Has anyone had any experience with Michael Winn?

[Oneironaut]

I been looking through the Healing Tao USA website which is owned by Michael Winn and there are many things on there which catch my interest. I'm thinking of purchasing his fundamentals 1-4 but before diving in I want to be certain that this person is the real deal and not some typical new age turkey who's ready to run off with my hard earned cash. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with Michael Winn, his products and retreats? Do the end results of following his Taoist methods work as advertised? Thanks.

[Perceiver]

Yep, i have. Have trained in his system for two years and am getting great results. Am nearly done with the fusion practices. Have gained an incredible insight into my ego, feel more proactive, understand emotions better and lots of other cool stuff.

 

His dvds can be a little lengthy and disorganized to me, but i back them up with Skype sessions with some of his instructors.

[Daeluin]

Such a public system is bound to have many people with different experiences. Many people I encounter seem to have strong fixed opinions on the system and teacher asked about here, and they often don't allow that systems and people change and evolve, and that different things work for different people. Often these opinions are based on materials published decades ago, without understanding how things have evolved since then.

 

I haven't trained in this system, but I have had exposure to it and people who train with it, and I believe it can be really wonderful for those whose inner heart leads them to it.

 

Follow where your inner heart leads you.

 

Ultimately the more humility and sincerity you bring to your practice, the more you will progress, and the more your flow will draw you to the teachers you need over time.

[Trunk]

... but before diving in I want to be certain that this person is the real deal and not some typical new age turkey who's ready to run off with my hard earned cash. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with Michael Winn, his products and retreats? Do the end results of following his Taoist methods work as advertised?

I would advise caution (avoidance) with any variation/teacher of the Healing Tao system.

 

The links below have some info.  If you want to dig a bit more, somewhere in those links are links back to posts by Sean Denty here at TDBs, years ago.

1. Healing Tao cautions. (TTBs thread accessible to members only)

2. Essential reading external link: (available to anyone on the www) Essays/posts by 5 different Healing Tao instructors cautioning about the "Healing Love" and "Iron Shirt 1: Packing Breathing" practices within that system.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Trunk

[henro]

I've trained with Michael since my first trip to China with him in 2006. I've since taken a couple Primordial Qigong workshops, Fundamentals 1-4, Fusion of 5 Elements 1-3, a second trip to China, and he was the officiant at my wedding…. So I'm pretty biased.  

 

The practices he teaches in the seminars I've taken are present in many of the other systems I've had experience with. 6 healing sounds, microcosmic orbit, 5 Animals Frolic, etc. are common practices, and are the fundamental practices of Winn and Chia's system. Michael is adamant about solidifying this foundation before moving on to anything else, and that the advanced practices should be practiced under the guidance of a teacher. I have often seen complaints on these and other forums from people who jumped right into some pretty advanced stuff too quickly, and without guidance. 

 

Now whether these practices, especially the advanced ones, should ever have been introduced to the public at large is a different discussion. And perhaps the deviations we've seen (as in the posts above) would have happened to those practitioners in another system as well.  But my experience, and the experiences of the 100 or so people I have seen practice with Michael, have all been 100% positive. He presents the material honestly, and practically, and is always available for questions, and conversations about the work.

 

If you go to Trunk's external link above, specifically the posts regarding Iron Shirt, they state this is an advanced practice, rarely taught anymore, and that the method itself is valid. They also state very clearly that the advanced practices should only be undertaken under the guidance of an advanced teacher. The other link describes qigong deviations that can occur with any practice, and again it says as much in the link. The other link regarding sexual practices offers the same advice, again the system is valid but should only be attempted with proper instruction and a solid foundation. I'm not sure throwing the entire system out based on these links is warranted. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by henro

[flowing hands]

I been looking through the Healing Tao USA website which is owned by Michael Winn and there are many things on there which catch my interest. I'm thinking of purchasing his fundamentals 1-4 but before diving in I want to be certain that this person is the real deal and not some typical new age turkey who's ready to run off with my hard earned cash. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with Michael Winn, his products and retreats? Do the end results of following his Taoist methods work as advertised? Thanks.

 

I have not the slightest idea about this man, but I would caution anyone who wants to learn anything other than very basic exercises, by DVD or correspondence course. I was once going to make a DVD myself of one of Hau Tuo Xian Shi's Qigong exercises, but I still have great doubt because I won't be there to observe the student practicing and making sure they are not hurting themselves by doing it wrong. Best of all get some lessons personally with a teacher. Mantak Chia and MO is really only a very small part of Daoist practices, but appeals to the west because it involves sexuality. They have made their fortune and fame from this. Personally, I would avoid such teachers who are getting you into their system through sexuality, as I have stated it really is a very small part of real Daosit practices and are bordering on the Dao of the left.

[Daeluin]

In some ways these forums are a lineage that began with Michael.

 

[Trunk]

from http://alchemicaltaoism.com/HLDangerDenty.html

Sean Denty had significant back ground and criticisms.

I was a Healing Tao instructor for a time and worked very closely with many senior instructors.

During my time as an instructor, I spent three years working for Michael Winn..  We lived together during the summers at his school in New York.  ... You don’t get this close to an organization without becoming very familiar with the history and reality of it.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Trunk

[Jox]

I have MW dvd_s up to Lesser Kan & Li ... Cool stuff ..., but you have to go trough materials gradually, step by step ... begining with Fundamentals 1 - 4 ...     I also took training with two MW students and I had great experience ...    

Edited April 5, 2015 by Jox

[henro]

Mantak Chia and MO is really only a very small part of Daoist practices, but appeals to the west because it involves sexuality. They have made their fortune and fame from this. Personally, I would avoid such teachers who are getting you into their system through sexuality, as I have stated it really is a very small part of real Daosit practices and are bordering on the Dao of the left.

 

I would agree… Michael Winn does not suggest getting into his system through sexuality. and in the 9 years I've been practicing with him we have barely spoken of those practices. He knows that people often get into this because of the allure of the sexual practices, that is why he is adamant about the foundation courses. 

[thelerner]

I took a beginners class with him and have the Fundamentals I and II on video cassette; yeah it was a while ago.  I like him.  I think his teaching is authentic and/but Westernized.  Like most qi gong teachers his advertising tends to over promise, not because its not true, its just most people don't go all the way, a few do.   I don't, but its still worthwhile.

 

Go to youtube and watch some of his clips.  If they peak frickin pique your interest get the videos. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by thelerner

[soaring crane]

 If they peak your interest get the videos. 

 

pique

 

(it's my job)

[soaring crane]

from http://alchemicaltaoism.com/HLDangerDenty.html,

Sean Denty had significant back ground and criticisms.

 

404 not found

[thelerner]

pique

 

(it's my job)

I was thinking of that <I actually typed in picqued, but that didn't look right).  Firefox spell check has gone awol for me on the Dao Bums.  It's slowed me down and made me look less goodly.

[Trunk]

404 not found

 

Fixed

thx

[Geof Nanto]

from http://alchemicaltaoism.com/HLDangerDenty.html

Sean Denty had significant back ground and criticisms.

 

I checked out that link and agree with Denty's observations about Healing Tao. But his comments about Sherfu reveal the methods of a faith healer. Believe what you will. 

 

"What came out of me was about a half pint of what looked like roof tar.  It was literally black and thick like a paste.  Sherfu said that if I hadn't come to him, I would have been quite possibly hit with a stroke within the year."

 

I know from personal experience that authentic Daoist based praxis is excellent for improving health and can even rid a person of many illnesses (Illness in the sense of qi imbalances). However, many of these 'guru' type Dao teachers go much too far with their claims. Some come to believe they have god-like powers and can cure anything. This is simply untrue.

 

Sure, we all can learn - indeed, need to learn - from gifted teachers but remember at the end of the day the path lies within. But perhaps a person needs to experience devastating disillusionment before fully realising what this means.

[Gerard]

No one can 'cure' you (another myth originated by New Age Spirituality), you heal yourself by your own efforts...under the guidance of a truly accomplished practitioner (the best never advertise themselves as they don't need to).

 

Edit: the mind is the root of all imbalances.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Gerard

[liminal_luke]

I´ve bought and practiced from quite a few of Winn´s dvd´s and tapes, as well as gone to retreats.  Nothing but good has come has come from the experience.  In his retreats he gives a very intellectual framework for understanding the material which might not be right for everyone, but worked for me.  I consider his primordial chi gung an underappreciated gem, and simple beginning practices like healing sounds and inner smile can take you far.  Have you downloaded the free (I think you have to sign up for a newsletter) ebook on the inner smile?  Good stuff.

 

Liminal

[vonkrankenhaus]

I have only recent begun to examine fully the system Michael Winn and Mantak Chia have been teaching.

I do this because someone mentioned this to me in the early 80s, I forgot about it, and more recent now is someone I know is writing a Mantak Chia book with him.

Most of what they are teaching looks like common things (small circulation, iron shirt, tao yin, tui na, etc), old, but in some areas they have added detail, and overall looking like maybe adding a lot of "new age" terminology - because up to then this area of study is mostly martial arts people. New people they approach as students in 80s were not coming from Gongfu, but were "hippies" coming from doing Yoga, TM, and many things recently became popular then. This was good, and they did reach a lot of people compared to what Gongfu people had at that time.

But maybe because this was not learned following martial arts way, and maybe for other reasons, they personally lack some of these skills and physical basis that can be seen elsewhere (but not so easy as just order DVD from web site). Many of their posture and movements in video look not so good - actually, looking like beginner. And I notice they have no real Fa Jin like martial arts people would absolutely be working - or else we would see it advertise somewhere or show in video, or even someone tells what happened.
 

In the 60s & 70s many people were paying thousand$ to learn just these things from various sifus, without becoming "indoor" students, and some of this may be what Mantak Chia did. Bringing to america in the 70s, not many american people had heard of this stuff that were not close students in one of the Gongfu systems. They mostly just watching Bruce Lee do jackass.

 

Looks like good thing for their market, for people introducing - but they also have what are real advanced practices that even they don't seem to understand what to do with. Some parts are missing. People have fun with it, and little harm could result.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[liminal_luke]

Oh never mind.  I was momentarily snippy over what I perceived to be unwarranted ...well, whatever.  Chilling out now.

Edited April 6, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Henchman21]

I swear by the inner smile and 6 healing sounds. But I know better not to mess with circulating energy, especially sexual energy; as I have no master to correct deviations! One day when my tan tien starts exhibiting signs of overfilling, I will seek one.

[Oneironaut]

Simplicity is something Michael uses to sell his products but I'm personally finding the audios and DVD's to be disorganized, very long and maybe a little too much to throw at the newcomers. There is otherwise lots of good material to be had. The issue is that it's too long and there is too much of it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Oneironaut

[Perceiver]

His audio CDs are far from user-friendly, agree. His system is great though. Skype sessions with his instructors is the way to go..

Edited April 30, 2015 by Perceiver