Christmas family disagreements, and a realisation

[C T]

.

 

Your well-intentioned post once again raised for me that recurring flaw in the otherwise seemingly watertight system of Buddhist logic. You illustrated it perfectly. Because the clearest explanation is always given from a direct and immediate example, please forgive me for using extracts from your post to show what I mean. I assure you, my intention is not to question your motivation or your obvious sincerity. I use it simply as an illustration for what I find to be an interesting academic point.

 

In a nutshell, if a person makes and truly understands the statement {A} below ... then the truth of {A}, logically makes {B} ... absurd.

 

*

 

{A} In the context of the Yogacara school of Buddhism, all these major hindrances arise due to the "...reification of an 'imagined self.' "

 

{B} If we can rectify our own faults and expand on our limited views, then we can take the better option of seeing all beings equanimously.

 

*

 

In other words, if all our problems stem from believing our 'imagined self' to be real ... then how can this purely imaginary 'thing' choose to do, or not do, certain actions in order to realise that it doesn't really exist ?

 

Has this question never struck you as interesting the way it does me ?

 

.

Yes, interesting question indeed, one which is pondered upon quite often, but since you are already biased against Buddhist logic, as indicated in your opening line, i see no reason to even attempt an answer. But should you be willing to investigate the premise of my post in a slightly more open-minded manner, then i will be very happy to direct you to some source materials where you will be able to obtain a better understanding of Dependent Origination, and in the process may become more informed of Buddhist logic.

[ThisLife]

Yes, interesting question indeed, one which is pondered upon quite often, but since you are already biased against Buddhist logic, as indicated in your opening line, i see no reason to even attempt an answer. But should you be willing to investigate the premise of my post in a slightly more open-minded manner, then i will be very happy to direct you to some source materials where you will be able to obtain a better understanding of Dependent Origination, and in the process may become more informed of Buddhist logic.

 

Yes, first lines are indeed revealing. For instance your own. Your choice of phrasing in " since you are already biased against Buddhist logic" would, from my own side be rendered as "I was a practicing Buddhist for over twenty years, so I am quite familiar with their system of logic." And then the rather flippantly dismissive " I see no reason to even attempt an answer" ... speaks volumes about your immediate reaction towards any opinion seeming to question the authority earned through your years of studying and practicing Buddhism.

 

Of course you are right in assuming that directing me to Buddhist source materials would probably be fruitless. I too have studied this idea of the Five Skandas, dependent origination, etc. But the reason they didn't satisfy me is NOT because my lack of, (as you put it), " a slightly more open-minded manner." It is because everyone is different. For those drawn to spiritual questions, some find Christian-based answers satisfactory, some Buddhist ideas, some are attracted to Islamic doctrines, others to Taoism. It is NOT because one of these religions and its doctrine is correct and those who are attracted to others lack an open-mind. Surely this understanding is rather basic ?

 

To be honest, I simply raised the question initially, to see how you would respond. I am very familiar with the referring back to scriptural authority as the preferred method of replying to questions which were posed to people in the hierarchy of the Buddhist organisation I used to be part of. It was a considerable part of why I gradually drifted away from that path. My way of seeing things is that human beings' minds are constructed in such a way that we almost all feel 'incomplete'. That something is missing in our life. Some people are made such that they feel that it is God, Spiritual Truth, Oneness, or some such invisible but conscious and powerful deity, Universal Consciousness, etc., which is missing. Others will feel their missing element will be fulfilled when they find and marry a perfect member of the opposite sex, others believe satisfaction will come when they gain wealth, worldly power, fame and recognition, approval etc, etc.

 

All of us here on this forum have been attracted to this one branch of the seekers tree, in hopes of scratching our own particular itch. But there's people travelling along every branch of the tree. The ones I find the most helpful are the friendly ones who see our commonality and speak to me through that, rather than those who quote scriptural authority which supposedly proves that their branch is not only different, but somehow "better" than the limbs that others may be on. (Despite the fact that every branch has its own equally cherished 'sacred texts' which claim to authenticate its validity.)

 

I have no trouble understanding how your chosen path can bring you satisfaction. I was simply curious to see whether it has also brought you an awareness of the commonality and equality between all us people suffering from this sense of incompleteness that our minds have sadly, but inescapably, been lumbered with.

 

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Edited January 1, 2015 by ThisLife

[C T]

Yes, first lines are indeed revealing. For instance your own. Your choice of phrasing in " since you are already biased against Buddhist logic" would, from my own side be rendered as "I was a practicing Buddhist for over twenty years, so I am quite familiar with their system of logic." And then the rather flippantly dismissive " I see no reason to even attempt an answer" ... speaks volumes about your immediate reaction towards any opinion seeming to question the authority earned through your years of studying and practicing Buddhism.

 

Of course you are right in assuming that directing me to Buddhist source materials would probably be fruitless. I too have studied this idea of the Five Skandas, dependent origination, etc. But the reason they didn't satisfy me is NOT because my lack of, (as you put it), " a slightly more open-minded manner." It is because everyone is different. For those drawn to spiritual questions, some find Christian-based answers satisfactory, some Buddhist ideas, some are attracted to Islamic doctrines, others to Taoism. It is NOT because one of these religions and its doctrine is correct and those who are attracted to others lack an open-mind. Surely this understanding is rather basic ?

 

To be honest, I simply raised the question initially, to see how you would respond. I am very familiar with the referring back to scriptural authority as the preferred method of replying to questions posed to people in the hierarchy of the Buddhist organisation I used to be part of. It was a considerable part of why I gradually drifted away from that path. My way of seeing things is that human beings' minds are constructed in such a way that we almost all feel 'incomplete'. That something is missing in our life. Some people are made such that they feel that it is God, Spiritual Truth, Oneness, or some such invisible but conscious and powerful deity, Mind, etc., which is missing. Others will feel their missing element will be fulfilled when they find and marry a perfect member of the opposite sex, others believe satisfaction will come when they gain wealth, worldly power, fame and recognition, approval etc, etc.

 

All of us here on this forum have been attracted to this one branch of the seekers tree, in hopes of scratching our own particular itch. But there's people travelling along every branch of the tree. The ones I find the most helpful are the friendly ones who see our commonality and speak to me through that, rather than quoting the scriptural authority which proves that their branch is not only different, but somehow "better" than the one others are on. (Despite the fact that every branch has its own equally cherished 'sacred texts' which authenticate its validity.)

 

I have no trouble understanding how your chosen path can bring you satisfaction. I was simply curious to see whether it has also brought you an awareness of the commonality and equality between all us people suffering from this sense of incompleteness that our minds have sadly, but inescapably, been lumbered with.

 

.

Im sorry you did not find Buddhist thought and practice of enough substance to continue pursuing.

 

Its very clear where you are coming from, and i appreciate your opinion very much, believe it or not.

[Marblehead]

 

Its very clear where you are coming from, and i appreciate your opinion very much, believe it or not.

That's a feather in your hat ThisLife. He has never said that about me.

[ThisLife]

I'm sorry you did not find Buddhist thought and practice of enough substance to continue pursuing.

 

It's very clear where you are coming from, and i appreciate your opinion very much, believe it or not.

 

Thank you very much for your kind words, CT. I'm sure you realise that I too, value and enjoy the input of your well-balanced thoughts into this forum that we all share together.

 

But just to clarify myself a little better - it most certainly was NOT that I felt Buddhist thought and practice didn't have 'enough substance' for me to bother continuing. The depth of Buddhist thought extends light years beyond what I could even begin to comprehend.

 

Rather, the reason I fell away from Buddhism was because the organisation that I had placed my faith in gradually degenerated into a guru cult. Moreover, one that had no interest in its followers other than to milk their services as foot soldiers, free labour, and financial patrons in their quest to be the World's Biggest Buddhist Organisation. They somehow managed, without any desire, and in a direction completely opposite to their beliefs ... to transform themselves into a perfect example of 'the Eight Worldly Concerns' that they had always so sagely cautioned us to be vigilant of.

 

Unfortunately, the unsavoury taste of hypocrisy that that group left in my mouth ... kind of left its flavour on most things to do with the study and practice of Buddhism for me. But I nevertheless, still hold in very high regard the religion, its founder, and a great many of its adherents. All I can say is that my experiences with that one group, for me, destroyed the entire belief system as a personal path.

 

But to be a bit more fair to that group - spiritual materialism is a pitfall that very, very few religions or practitioners are ever able to avoid falling into.

 

.

Edited December 31, 2014 by ThisLife

[C T]

But to be a bit more fair to that group - spiritual materialism is a pitfall that very, very few religions or practitioners are ever able to avoid falling into.

 

.

Guess we just have to keep planting trees, until one day we get it right. Then, we happily plant even more trees!

[Rara]

I'm watching Fullmetal Alchemist lately and that belief system of equivalent exchange is bothering me a lot, because as far as I understand it is related to the belief that life is a zero sum game. In that way, alchemy might be closer to narrow-minded modern Western science than holistic spiritual observations.

 

That 'law' of equivalent exchange is also a moldable tool, because you can arbitrarily set the boundaries for such an exchange to more immediate or long-term. It can fit whatever you want it to fit.

Instead I suggest not to worry about reciprocity and instead multiplying the good in the world.

Haha, so you got the reference.

 

EDIT: Potential Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood spoiler below?

 

I feel different about the moral in the anime...at the very end, it turned out, all you need is love.

 

The fighting/equivalent exchange came down to, well, disruption of Tao, I guess.

 

In hindsight, today I feel very differently and see this "law" as secondary (and therefore unnecessary) to love. A bit like Sun Tzu's moral in Art of War: Avoid going to war, but if you have to, here's the guide...

Edited January 1, 2015 by Rara

[iain]

Hello Rara,

27...

Age of a nodal return often problematic; important time for self assessment, sometimes a time mistakes; often a time of change due to this. You are also experiencing a transit of Saturn over your natal Saturn, this often causes trouble in yang energy.

 

Take it easy one step at a time, the spiritual umbilical chord is never easy to cut; should you chose this route. This dynamic with your mother will show in your chart; You may have tamasic graha in the 4th bhāva or a tricky placement of the 4th marker. Remember that this is one of your self's biggest defining factors, and it may be a challenge for a reason; remove the self from the perspective to understand this; Not from your self emotionally, but from the dynamic between you both, try to observe your situation from another perspective that of an impartial observer. That the energy be better directed or diffused, but not removed or quashed; Reflective of your relation with yin, this is often the cause of troubles in Men. It is the Mother Earth that attracts the lightening bolt; same dynamic in family life, the force of the lightening is manifest in yang, but it is yin that draws it out ...

 

It is infinitely better that you construct a spiritual lightning conductor for your energy, than try to hide from the lightning under a tree, which it sounds to me as though you might be doing to a certain degree; Causing pent up anger to manifest as disturbance in your speech.

As you have correctly correlated to your pranayama or spiritual breath.

Edited January 1, 2015 by iain

[gendao]

Lol, so much utter mass confusion in here...obviously many others are all still stuck in the same sinking boat too! And hence mostly all advocating further coping or defense mechanisms...but failing to address the actual root cause (that will only continue to worsen, if not properly fixed).

 

For example, you ran away from home to escape...yet now the issue has grown even more emotionally painful!

 

Anyhow, we've all been there, so maybe another alternate viewpoint might be helpful to you?

Hi Brian. Absolutely, and I think that teen is still inside me because the nature of me moving away was yo get the hell away. With my mother's guidance, I would have been living locally, working in the civil service, and living someone else's life.

Now that I've gone, and have found my way and career (going from mass debt to having my best year of business financially, ever) she is still critical. This is where the argumemts always begin. I've done this, this and this for personal development and her opinion is "well, it hasn't worked out great, has it?"

Perhaps the key to losing the teen within is to stop caring about her opinion. It won't stop her asking though.

It's simple. You believe that you can and must earn unconditional love (which your mother archetypically represents). Therefore, after "earning" it by becoming "more spiritual" and financially successful like the prodigal son...you are enraged (deeply hurt) to find out that this still isn't enough! Damn Mother, what more can I do??? I need your love...wahhhhhhh!!!!

Whereas your Mother is like a Ch'an monk slapping you upside the head with a stick saying...no, that is NOT "Enlightenment" you fool! Unconditional love doesn't have to be earned (or even technically received) AT ALL to begin with silly boy, because you already ARE an expression of it. It is our MOST INNATE DIVINE NATURE. That's like trying to pay a clerk for a watch that you already own and are wearing right on your wrist! You just have to fully realize, stop subconsciously resisting, accept and allow it (gnow & be thy "true self")...

There's a big difference between "doing" things (allowing the Daoist flow) simply out of love as a natural "wu wei" expression of it vs doing things to get love (an unnecessary & painfully futile pursuit).

Edited January 1, 2015 by gendao

[skydog]

In thinking of this thread

 

I was thinking about this behaviour of being fear based

 

and thinking of people as needing to protect my energy from and realise they may be attempting to guilt trip me etc

 

This fear makes me alert and not too reckless

 

and calm

 

But maybe people can sense my fear and feel insulted by them

 

Anywasy I decided to think this was somewhat true

 

So I thought of trying to view my mother as precious and special and unique (bla bla bla)

 

and it worked for one day

 

The next day I let my guard down and she screams and vomits her shit on everyone and tries to shame me and I react back

 

You know what annoys me

 

People who just dont understand how difficult it can be

[Owledge]

In thinking of this thread

 

I was thinking about this behaviour of being fear based

 

and thinking of people as needing to protect my energy from and realise they may be attempting to guilt trip me etc

 

This fear makes me alert and not too reckless

 

and calm

 

But maybe people can sense my fear and feel insulted by them

 

Anywasy I decided to think this was somewhat true

 

So I thought of trying to view my mother as precious and special and unique (bla bla bla)

 

and it worked for one day

 

The next day I let my guard down and she screams and vomits her shit on everyone and tries to shame me and I react back

 

You know what annoys me

 

People who just dont understand how difficult it can be

I do. I had arguments with my mother that looked like an attempted exorcism (which in a way they were), with her just unwilling to get rid of her poisonous arrogance and control issues. These days she has learned to hide it, to wear a mask, but I can still see the symptoms of it working underneath.

And plenty of people, especially those who have no habit of spiritual self-reflection and such, ("commoners" I tend to say not without a hint of bitterness) cannot change, because they don't want to, because they have no strong enough incentive. (My mother even admitted she's been kind of a stubborn and spoiled, arrogant child, but many decades later it's still with her and she doesn't seem to realize it.) They have made everything more difficult for others because they allow themselves the convenience of not making an effort, while telling themselves a bullshit story that makes them feel good and righteous about themselves. I tried long enough, but eventually I arrived at a "screw them" attitude. They're ugly and I don't have the energy or motivation for saint-like self-sacrifice for convenient fools. Convenience causes unspeakable misery in the world.

I've done way more than my civic duty and been punished for it. Now I come first.

 

How I hate lawful neutrals.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Owledge

[Rara]

remove the self from the perspective to understand this; Not from your self emotionally, but from the dynamic between you both, try to observe your situation from another perspective that of an impartial observer.

Hi Iain. Are you talking about being objective?

[iain]

Hello Rara

Quite the opposite my dear fellow; one must be subjective in order to achieve this deep psychological/spiritual ability.

Hmmmm; I think I would probably side with your Mother in an argument ... Joking aside. I am serious about tamasic planets in your 4th BhAva, not saying that this is good or bad, just that there are things at work here that we have to include in our perspective if we want to see the full picture; The relativistic picture; else all supposition is rather futile.

I do hope that your Christ's mass was not spoiled by all of that.

[Rara]

 

It's simple. You believe that you can and must earn unconditional love (which your mother archetypically represents). Therefore, after "earning" it by becoming "more spiritual" and financially successful like the prodigal son...you are enraged (deeply hurt) to find out that this still isn't enough! Damn Mother, what more can I do??? I need your love...wahhhhhhh!!!!

Whereas your Mother is like a Ch'an monk slapping you upside the head with a stick saying...no, that is NOT "Enlightenment" you fool! Unconditional love doesn't have to be earned (or even technically received) AT ALL to begin with silly boy, because you already ARE an expression of it. It is our MOST INNATE DIVINE NATURE. That's like trying to pay a clerk for a watch that you already own and are wearing right on your wrist! You just have to fully realize, stop subconsciously resisting, accept and allow it (gnow & be thy "true self")...

There's a big difference between "doing" things (allowing the Daoist flow) simply out of love as a natural "wu wei" expression of it vs doing things to get love (an unnecessary & painfully futile pursuit).

Hi Gendao,

 

Thanks for your input but I already came to this realisation along with a few others here on this thread.

 

I wouldn't say that the coping strategies were a bad thing though. They work well in addition to the training mentioned above.

 

She's not the greatest monk though. When she asked for my advice on her panic attacks and nervousness about opetarions, I suggested mindfulness only to find many excuses not to bother.

 

Why ask for advice unless they are going take it? And then, why pick further holes in someone's cultivation?

[Rara]

Hello Rara

 

Quite the opposite my dear fellow; one must be subjective in order to achieve this deep psychological/spiritual ability.

 

Hmmmm; I think I would probably side with your Mother in an argument ... Joking aside. I am serious about tamasic planets in your 4th BhAva, not saying that this is good or bad, just that there are things at work here that we have to include in our perspective if we want to see the full picture; The relativistic picture; else all supposition is rather futile.

 

I do hope that your Christ's mass was not spoiled by all of that.

Haha, I think I would need a retreat with you to understand your teachings then.

 

As for Christmas, well, it could have been better, could have been worse! Next year I will approach the whole thing very differently.

[Rara]

I do. I had arguments with my mother that looked like an attempted exorcism (which in a way they were), with her just unwilling to get rid of her poisonous arrogance and control issues. These days she has learned to hide it, to wear a mask, but I can still see the symptoms of it working underneath.

And plenty of people, especially those who have no habit of spiritual self-reflection and such, ("commoners" I tend to say not without a hint of bitterness) cannot change, because they don't want to, because they have no strong enough incentive. (My mother even admitted she's been kind of a stubborn and spoiled, arrogant child, but many decades later it's still with her and she doesn't seem to realize it.) They have made everything more difficult for others because they allow themselves the convenience of not making an effort, while telling themselves a bullshit story that makes them feel good and righteous about themselves. I tried long enough, but eventually I arrived at a "screw them" attitude. They're ugly and I don't have the energy or motivation for saint-like self-sacrifice for convenient fools. Convenience causes unspeakable misery in the world.

I've done way more than my civic duty and been punished for it. Now I come first.

 

How I hate lawful neutrals.

This is an interesting post.

 

Like John C. Parkin's "Fuck it therapy" - some things you just can't change so why keep pushing?

[iain]

Oh, not my teachings, I am a student my self; though I am compiling a web site; or starting to just to explain the basics of the how and whys of the importance of relativity in understanding our day to day lives; very little done as yet but starting ...
We do not have to understand the totality of a system to reap some of the benefits from it either; this depends very much upon who we are, and what we want from it.

To understand the tricky passage at age 27: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club

Xmas as a holiday has become rather misguided in its self, in the cold entropy of slow social change. Most of those who would bring it to life, are drugged to remove any spirit left in them. The world that we live in today is a curious one at best; not to mind though, I am writing an iphone app for Christmas spirit; perhaps try that next year.

[Rara]

Xmas as a holiday has become rather misguided in its self, in the cold entropy of slow social change. Most of those who would bring it to life, are drugged to remove any spirit left in them. The world that we live in today is a curious one at best; not to mind though, I am writing an iphone app for Christmas spirit; perhaps try that next year.

Well I had the Christmas spirit. This is why I travelled 200+ miles and then all over the south east, exhausting myself, seeing 4 different family households in 3 days.

 

I'm still recovering. I was tired by Cnristmas eve having just finished an insane month of business and present shopping.

 

I meant well, but I guess life these days makes it hard to relax at Christmas.

[iain]

I think the rate at which society/economy expects us to live, is inversely proportional to the entropy of social degradation; the distances that you have traveled are testament to that. I don't mean that any one particular group are imposing their will, but in that which general consensus considers to be normal.

It is supposed to be about charity also, perhaps next year don't travel and give the fuel money to the homeless in your neighbourhood?

We seem somehow to think that it is an excuse for the fact that all year round we don't see our families, I am perhaps wrong in your case and sorry if that is so, as I am aware that I am generalising here. This has nothing to do with christmas at all, in reality; it is just that which it has become, as families tend to be more segregated due to work and technology these days. It is a phenomenon that has, I think, made internet companies such as amazon; it would be interesting to see just how much of their initial yearly sales were taken leading up to Christmas time, due to this effect.

Ah ****, I'm just philosophising; pay me no mind.

Edited January 3, 2015 by iain

[Marblehead]

Ah ****, I'm just philosophising; pay me no mind.

Well, at least you caused me laughter. That's good.

[iain]

I'm so glad that you have got something too, lets celebrate!

 

Edited January 3, 2015 by iain

[Rara]

I think the rate at which society/economy expects us to live, is inversely proportional to the entropy of social degradation; the distances that you have traveled are testament to that. I don't mean that any one particular group are imposing their will, but in that which general consensus considers to be normal.

 

It is supposed to be about charity also, perhaps next year don't travel and give the fuel money to the homeless in your neighbourhood?

 

We seem somehow to think that it is an excuse for the fact that all year round we don't see our families, I am perhaps wrong in your case and sorry if that is so, as I am aware that I am generalising here. This has nothing to do with christmas at all, in reality; it is just that which it has become, as families tend to be more segregated due to work and technology these days. It is a phenomenon that has, I think, made internet companies such as amazon; it would be interesting to see just how much of their initial yearly sales were taken leading up to Christmas time, due to this effect.

 

Ah ****, I'm just philosophising; pay me no mind.

No, you are mostly right here. One example:

 

My sister, who I do try and see/speak to regularly. A single mum that likes to guilt trip me in to getting down as close to Christmas day as possible so the nephew has some sort of Christmas. While I sympathise, it's not like I'm the dad and that it's really my duty.

[iain]

Families, and the disintegration there of, are an element of our lives, that we have little say in; it is our social structure that governs this, more so than anything that we say or do; don't get me wrong, we play also part also, though our immediate past generations do so to a much greater extent.

There are forces at work in this dynamic that are much more powerful than we might like to imagine, or even believe possible.

We need look no further than our fellow primates, to see significance of the biological changes possible; triggered by the epigenome through balance within the group, and to realise just how important this dynamic is. Following patterns that we can modify to a certain extent; most importantly by being aware that they are there.

There are patterns in these dynamics that are greater than our self.

Edited January 3, 2015 by iain

[gendao]

She's not the greatest monk though. When she asked for my advice on her panic attacks and nervousness about opetarions, I suggested mindfulness only to find many excuses not to bother.

 

Why ask for advice unless they are going take it? And then, why pick further holes in someone's cultivation?

Why would she take your advice to try mindfulness, if mindfulness hasn't helped you resolve your own conflicts with her? And why would you even suggest an approach that hasn't successfully worked for you yet?

 

Or, are you suggesting advice to "others" that you haven't taken yourself, yet?

Edited January 3, 2015 by gendao

[thewhitetiger]

Why would she take your advice to try mindfulness, if mindfulness hasn't helped you resolve your own conflicts with her? And why would you even suggest an approach that hasn't successfully worked for you yet?

 

Or, are you suggesting advice to "others" that you haven't taken yourself, yet?

You captured my Likeness so accurately!

(It is how I feel after my week long binge of Gluten and Cheese ...)