Origin and return

[Michael Sternbach]

But a man cannot live on bread alone. He must have peanut butter.

 

LOL. Would you be willing to expand on that?

 

I thought any American would understand Marblehead's objection.

[Marblehead]

LOL. Would you be willing to expand on that?

No.

[manitou]

No.

LOL-ing even harder. I shall meditate on your words tonight and hopefully I will see the metaphor. I'm a bit slow, as you well know...

[manitou]

 

This is approaching what I am talking about. In a sense, I am hinting to the Daoist alchemical metaphors of the natal and prenatal energy. It feels like a metaphor, because it is both an existential and an energetic issue. An energy must die.

But by dissolving the false yang and purging yin, you are supposedly on your way to "immorality".

By return, the body also is discarded, but voluntarily. The difference is beyond this, I think.

 

h

 

As luck would have it, I just sat down to read, I'm on page 980 of the Avatamsaka Sutra. There is a paragraph here that goes directly to what Hagar was pointing at, IMO:

 

"The nature of things is uncreate, unchanging,

Fundamentally pure, like space:

So also is the purity of nature of buddhas -

Their fundamental nature is not a nature, is beyond being and nonbeing."

[forestofemptiness]

I wonder if one needs really to "kill" or "eliminate" anything.

[dawei]

I wonder if one needs really to "kill" or "eliminate" anything.

 

Even once in a while the dirtiest person should take a shower

[dawei]

Marbles and Chi Dragon - the acquired personality (or post natal personality) is that which is acquired by conditioning of conditions after birth; they are reactive conditions, not the pure Dao within that we were born with. It is this that must be eliminated, the reactive part, which leaves us with the pure. It results in the living, every day realization, that there is no differentiation between the 10,000 things; that our bodies and the chair we're sitting on are all made out of the same matter, although with differently combined molecules. A pure joy is realized; it is as though an alchemical process has occurred within our minds, and we never see the world the same again.

 

Another recently said to me that the "local mind.body" can be infinite and the greatest trap we'll never see we set day after day... some paraphrasing

 

Yet, from birth, this is where everyone starts... trapped by our nurturing/culture/learning/seeking/ ....

 

Most try to self-transform via the internal methods; change the mind, thought, desires... deep breathing... and post the mantra of 'cultivate'...

 

My path has never understood this Way... this seems an never-ending attempt to get somewhere... to seek... to try to attain...

 

The internal methods exist and there is an arduous path ahead... but in the end, it is the local mind.body in control.

 

I find the external methods are natural and direct to the source.

 

Maybe this is another topic but your posts have made me think about this...

[manitou]

Over Forest of Emptiness' avatar, he (or she) defines himself as 'Direct Path Zen Buddhist.' I've always understood Direct Path to be the inner path, where one unfurls the contortions to find the straight shot. (Perhaps I've been misunderstanding Direct Path). My internal method was out of necessity because of a need to 'recover' from my previous derelict existence. But I have come to appreciate that not everybody needs to go there, especially to the extent that I did.

 

But wouldn't the eightfold path include the inner component as well? I know that within occult Yogi philosophy it does. Even don Juan Mateus had Castaneda do a life recapitulation that he worked on for years.

 

On the other hand, maybe constant exposure to the Light (through transmission by a Master or texts) will produce the very same results. Who's to say? Who's to judge? How is the comparison made?

 

I think the only possible way to make a comparison would be to look at the temperament, the patience, the humor, and the Love of the subject in question. I believe the proof is in the pudding. Another way to view this would be to look at the manifestations around us. Are they what we want? Or are they chronically unsatisfactory, with the same negative scenarios replaying themselves over and over?

 

Such a good question. But WE ARE the manifester - and if things aren't according to our preference, there is some inner work that still needs to be done. We can't manifest in its purest state, we can't manifest Joy and love for others, if we're manifesting through a lens of anger, or jealousy, selfishness, or excessive ego.

Edited December 16, 2014 by manitou

[forestofemptiness]

The internal methods exist and there is an arduous path ahead... but in the end, it is the local mind.body in control.

 

I find the external methods are natural and direct to the source.

 

What are external methods? And what are they external to?

 

 

Over Forest of Emptiness' avatar, he (or she) defines himself as 'Direct Path Zen Buddhist.' I've always understood Direct Path to be the inner path, where one unfurls the contortions to find the straight shot. (Perhaps I've been misunderstanding Direct Path). My internal method was out of necessity because of a need to 'recover' from my previous derelict existence. But I have come to appreciate that not everybody needs to go there, especially to the extent that I did.

 

For me, the direct path is the path of direct experience. My mantra is "Investigate!"

[hagar]

it is a questions that is easy to answer bcause the answer is provided in the texts. So we know exactly what needs to be done and how to do it, it is not easy to do thou.

 

That was probably my not-so-well-articulated intention of the original post:

That eventhough the Daoist (and other) classics articulate the blueprint by way of allegory and metaphor, yet in reality it´s both subtle, scary, boring, confusing and even downright impossible from the point of the "me".

In real life we stand in this muddling through without ever being in the ideal circumstances of the so-called sages of old.

They were regular dudes with plagued with the urge.

The texts are idealized, and also in how they describe the alchemical or meditative process.

We all know it´s way more murky, fuzzy, winding and usually not-so-profound.

 

h

[hagar]

I think the will for enlightenment, as the Avatamsaka Sutra refers to, must be the driving force, although at the beginning, my impelling force was the will for sobriety; it then turned into something else some years later. Seemingly on its own, but I had to become K-active first.

 

Marbles and Chi Dragon - the acquired personality (or post natal personality) is that which is acquired by conditioning of conditions after birth; they are reactive conditions, not the pure Dao within that we were born with. It is this that must be eliminated, the reactive part, which leaves us with the pure. It results in the living, every day realization, that there is no differentiation between the 10,000 things; that our bodies and the chair we're sitting on are all made out of the same matter, although with differently combined molecules. A pure joy is realized; it is as though an alchemical process has occurred within our minds, and we never see the world the same again.

 

Taoist Texts - could you recommend a Taoist Text at the same level of the Avatamsaka Sutra? I love to compare all types of philosophical texts and see the commonalities within. The answers can be found in the Bible as well, but unfortunately you have to remove all the lore.

And what did it turn into years later?

 

h

[hagar]

As luck would have it, I just sat down to read, I'm on page 980 of the Avatamsaka Sutra. There is a paragraph here that goes directly to what Hagar was pointing at, IMO:

 

"The nature of things is uncreate, unchanging,

Fundamentally pure, like space:

So also is the purity of nature of buddhas -

Their fundamental nature is not a nature, is beyond being and nonbeing."

 

Although much more eloquently put by some luminescent being , =) , this rings true for me at least.

In "return" the text points beyond the dual, the contigent. So in a sense, it also points beyond what we can be "aware".

That´s also approaching the boundary of language. Yet, here in glimpses, there has been a perception of the "original energy", unconditioned and pure. This pure energy is, from an alchemical path, something to attain, yet not through trying, but through falling through, like a drop falling into the ocean. If you have felt this pure energy, even once, it changes everything. So in a sense, I feel that what we are talking about is not a transcendence, but letting something catch you, find you again. Something else is looking for itself in you, not the other way around. This is return. (possibly)

 

This kind of terrain is really tricky yet fascin

[manitou]

 

 

 

For me, the direct path is the path of direct experience. My mantra is "Investigate!"

Does this include your innards?

[manitou]

And what did it turn into years later?

 

h

The will for sobriety turned into the will for enlightenment.

[manitou]

 

Yet, here in glimpses, there has been a perception of the "original energy", unconditioned and pure. This pure energy is, from an alchemical path, something to attain, yet not through trying, but through falling through, like a drop falling into the ocean. If you have felt this pure energy, even once, it changes everything. So in a sense, I feel that what we are talking about is not a transcendence, but letting something catch you, find you again. Something else is looking for itself in you, not the other way around. This is return. (possibly)

 

This kind of terrain is really tricky yet fascin

I don't believe anybody can accuse you of being ineloquent, Mr. H.

 

No, I don't see it as an attainment or transcendence either. It has been elimination that has brought me closer to the Pure. And another proof is when we become capable of manipulating energy, IMO. As in healings. Personally, I think the Something Else you refer to is our Pure Self trying to get us back. I agree - once felt, never forgotten; it becomes an Awareness, like a type of re-chemicalization of the brain, that stays with us from moment to moment. Whether this pure energy is felt in meditation, or in the form of Kundalini energy that comes up through your legs from the ground - you are right. We are never the same.

 

As I write this, I am seeing an analogy between our 'return to the Pure' (or however we wish to tag it) and some religious philosophies where there has been a 'falling from heaven' type of scenario and the opportunity for redemption, as in an archangel sense.

Edited December 16, 2014 by manitou

[Taoist Texts]

That was probably my not-so-well-articulated intention of the original post:

That eventhough the Daoist (and other) classics articulate the blueprint by way of allegory and metaphor, yet in reality it´s both subtle, scary, boring, confusing and even downright impossible from the point of the "me".

In real life we stand in this muddling through without ever being in the ideal circumstances of the so-called sages of old.

They were regular dudes with plagued with the urge.

The texts are idealized, and also in how they describe the alchemical or meditative process.

We all know it´s way more murky, fuzzy, winding and usually not-so-profound.

 

h

Hmmm, no;). Not that it matters but i completely disagree with you, especially on "murky, fuzzy" thing. From my perspective and judging by your accounts you have made great progress and now you have stalled because you dont know what the next step should be and whether there is a next step at all. You can PM me if you wish, but then again its your life and your reality. We all live in realities of our choosing.

[Michael Sternbach]

Over Forest of Emptiness' avatar, he (or she) defines himself as 'Direct Path Zen Buddhist.' I've always understood Direct Path to be the inner path, where one unfurls the contortions to find the straight shot. (Perhaps I've been misunderstanding Direct Path).

 

Oh, it is my understanding, too (just for mutual sanity check - unless we are both nuts). A practitioner of Rinzai Zen seeking "direct enlightenment" would typically agonize over an intellectually unsolvable riddle (koan) for months to unfurl those conditions. Note however that this involves a process, too, so to be honest, the "direct paths" are not that different from methods like Soto Zen which take a gradual development for granted (at least that's what the Zen monk I was meditating with in the late 80s told me).

 

My internal method was out of necessity because of a need to 'recover' from my previous derelict existence. But I have come to appreciate that not everybody needs to go there, especially to the extent that I did.

 

Rest assured, you are not the only one here who has a little past.

 

 

But wouldn't the eightfold path include the inner component as well? I know that within occult Yogi philosophy it does. Even don Juan Mateus had Castaneda do a life recapitulation that he worked on for years.

 

On the other hand, maybe constant exposure to the Light (through transmission by a Master or texts) will produce the very same results. Who's to say? Who's to judge? How is the comparison made?

 

I think the only possible way to make a comparison would be to look at the temperament, the patience, the humor, and the Love of the subject in question.

 

Yes - in principle. However, you hear so many shocking stories about highly revered masters that you are better off being not too shockable.

 

I believe the proof is in the pudding. Another way to view this would be to look at the manifestations around us. Are they what we want? Or are they chronically unsatisfactory, with the same negative scenarios replaying themselves over and over?

 

Right - the reality check. "New Age literature" gets quite a lot of bad press on TTB, especially from the (in some way) more traditionally minded cultivators here, even though (or because?) it emphasizes self-mastery using the environment as a mirror. Which makes cultivating something quite different from when it's done in the quiet, harmonious and safe seclusion of a monastery on a mountaintop.

 

 

Such a good question. But WE ARE the manifester - and if things aren't according to our preference, there is some inner work that still needs to be done. We can't manifest in its purest state, we can't manifest Joy and love for others, if we're manifesting through a lens of anger, or jealousy, selfishness, or excessive ego.

 

Yes, emotional constraints which can be lessened by methods of meditation and visualization and/or by using vibrational remedies such as the Bach Flower Remedies.

[Marblehead]

Even once in a while the dirtiest person should take a shower

Even though I "Like"ed that post I will not speak to it.

[Marblehead]

The internal methods exist and there is an arduous path ahead... but in the end, it is the local mind.body in control.

 

I find the external methods are natural and direct to the source.

 

Maybe this is another topic but your posts have made me think about this...

Yes, a different topic but it could be a good one. (And a testy one too.)

 

I do agree with you because that is how I arrived at where I am.

[forestofemptiness]

From here, it is all innards.

 

Does this include your innards?

[steve]

Origin bump:

 

First, I have been too busy to read up on this surprisingly long thread. (probably a record for me). Have to read up soon...

 

Second; I recallibrated my objective with my initial question. I´m curious what you guys relate to the question of returning to the source as in what must be left behind? If Neidan´s primary objective is return, what separates the body/energy path from others? Immortality is a metaphor, but not only that. Inducing the alchemical process is also taking something with you while also transcending.

In my experience; the "return" is also about something dying. Not necessarily the body, but what is this "something"?

 

It takes so many different forms at different times in our lives but what seems to be the core element that must "die", this "something", is ignorance.

 

Ignorance is the fundamental illusion we develop, and continually reinforce, that there is a separate, independent, "me" inside this bag of skin that is distinct from the environment that surrounds "me". It is the error that creates an illusion of solidity out of space and awareness. Ignorance is the idea that the thought which claims the responsibility of thinker and doer is anything more than just another thought. Ignorance is the tendency we have to attach ourselves to an identity based on the roles we play in life. These roles include our profession or job, our relationship to others (father, daughter, wife, friend, etc..), nationality, religion, gender - anything we can (and do) identify with. It is those identities which, when they clash with what is (as opposed to what "should be"), lead to pleasure and pain. We can work our way through each of these identities, which is very difficult and time consuming, or cut it off at the root - the fundamental process of identification, much more subtle and profound. And at some point, we must even realize that the one who seeks to do this is just another illusion, the seeking is the problem, another manifestation of ignorance, and simply rest in that from which all of this manifests. The common theme here is that ignorance seems to be a tendency to create substance out of space, a tendency for collapse rather than expansion, a grasping rather than letting go, an arresting of entropy, which creates something concrete out of emptiness and awareness. It is at the core of our life experience.

 

I don't know that we actually ever let go of anything or that anything dies. It seems more that there is the recognition that even all of this which is ignorance and cause for confusion is still a manifestation of that which we feel we are lacking, that source. As you said, it is always already who and what we are and it is unchanging, uncreated, and unceasing. I think that what we are letting go of, what is dying, is habit. If you roll up a piece of paper for 20 years then let it unroll, what does it do? We have been rolled up in one way or another for countless lifetimes. You can look at that metaphorically but also, in reality, the conditioning gets passed down from generation to generation, its propagated throughout cultures and society. We are quite rolled up. As we allow ourselves to unroll and see that we are that very same paper, whether rolled or not, we sort of transcend the need to distinguish rolled from unrolled and simply rest as we are.

 

Anyway, some random responses to a great thread. I'll probably have a different response tomorrow or in an hour.

[manitou]

Wow, Steve. Just, Wow!

 

I love your talk of space. It's actually rather comforting knowing that I am more of a ghost than a solid, walking around in this illusion of solidity. Like a thin cloud floating through the sky. Just a speck of awareness holding it all together.... Or, as a very wise Tao Bum has in his signature paragraph:

 

"When I look inside and see that I am nothing, that is wisdom.

When I look outside and see that I am everything, that is love.

And between these two, my life turns."

[ChiDragon]

Original innocence; what does it mean, beyond our ideas about it?

As a child we did things based on how we were inspired by our true nature. We just lived. Did things. There was no shame in what we did because, for us, it was natural for us to do that whatever. We didn't even understand the duality of right/ wrong, good/bad.

 

But then we got scolded when we did something that our parents, peers or others that "they" didn't want you to do. This is the beginning of the loss of our innocence, of our original nature.

 

The challenge then is to find a lifestyle that is compatible with our original nature, causes us no inner conflicts, but yet is more-or-less acceptable by society, in general.

 

This requires a lot of unlearning and a lot more learning. No easy task.

 

From a Taoist point of view.....

Why do Taoists cultivate the mind and body....???

 

The origin of human was born with an innocent mind and a healthy body. Human looses the innocence as one grows older due the environmental influence. Furthermore, the health of the body was weaken by the bad habits which was picked up as the mind was being corrupted.

 

Taoist had come up with the Dual Cultivation of the Xing and Ming(DCXM) to return to the innocence of the mind and the state of homeostasis of the body. Hence, this is what "return to the origin" was meant to me.

[hagar]

It takes so many different forms at different times in our lives but what seems to be the core element that must "die", this "something", is ignorance.

 

Ignorance is the fundamental illusion we develop, and continually reinforce, that there is a separate, independent, "me" inside this bag of skin that is distinct from the environment that surrounds "me". It is the error that creates an illusion of solidity out of space and awareness. Ignorance is the idea that the thought which claims the responsibility of thinker and doer is anything more than just another thought. Ignorance is the tendency we have to attach ourselves to an identity based on the roles we play in life. These roles include our profession or job, our relationship to others (father, daughter, wife, friend, etc..), nationality, religion, gender - anything we can (and do) identify with. It is those identities which, when they clash with what is (as opposed to what "should be"), lead to pleasure and pain. We can work our way through each of these identities, which is very difficult and time consuming, or cut it off at the root - the fundamental process of identification, much more subtle and profound. And at some point, we must even realize that the one who seeks to do this is just another illusion, the seeking is the problem, another manifestation of ignorance, and simply rest in that from which all of this manifests. The common theme here is that ignorance seems to be a tendency to create substance out of space, a tendency for collapse rather than expansion, a grasping rather than letting go, an arresting of entropy, which creates something concrete out of emptiness and awareness. It is at the core of our life experience.

 

I don't know that we actually ever let go of anything or that anything dies. It seems more that there is the recognition that even all of this which is ignorance and cause for confusion is still a manifestation of that which we feel we are lacking, that source. As you said, it is always already who and what we are and it is unchanging, uncreated, and unceasing. I think that what we are letting go of, what is dying, is habit. If you roll up a piece of paper for 20 years then let it unroll, what does it do? We have been rolled up in one way or another for countless lifetimes. You can look at that metaphorically but also, in reality, the conditioning gets passed down from generation to generation, its propagated throughout cultures and society. We are quite rolled up. As we allow ourselves to unroll and see that we are that very same paper, whether rolled or not, we sort of transcend the need to distinguish rolled from unrolled and simply rest as we are.

 

Anyway, some random responses to a great thread. I'll probably have a different response tomorrow or in an hour.

 

Really liked your metaphor of the rolled up paper Steve. Compelling description and great post. Again, you seem to be moving into what to me is non-dual language, but the essence of what you are saying is the same in all contemplative traditions,

 

What I am curious about is what your experience of what the alchemical process, which is basically a process of refinement, says about "returning"?

 

h

[manitou]

And yet if we rest as we are without getting down to the I Am, we will continually manifest insane conditions over and over. The I Am I speak of is not of the Ego - it is the burning coal within all of us that came from the same fire.