realizing we don't understand what we think we do

[roger]

First let me say that I'm not projecting this onto any of you, it's just something that has been meaningful to me, personally, and has helped me open my mind by realizing what I feel that I honestly DO understand and DO NOT. I've come to a greater clarity about that.

 

I'm reading a book by Adyashanti, and I really get the feeling he has great wisdom, because reading this book has been one new insight after the other for me.

 

Probably the most significant idea I've gained from it is that I don't really understand what I thought I did. What I thought I knew, wasn't really true clarity or understanding.

 

For example, I've always had this idea that I don't have to TRY, and to just enjoy my life.

 

It occurred to me after reading this book that I don't really and truly understand that teaching, even though I would probably intellectually assent to it, mainly because I've read it in "channeled" material, which has been the source of most of my beliefs.

 

But when I honestly inquire, the truth is that I neither PRACTICE nor understand the teaching.

 

One reason it can be so helpful to see this is because it OPENS THE DOOR to truly understanding a teaching. In other words, it's only when we see that we DO NOT understand a teaching, that we can inquire so as to come to understand it.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Stay away from Adyashanti.

He will confuse you, abuse you and has no idea or special insight into teaching.

He is the kind of person who said that after a while all practices don't work yet he spent nine years staring at a wall ala Zen.

He put a dope smoking friend of his in a mental hospital when he gave him "shaktipat".

His realizations are minuscule yet he has used them to push himself up from his early childhood "wanna be" to a position of dominance.

Do yourself a favor and find an authentic teacher, one who won't confuse you or contradict him/herself.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Nikolai1]

All spiritual teachers have the same problem: if you're there listening, then that alone means that you won't understand. A teaching is a misleading falsehood the moment it leaves the teacher's lips.

 

Miraculously, one day, the student suddenly gets this. But they wouldn't have got it if they hadn't first listened hard, practiced hard, and despaired hard.

[Jetsun]

Adyashanti is probably one of most lucid and clear teachers you will find. The real test of a teacher is how many of their students they can bring to realisation and in that regard Adyashanti has one of the best records going.

 

Really all he does is point out the obvious and ask basic questions, so I don't know why some get offended by him. He is one who has put the raft down which is why some who are deeply attached to Buddhist trappings don't like him but he still pays respect to his lineage.

 

That stuff about shaktipat is just an obscure rumour. There is no evidence he ever gave shakipat , that sort of forced introduction is against one of the core principles of his teaching so I would be incredibly surprised if its true. He teaches from a Zen tradition which has nothing to do with shaktipat or anything like that.

[Nikolai1]

+1 Jetsun. I only read him quite recently but I just knew he was a good 'un.

[Marblehead]

Just one generalized statement from me:

 

If you have to rely on someone else to tell you what you are feeling or experiencing then you truely do not understand and likely never will.

[roger]

MH,

 

You said, "If you have to rely on someone else to tell you what you are feeling or experiencing then you truly do not understand and likely never will."

 

I'm not at all finding fault with you, or judging you, so I hope you don't take offense to this. It's possible that your words are an example of the insight I shared. Of course, I'm not you and only you can know that.

 

But I wonder if you honestly believe, or, as Adyashanti said, truly understand the words you said.

 

I don't see myself as relying on Adyashanti, it was more just a simple insight I gained from reading his book.

 

Also, the reason I read the book was to gain insight and wisdom. I feel that I DO understand some things, and many things I do not.

 

Finally, "....and likely never will." That might be more sentiment than something you actually believe.

 

Again, the only reason I'm saying this is to offer you my blessing, if it's taken otherwise, then I sincerely apologize.

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

Hi Roger,

 

You have to work really hard to offend me.  You missed by miles and miles.

 

However, to your comments:  Okay, my ending phrase "... and likely never will." is not valid.  I have placed limits on others and I have no authority to do so.

 

Although I will still hold to the base sentence.  What I am saying is that we each are capable of understanding our feelings and our (reactions) to our experiences.  If we don't understand them then I suggest that we don't understand our self, our body or our mind.

 

Now sure, the ancients have attached labels to these feelings and reactions.  Different cultures use different terms and different words.  But they are individual and personal feelings and reactions.  We all have these; they are nothing unique or special except to the individual.

 

My statement was not directed at Adyashanti as I have never read the person.  The statement was a generalization.  And likely it has its roots in my feelings about religious teachings.

 

But yes, sometimes I speak spontaneously and have no idea why I said what I said.  I'm even worse in real life.

[silent thunder]

I've found great value in much of what Adya shares.  I've read two of his books and perused a few of his youtube shares as well.  In the end, wherever you are, whatever you read, or hear, or experience, it will be filtered through your level of understanding and awareness.

 

Read a book with a ping pong ball sized awareness and you will have a ping pong ball sized experience and understanding of it.  Reread that same book later, with a basketball sized awareness and the experience and understanding will reflect this and it can be like reading that same material for the first time...

 

It's amazing to me to reopen a book I've read a dozen times and have a passage suddenly magnify and gel in full blown understanding, balls to bones, where before, it was just an intellectual exercise. 

 

Regular testing and inquiry of even my most basic assumptions is becoming my norm these days.

 

Good stuff.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Adyashanti is probably one of most lucid and clear teachers you will find. The real test of a teacher is how many of their students they can bring to realisation and in that regard Adyashanti has one of the best records going.

 

Really all he does is point out the obvious and ask basic questions, so I don't know why some get offended by him. He is one who has put the raft down which is why some who are deeply attached to Buddhist trappings don't like him but he still pays respect to his lineage.

 

That stuff about shaktipat is just an obscure rumour. There is no evidence he ever gave shakipat , that sort of forced introduction is against one of the core principles of his teaching so I would be incredibly surprised if its true. He teaches from a Zen tradition which has nothing to do with shaktipat or anything like that.

http://thedaobums.com/topic/34535-adyashanti/?p=541602

 

Quote

 think you have completely misunderstood what I am saying Kami. Far from criticizing Adyashati, I have actually been praising him over and over again. I have praised not only him as a teacher and his teachings, but also the innovative way he has developed zen practice to include an understanding of the energetic aspects of awakening.

 

What I have been discussing with Chas are

minor aspects of the path

and possible refinements to spiritual practice and teaching that could be made. It is not a question of one way verses another way or spiritual fundamentalism. As I mentioned before, Adya and I are both trained in the Buddhist tradition and our practices have been almost identical over the years.

 

There was a time when Adya used to give shaktipat. He put a few people in hospital and so he stopped giving shaktipat. Why? Out of love and compassion

.

 

So you see, love and compassion, arising from unity, can lead people to refine their technique and approach to spiritual teaching. Adya has done that and I think every good teacher does that.

 

Could Adya have known that they would not have ended up in hospital anyway? Obviously not. Could he have known that it was not the absolutely perfect place for them to be at that time? Obviously not. But he stopped giving shaktipat. So love can be a driving force for change.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Interview extract from here.

 

TGI: So your practice uncovers delusions about the self?

 

Adyashanti: Of course. Because if we really look at it and if we really inquire meditatively, we start to see that everything we think has self-nature actually doesn’t. Looking at our self-image, what we think about ourselves, how we feel about ourselves, we come to see it’s just thoughts—thoughts that refer to a self that we can’t actually find. Or feelings or memories that refer to a self that we can’t find. So the practice is a kind of peeling away or pulling back the various layers of self-identity.

 

TGI: Is this connected with the Buddhist teaching of anatta or non-self?

 

Adyashanti: Yes, ultimately that’s what will be uncovered. What’s uncovered isn’t a better self, or a spiritual self or enlightened self. But what anybody will find if taken far enough–and that’s a big if–is very similar to what Buddha and many others found. Everything we think has self-nature, actually doesn’t. Buddha called it anatta or no-self where nothing has self-nature. That means, you and I and all of us are not really this thing called a self, or me. This is strange because it’s almost impossible for the Western mind or the human mind to think of itself in any terms other than self. The mind doesn’t even know where to begin how to do this. But, with deep insight this orientation toward self collapses. We see that—wow—none of this has self-nature in it!

[...]

TGI: Your teaching seems light on method and technique.

 

Adyashanti: The idea is to have as little technique as possible. The technique could be summed up as “accept everything exactly as it is.” That’s not really much of a technique at all—it’s the technique of letting go of technique. One element that I find really important is the inquiry, the questioning, a questioning attitude similar to what we had as children. How far away is the star? — something innocent like that. I think that such questioning adds a dynamic energy. When combined with meditation it’s conducive to a flash of awakening. So there’s a little technique.

I haven't read, watched or attended Adyashanti, so I won't comment on how awakened he is our isn't. But based on ^^^ it seems like his method is fairly standard sudden-path zazen + inquiry.

 

So long as he isn't making the drop the raft prematurely mistake, which seems not to be the case from the OP saying...

 

I've always had this idea that I don't have to TRY [...] It occurred to me after reading this book that I don't really and truly understand that teaching, even though I would probably intellectually assent to it [...] when I honestly inquire, the truth is that I neither PRACTICE nor understand the teaching.

...I see no real issue.

[Jetsun]

http://thedaobums.com/topic/34535-adyashanti/?p=541602

 

So there is one person on an internet forum who once said that Adyashanti once gave shaktipat. Not exactly the strongest evidence to go by, especially as one of the main principles of his teaching is no direct interference. Plus what does it even mean that he put someone in hospital, it could be that the kundalini was temporarily hitting blockages and causing pain, the person could be perfectly ok the next day. Who knows. Obviously the person in question didn't hold it against him and the people who were affected aren't publicly complaining.

 

 

 

So long as he isn't making the drop the raft prematurely mistake, which seems not to be the case from the OP saying...

 

 

 

 

All I meant by saying that he is one who has dropped the raft is that he studied Buddhism for a long time and got a lot out of it but it came to a point that he realised that there were aspects of restrictive cultural conditioning contained within his lineage, so in order to be completely free he had to transcend it. Buddhism was a teaching tool which brought him so far and in the end he had to move beyond it, so put the raft down , which is why he doesn't say now that he is a Buddhist teacher even though that is his background, and those who are deeply attached to the trappings of Buddhism often criticise him for that. He still advises people do do practices, to meditate, do enquiry and go to retreats if they want to awaken, in certain respects he is completely the opposite of the people who say you can do nothing to awaken. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by Jetsun

[Spotless]

A realized teacher is beyond value - he/she is water in the driest of places.

 

Words are assumed meanings which do not have the same meaning from one person to another.

 

The typical mind has almost no ability to hold on topic.

 

The driver - our driver, is a lunatic and somehow those forces now distant must somehow group and take the reins.

 

Everyone has teachers all the time - their is no such thing as not having to rely on someone else to tell us what we are feeling or experiencing because every "someone else" is us. We may be feeling great identification and anger but to a portion of us however small or large, the area around us that is not identified sits quietly and teaches us there is another way.

 

The page that comes to us was put there by us.

 

The teacher that comes to us was put there by us.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Spotless

[Seeker of Wisdom]

All I meant by saying that he is one who has dropped the raft...

 

No worries man, I knew that's what you meant.

[steve]

First let me say that I'm not projecting this onto any of you, it's just something that has been meaningful to me, personally, and has helped me open my mind by realizing what I feel that I honestly DO understand and DO NOT. I've come to a greater clarity about that.

 

I'm reading a book by Adyashanti, and I really get the feeling he has great wisdom, because reading this book has been one new insight after the other for me.

 

Probably the most significant idea I've gained from it is that I don't really understand what I thought I did. What I thought I knew, wasn't really true clarity or understanding.

 

For example, I've always had this idea that I don't have to TRY, and to just enjoy my life.

 

It occurred to me after reading this book that I don't really and truly understand that teaching, even though I would probably intellectually assent to it, mainly because I've read it in "channeled" material, which has been the source of most of my beliefs.

 

But when I honestly inquire, the truth is that I neither PRACTICE nor understand the teaching.

 

One reason it can be so helpful to see this is because it OPENS THE DOOR to truly understanding a teaching. In other words, it's only when we see that we DO NOT understand a teaching, that we can inquire so as to come to understand it.

 

 

It's nice to see that you found a teacher that speaks clearly to you, that is truly a blessing.

 

Your post brings up a very important point -

We must constantly work to refine our view and measure success by how we are manifesting that in our lives. 

 

 

At this point in my life, it is more important to maintain a sense of openness than it is to pursue a sense of understanding. 

When we think we understand, we may close ourselves off to possibilities.

At some point what was once understanding may become an obstacle.

If we are able to remain open, we have more opportunity for growth and expansion.

[noonespecial]

No one knows anything is the conclusion I have more or less reached after 35 years of sojourning here

[Marblehead]

No one knows anything is the conclusion I have more or less reached after 35 years of sojourning here

You've been on this forum for 35 years?  WoW!

 

But yes, it is difficult to say anything absolutely.  Too many variables.  And we have no idea what tomorrow will bring.

 

But we still should do the best we can at what we feel is important in our life.  This requires thinking that we know something.

[Songtsan]

Everyone has varying levels of realizations....obviously if someone has way more realizations than you then they can easily confuse you. When someone has just a little bit more realization than you, they can help you up just a bit...let's look at at analogy:

 

If a number of people are climbing a cliff, the person who is just up above you on the line is the closest to you and can probably help you out the most by either pointing out routes, giving you a little lift, etc. Now someone who is way the hell up the cliff probably can't help you as much, because you can't hear them that well, and you can't even see them. They may have even forgotten some of the landmarks and toeholds that they themselves used on their journey up the cliff...that is why people who are too far out there or up there or whatever can be really confusing, whereas people who are just a few steps ahead of you have a clearer picture of what you are going through...

 

also, information flows downwards, kind of like when you have a bunch of wine glasses stacked on top of each other in a pyramid fashion....so knowledge and realization flow downwards like that.

 

The person who was once your guru may eventually need to be replaced.

 

There is wisdom in the lowliest of ruffians.

 

translation localization effects apply...

 

There is no perfect teacher out there, because we all have different hearts, eyes, ears and minds....Adyashanti may be good for some at some point, and then at a certain he may be bad...its very yin and yang...

 

Another analogy I love is this: If you are in a cabin, the fire in the fireplace is yang to the air in the room, but the air in the room is yang to the air outside. The air outside is yang to the air higher up the mountain.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Songtsan

[Tibetan_Ice]

So there is one person on an internet forum who once said that Adyashanti once gave shaktipat. Not exactly the strongest evidence to go by, especially as one of the main principles of his teaching is no direct interference. Plus what does it even mean that he put someone in hospital, it could be that the kundalini was temporarily hitting blockages and causing pain, the person could be perfectly ok the next day. Who knows. Obviously the person in question didn't hold it against him and the people who were affected aren't publicly complaining.

 

 

Yes, there was one person on a forum... So I researched.. According to two posters, one whom had "hung out" with Steve Grey for over a year many years ago, these stories are not just stories. And it was a mental hospital...

 

Adyashanti mixes top down with bottom up. He has no special powers and this is clearly reflected in the advice he gives to people. A good teacher can read minds, can assess a person in an instant and know where they are at. They have supra normal powers and don't hand out one-size-fits-all type of advice to groups of people in social settings. And they rarely shoot themselves in the foot.

 

If you read "the End of Your World" and if you've ever experienced the jhana of unlimited space, you will see that Adyashanti mistook unlimited space for enlightenment.

 

But hey, don't take my words for anything.. Why don't you ask him yourself? Let us know what he says..

Edited April 21, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[noonespecial]

You've been on this forum for 35 years?  WoW!

 

But yes, it is difficult to say anything absolutely.  Too many variables.  And we have no idea what tomorrow will bring.

 

But we still should do the best we can at what we feel is important in our life.  This requires thinking that we know something.

 

Thats wo-fi

[noonespecial]

But we still should do the best we can at what we feel is important in our life.  This requires thinking that we know something.

 

It sounds cliche, but the golden rule is it. Treat others how you want to be treated. That's really what I know...

 

On the other hand, waxing poetic about cosmology and metaphysics is icing on the cake, it's entertainment to me...it's turtles all the way down as far as I know.

[Marblehead]

Treat others how you want to be treated.

And even this is questionable.  You keep treating someone nice and they keep fucking with you and taking advantage of and misusing your kindness.  Eventually someone might need a bitch slap.

[noonespecial]

And even this is questionable.  You keep treating someone nice and they keep fucking with you and taking advantage of and misusing your kindness.  Eventually someone might need a bitch slap.

 

hmmmm, I sure know that I dont like being treated special or like a god or having my ass kisseed....just some common decency and respect as a fellow human is all I ask for. its like i tell my kids, 'dont be an asshole' - so soemwhere between 'dont kiss ass' and 'dont be an asshole' lol

 

edit - The more I think about you reply, the more I realize what a really good point it is, for what i thought i knew, is really something else, ie. someone who expects to be fawned over and applies the golden in rule in daily life and does not receive the same treatement from others will either be a martyr or miserable. So it really involves there an unquantifiable experential knowing that is more akin to stoic equilibrium than just 'do unto others'

 

Excellent.

Edited April 22, 2015 by noonespecial

[Marblehead]

Nice post.  I am unable to speak at the moment.