot longer to learn and use. Many train arts like boxing and judo too hard not understanding that there is a difference between training, sparring, and competition. If you're not going for competitive purposes there should be no reason for you be injured unless someone has made a mistake.

 

Also taiji's original focus was cutting the legs off horses. Imagine a bunch of bandits on horseback are raiding the caravan you're guarding or are descending on your village. You have a guan dao in your hands. Is it better to wait for the horseman to rush into your space or meet them yourself? It takes less energy to swing a guan dao with enough force if you wait for them. Many forget that the empty hand is just training for the body - it's cutting people to pieces that was often the true applications of past masters' arts.

Here is a version of the Chen taiji which is still not as openly taught.

 

2) Tai chi takes maybe 10 years to get good enough to apply it. Where hard styles progress quickly in the beginning and hit diminishing returns tai chi starts out with almost no progress martially for a long time but eventually has the potential to massively overtake hard styles later on. Depends what you want. If you want to understand it then you'll have to find a master and feel it. Otherwise you won't understand.


Eh? Taiji should be martially applicable from the start. It's outer form is very similar to Taizu Chang Quan, Shaolin Rou Quan,  et cetera. So many martial applications but some won't work until a certain amount of neigong is burned into the spine. Others will become supercharged. Taiji is not just throws, close in grappling, and joint locks - it can also be a LONG striking art as well. The issue is largely a teacher's experience and focus. I am currently learning xingyi which is often considered the more aggressive sister of taiji and I'll say from my perspective that this line of the art is more internal than the Chen taiji I used to practice.

Are you learning martial arts to be a fighter? If you have no real interest in fighting but only cultivation and health then don't bother putting the time in.

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Eh? Taiji should be martially applicable from the start. It's outer form is very similar to Taizu Chang Quan, Shaolin Rou Quan,  et cetera. So many martial applications but some won't work until a certain amount of neigong is burned into the spine. Others will become supercharged. Taiji is not just throws, close in grappling, and joint locks - it can also be a LONG striking art as well. The issue is largely a teacher's experience and focus. I am currently learning xingyi which is often considered the more aggressive sister of taiji and I'll say from my perspective that this line of the art is more internal than the Chen taiji I used to practice.

 

Are you learning martial arts to be a fighter? If you have no real interest in fighting but only cultivation and health then don't bother putting the time in.

I think he means the "internal" aspect of Taiji Quan. It's not about joint locks and close quarter grappling etc. It is about issuing power - fajin, being able to apply long power, short power, cold power, the ability to end a fight before it becomes a fight (knock your opponent out with one touch)

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I want to take my Neidan practices serious yet at the same time I'm being pulled in another direction towards the martial arts. Boxing & judo to be more specific. The issue I'm taking with these martial arts pertains to my long term health. It's obvious that repetitive blunt trauma to the head and body or being put through ridiculously brutal throws (and that's an understatement) isn't the best way to approach optimal health in the long term. The human body can take a beating but it's far from unbreakable. With that in mind it seems as if those martial arts run contrary to what practitioners of neidan aim to achieve in terms of a healthy mind, body and longevity in order to complete the ultimate goal of developing a spirit body which will survive past the time of one's passing. I haven't bumped into anything condemning these hard martial arts but it seems to me like all neidan practitioners are into tai-chi. The thing is I don't trust tai chi AT ALL in terms of effectiveness. 

 

So my questions are: 

 

1) Can neidan practitioners engage in martial arts such as boxing & judo and not hamper their spiritual progress?

 

2) Why does anyone do tai chi in the first place? It seems to me like it will get their practitioners killed. I don't mean to sound snide or obnoxious but does tai chi actually WORK? 

 

I'm obviously confused at this point in my life and could use some help in gathering my thoughts. 

You need to meet someone who actually knows Tai Chi. There are many who know the external form, but only a few who know the internal aspect of tai chi. The kind of stuff that allows a 120-lb man knock 200+ lbs of weight into a wall 3-5 feet away with two fingers applied from a distance of less than one-inch from the body. Or knock out an antagonist cold for 20 minutes by tapping them on their head...

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I was training in two different styles of Karate for a number of years first, before I took up Aikido, and later Taiji. Based on that, I would like to share the following:

Since I have always been interested in the self-defence aspects of the martial arts, it was worthwhile practicing hard styles at a certain stage of my development. Folks who only do internal arts often have little understanding of what is happening in real fights.

That said, it is a wrong assumption that training hard styles would automatically make you able to defend yourself. They are typically taught in a way that prepares you rather for a contest than for a realistic "anything goes" situation. Just face an experienced streetfighter in a "competition stance" (physically and psychologically speaking) and see what happens...

As far as chi development is concerned, the internal arts are more valuable; they can be considered as forms of neidan/neigong in their own right.

But so much depends on the particular school that you are going to.

My Taiji teacher was Erle Montaigue, who was able to reconcile chi development with some of the most useful self-defence training I have ever encountered.



In conclusion, what I recommend most is to stay open, follow your intuition and learn about different approaches. What I am practicing now is my own synthesis of Karate, Aikido, Kenpo and Taiji. Edited by Michael Sternbach
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Eh? Taiji should be martially applicable from the start.

 

If you aren't doing it internally you aren't doing tai chi. You can apply it from the start but you'll get your ass kicked. Something like Xingyi is much easier to apply from the beginning because you can start out muscularly due to the nature of it's directness.

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A teacher that is a fighter worth his salt should teach you fighting applications from the beginning regardless of how well one has "internalized" taiji. Simple internal power generation methods that are quick to assimilate and use exist. It's a style of gong fu like many others from Northern China that has soft and hard training. Its origins are humble, so much so that the literal translation of its birthplace is Chen family ditch. Some groups after its exposure to the capital took the soft side of it and focused on that. Taiji is not the Grand Ultimate - that's a later addition of marketing and cultural milieu.

 

How many real fights have you been in much less since you've started learning taiji? How many tussles have you been in with others outside of your school that have skill? I mix it up with people that do wing chun, jujutsu, Shaolin, boxing, and other styles of gong fu. Injuries happen in real life and the super duper optimal internal is not always possible. Self-development and an actual fight are different things. What will you fall back on when you are too injured to internal? While a good chunk of my time is spent here in front of the monitor every day I am not just a keyboard cowboy. I grew up in one of the most violent places in the USA and while I may fight and lose at least I fight with my arts.

The xingyi I am learning now is not something I can muscle, I am learning the theory of its power generation. This is not the regular ol' xingyi you see on YouTube - this is the general's art taught by a true sage. My teacher has said that he's just continuing my education, not making me go through all of elementary school again. 

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Your asking quite valid questions, it's important to look at whatever art your pursuing and ask yourself, "will I be able to defend myself effectively when I'm 80 years old?."

 

Tai Chi is an effective martial art. But it's been popularized to such a degree that it's quite rare to find a teacher whom knows the practical methods of defense. Luckily there are other internal martial arts that are quite effective and will enhance your health rather than destroy your joints like many hard styles do.

 

1. Xing Yi

2. Bagua

3. Silat (my favorite)

4. Bujinkan

5. Hoshin Budo

 

-And hundreds of others that I'm sure are missing from this list. These are what Im most familiar with. Hope you find a great teacher. Best of luck.

Edited by OldChi
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A teacher that is a fighter worth his salt should teach you fighting applications from the beginning regardless of how well one has "internalized" taiji. Simple internal power generation methods that are quick to assimilate and use exist. It's a style of gong fu like many others from Northern China that has soft and hard training. Its origins are humble, so much so that the literal translation of its birthplace is Chen family ditch. Some groups after its exposure to the capital took the soft side of it and focused on that.

 

When someone of value should do things a certain way, it often invites those who value that which should be done another way. :P

 

I'd simply advise caution when looking for a teacher that emphasizes fighting application - a strong approach to internal and external is great, but there are also those who teach the external without knowing the internal.

 

On the other hand, certainly it helps one's pathways to develop when one understands the application and is able to do solo work as though engaged with an invisible opponent.

 

Taiji is not the Grand Ultimate - that's a later addition of marketing and cultural milieu.

 

Taiji pre-exists taijiquan, but I gather what you are saying is that taijiquan developed and existed before receiving this name.

 

How many real fights have you been in much less since you've started learning taiji? How many tussles have you been in with others outside of your school that have skill? I mix it up with people that do wing chun, jujutsu, Shaolin, boxing, and other styles of gong fu. Injuries happen in real life and the super duper optimal internal is not always possible. Self-development and an actual fight are different things. What will you fall back on when you are too injured to internal? While a good chunk of my time is spent here in front of the monitor every day I am not just a keyboard cowboy. I grew up in one of the most violent places in the USA and while I may fight and lose at least I fight with my arts.

 

I started learning taijiquan without any interest in fighting or self-defense. One day my teacher shared a story.... when one is self-realized one may unveil the internal energy that has developed through the eyes, and any would be opponent would no longer have interest in pursuing a fight. And on that level, when two masters come together, it is more a matter of waiting for an opening - it is clear to both when one has found the opening, and rarely is follow-through necessary to prove that point. The opening is found within the other's mind.

 

The xingyi I am learning now is not something I can muscle, I am learning the theory of its power generation. This is not the regular ol' xingyi you see on YouTube - this is the general's art taught by a true sage. My teacher has said that he's just continuing my education, not making me go through all of elementary school again. 

 

Nice!

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Re:

-----

 

 

So there's Effie Chow demonstrating "empty force" power."

-----

 

I wonder: Can anyone here see what she is really doing?

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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I started learning taijiquan without any interest in fighting or self-defense. One day my teacher shared a story.... when one is self-realized one may unveil the internal energy that has developed through the eyes, and any would be opponent would no longer have interest in pursuing a fight. And on that level, when two masters come together, it is more a matter of waiting for an opening - it is clear to both when one has found the opening, and rarely is follow-through necessary to prove that point. The opening is found within the other's mind.

 

I call shenanigans. I've driven away more than my share of cowards with a look. However, there may come a time when you face someone who is skilled but practices something else entirely, whose only interest IS fighting, not the internals. Then you have to throw down because their own inner energy is high enough.

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I'm posting a video of my teacher doing a 2-finger push on another student. First time I met him, he did something similar while both his heels were hanging off a flight of stairs going down into his basement and sent me flying into a door 3-4 feet behind me. I am 204 lbs, he is 120 lbs.

 

 

 

 

I've seen him do far more "unbelievable" things, such as control another person completely while just touching him. It looks fake, but it's very real. 

 

Or this one for instance, where he cuts through another person's physical strength using internal energy. It seems like it is physical, but that's because we're seeing the effect. When he does it, it feels surreal because there's no way a 120 lb person can move 200 lbs of mass coming at him with force back so effortlessly...

 

 

 

Edited by dwai
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Yup I've seen similar things and done them to people myself.  My first taiji teacher was 4'10" and 105lbs. He picked me up and tossed me about 10 feet with little effort and that's why I wanted to learn taiji. After a few months learning from him I watched him palm strike without windup into a guy's chest and watched the guy who was 6'3" crumple. I'm not saying that internal isn't different, that's it's not effective. Rather it is NOT the be all, end all that people make it out to be here and other places.

 

I've only met one person so far whose skill internally is such that he has truly embodied it without effort and can teach it. I'm learning from him now. We have to remember that this is a consensus reality and that there are others whose development is different, who have equally strong will and/or energy, and will not always comply. This is why taiji players are often embarrassed when they fight - they have a different skillset but that does not make them invincible. Also, sometimes a fight is just fucking fun.

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Yup I've seen similar things and done them to people myself.  My first taiji teacher was 4'10" and 105lbs. He picked me up and tossed me about 10 feet with little effort and that's why I wanted to learn taiji. After a few months learning from him I watched him palm strike without windup into a guy's chest and watched the guy who was 6'3" crumple. I'm not saying that internal isn't different, that's it's not effective. Rather it is NOT the be all, end all that people make it out to be here and other places.

 

I've only met one person so far whose skill internally is such that he has truly embodied it without effort and can teach it. I'm learning from him now. We have to remember that this is a consensus reality and that there are others whose development is different, who have equally strong will and/or energy, and will not always comply. This is why taiji players are often embarrassed when they fight - they have a different skillset but that does not make them invincible. Also, sometimes a fight is just fucking fun.

Yeah my teacher is like that. He is a Martial Artist who transcended The Martial Arts :)

He teaches not just via words and action, but also energetically.

 

I chose to learn Taiji to learn how to develop and generate internal power and reduce physical effort needed to fight. But it became about internal practice, energetics and how to apply them in my life (in all aspects). 

 

IMHO, if someone starts learning Taiji without the background of other MA, it might be easier for them to learn the internal works. Training in the Hard MA hard-codes things into our muscle memory and brains that are counter-productive in internal MA. I won't know of course, because my learning time was two fold - first unlearning the hard MA stuff, and then learning internal stuff. I don't know if that makes sense or not...

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thought I could share something I saw on Facebook but looks like there's no way to do that

Edited by dwai

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I call shenanigans. I've driven away more than my share of cowards with a look. However, there may come a time when you face someone who is skilled but practices something else entirely, whose only interest IS fighting, not the internals. Then you have to throw down because their own inner energy is high enough.

 

Oh yes, this is all relative. The idea here is that once one reaches a level of true mastery, one has also mastered the spiritual work as well. What need is there to defend against those who have found peace? And the others can be scared off with a look.

 

In any case, it sounds like fighting is fun for you! I'm not interested in fighting with you, just sharing. I like your perspective too!

 

Edit: I don't mean to imply that a true master cannot be defeated by someone else. You are right - there are many operations, and my example is very simplistic. That said, a true master is more likely to be working with mysterious power, and slipping between the edges of polarity while working on a higher level of refinement. Such a one is unlikely to encounter challenges that cannot be dealt with by flowing with the dao.

Edited by Daeluin
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I think the basic question itself is confused.

 

 

Quote

 

() 內勁是神意氣的化合 不是神意氣的集中

(Ten) Neijin Is Harmonizing Shen Yi Qi, and Not Concentrating Shen Yi Qi

編者按: 汪永泉老師對內勁兒的本質及其和力的區別作了專門講述。這是非常重要的。有些人沒有弄

、 意、氣的化合不是神、 意、氣的集中。

Neijin, or in this case, Tai Chi Jin, comes from harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi (神氣, ‘spirit’, mind­intent, and Qi), and not from concentrating Shen, Yi, and Qi.

一般理解所謂勁兒是把本身的神誤把力當成勁兒走入歧途。

Editor: Teacher Wang Yongquan said that there are fundamental differences between Neijin (/ internal refined force) and other practices. This is a very important point. Some people do not make the distinction clear, and confuse force as Jin, going down the wrong path.

內勁兒和力是兩碼事(不同的事物)。

Neijin and Li (force) are two different things.

內勁兒即太極勁兒是神、 意、氣集中到一點上再把這個點運用到某個姿勢上去。 經過長期的鍛煉以後就會逐漸擴大增長起來 變成一種力。這種力是經過鍛煉取得的是後天之拙力。這種力形式大、動量滯、變換遲、動的去路直在技擊方面用起來因身形動作大運動量較強因此影響內氣的波動易於浮躁。 這近於長拳的練法和要求。

One theory to develop Jin (refined force) is to concentrate Shen, Yi and Qi in one point, and then use this point to drive the movements. After a long time of practice, the movements get bigger and carry a powerful force. Since this force is from diligent practice, it’s called the 後天 (After Heaven) "awkward" force. The force is powerful, strong and heavy, react and change slowly, done with straight and direct movements. When you perform martial movements, because the forms and movements are large, you exercise more vigorously. This effects your Qi to move roughly, making it easy to be restless. This is the training methods and requirements of the “Long Fist” (translator: i.e. external martial arts).

 

初練太極拳的人覺得太極拳的練法與上面的練法相似其實不然。如果按照太極拳的理論要求經過一段時間的鍛煉逐漸把理論與姿勢結合起來就會很明顯地感覺出來上面的練法和要求是與太極拳不同的。練習太極拳的要求是把本身的神氣化合歸一 融合在一起形成一種輕靈圓活之勁兒。這種勁兒是以氣、 意混之為主。 它的本質是氣對它的要求是空、虛 而不是集聚的。 這就是太極勁兒又叫做先天勁兒。

When a person first learns Tai Chi Chuan, they may think that Tai Chi Chuan is practiced the same way as described above, but that is not true. If they follow the requirements of the Tai Chi Chuan theory, after a period of training, combining their understanding of the theory and the form practices, they would begin to understand that the above written methods are not the same as those of the Tai Chi Chuan. Tai Chi Chuan requires that harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi into one, acting together, and become a Jin (refined force) that is light, agile, round and lively. This type of Jin comes from the mixing of Qi and Yi. Its nature is Qi, and requires Empty, “Transparent,” and “dispersed”, and not gathered. This is Tai Chi Jin, also known as 先天(“Pre Heaven”) Jin.

這種勁兒與姿勢的關係是利用身形手勢給這種勁兒開出去路指出方向 使它能自然暢通輸出無阻。這種用法只是在應敵時一現用之切勿在練拳時隨意輸散以免致傷身體影響養生。在運用時不要把它直接貫穿到某個姿勢上去而產生勁端。否則在應敵時遇到強力就會使內氣返回本身致傷身體。

Relating this type of Jin to your movement: when you move, you let the Jin to go out, directing its path, allowing it to flow out unimpeded. You should only project the Jin out this way when you are going against an enemy, and not randomly during practice, to avoid affecting your health and injuring your body. When practicing, do not hold the Jin in your body, otherwise the Jin is stopped and trapped. If holding the jin in your body and if you encounter an enemy with strong force, their force will bounce your Qi back to your body and cause injuries.

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照

Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi

Chuan

Translated by Richard Man, richard@imagecraft.com

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/192143596/WangYongquanWritingsOnYangStyleTaijiquanTranslated-20130812

 

Edited by windwalker
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edited: didnt think the clips would help in the discussion.

 

regarding kong jin,  Its been a study of mine for awhile both here in the US and in China.

Edited by morninglight
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2) Why does anyone do tai chi in the first place? It seems to me like it will get their practitioners killed. I don't mean to sound snide or obnoxious but does tai chi actually WORK? 

 

I hope my own taiji experience can shed some light as to whether

I  get killed.

 

Extract from a thread in this forum

http://thetaobums.co...n-styles/page-4

 

My take on taijichan as martial art and another attempt to explain fajing

Taijichuan martial arts

 

I know folks might just want to do taijichan as an exercise. Nothing wrong at all with that. BUT they must do it with a Master who know taijichuan as a martial art. I make a further distinction. That Master must truly know taijichan as a martial art and not his interpretation of martial aspects of taijichuan.

 

Taijichuan is not just waving and moving slowly of legs and arms. That is nothing but a parody of something truly profound.

Almost like looking at the Ecce Homo restoration by Cecilia Gimenez and thinking that was what Ecce Homo by Elias Garcia Martinez all about.

 

Taoistic Idiot

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2) Why does anyone do tai chi in the first place? It seems to me like it will get their practitioners killed. I don't mean to sound snide or obnoxious but does tai chi actually WORK? 

 

I'm obviously confused at this point in my life and could use some help in gathering my thoughts. 

 

After having practised and analysed several martial arts, my conclusion is that Taiji is actually among the very best for self-defence. Why? Because it teaches things like natural movement, reflex action, avoidance by stepping on a 45° angle, simultaneous defence and attack, neutralizing opponent's guard, striking vital points etc. Some of these things are taught in hard styles as well, of course - on the very advanced levels. Some Japanese Karate masters say that their art becomes like Taiji after many, many years of practice. But why wait so long?

 

 

But if you prefer to believe that this type of training would prepare you better for a real altercation...

 

 

Good luck!!!

 

 

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