How good is Michael Winn's information?

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Just looked at his site, and he seems to have alot of information. His site is all over the place though and hard to understand.

 

What im asking is his stuff "Authentic"?

 

He is a Mantak Chia student? Also he said on his forum he studied with max years ago, so how long has max been teaching publicly and what other information was MAX teaching him in those years?

 

WYG

[Yoda]

Winn has studied mostly with Chia but also with lots of other teachers too. It sounds like he only did a weekend thing with Max, so that's probably not a big feature of his teachings. My favorite Winn teaching is primordial chikung taichi type of a routine that I do on special occasions.

 

The production quality on his information can be low. (I have his fundamentals set, but it didn't have any sound and I never got around to asking for an exchange. My primordial dvd worked fine, though.)

 

Yours,

Yoda

[Bak Mei]

I never went to any retreats with Michael Winn like some of the people on this forum, but I did manage to get some of his lectures on cd, all in all, he has some good thing to talk about but I'm not that impressed with what he teaches. He studied with chia in the beginning and helped write "Taoist Secrets of Love" with chia and a few other books. It can also be called into question how complete Chia's teachings are/ were because Chia is notorious for "dumbing down", changing, and borrowing his teachings. All in all, I would take whatever Winn says with a bigggg grain of salt. However, Im not giving much to Lama Dorje either. I dont find the representation made thus far impressive, somewhat misguided and confusing actually. I asked about his Lama connections and got a lot expert opinions that he wasnt much: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=55641

 

Also, Kunlun seems like other "spontaneous" practices out there, most notable, and maybe the original brought to the west was with Osho Rajneesh.. I originally wanted to go to the LA seminar, but soon lost interest after what my gut told me. However, I still have not totally written the guy off. If there is an overwhelming positive amount of feedback for the more than sufficient seminar goers here in a few months, perhaps then I will check him out.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Funny you mention Osho cause i also had that vision come to my head when i 1st saw Lama Dorje's students getting spontanious movement.

 

Have you read any of Osho's books on Tao?

[Bak Mei]

 

Have you read any of Osho's books on Tao?

 

Nope, what books?

[Trunk]

What im asking is his stuff "Authentic"?

If you put that with a capital "A", I'd have to say (imho), "no".

 

I think that Michael has worked very hard to improve the initial HT offerings, and he has. It is his role to evolve-mature-refine those teachings as much as he can during his generation. He also played a major role in the starting of the HT (wrote many, 7?, of the books).

 

But when you say, "Authentic", there are rather unforgiving standards. There are a lot of factors that go into achieving those standards, and our culture just doesn't have broad supportive resources yet. It's still early in a multi-generational project of sufficiently rooting eastern wisdom in the west. Just the title of the western Buddhist magazine, "Tricycle", says a lot about that. It's a genuinely big task, that is much bigger than any one teacher or organization. Everyone does what they can, it adds up over time.

 

he said on his forum he studied with max years ago,

It's hard to say what the nature and extent of their interaction was. He's told similar stories that, uh, "didn't check out" before.

 

My favorite Winn teaching is primordial chikung taichi type of a routine that I do on special occasions.

Every posted mention that I've ever seen re: Winn's primordial has been very positive.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I wonder if its any relation to my teachers art "Primoridal Chaos One Chi Palm" Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jurng system?

 

What does his form or forms of Primordial chi kung look like?

 

Bak Mei

 

Osho has many books all from his lectures i downloaded, from Tao, to many types of information. His series on Path of Tao is one of the most interesting breakdowns ive read on Dao Te Ching.

 

regards

WYG

 

P.S Do you practise Bak Mei Pai?

[Bak Mei]

I just saw the one book :When the Shoe Fits

 

Yes, I have trained White Eyebrow and Long Ying (dragon) for a decade. Here is my teacher in San Francisco:

http://www.undergroundkungfu.com/

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I train bak mei from 2 branches CLC and Omie mnt bak mei that isnt CLC branch for 21 yrs now.

 

I think your Sifu's father can be traced back to Guangzhou Bak Mei if im correct but also is Futsan bak mei, yes?

[Bak Mei]

I train bak mei from 2 branches CLC and Omie mnt bak mei that isnt CLC branch for 21 yrs now.

 

I think your Sifu's father can be traced back to Guangzhou Bak Mei if im correct but also is Futsan bak mei, yes?

 

Very interesting, not that many people train white eyebrow in the west as there are very few teachers.

 

Yes, Sigong is pretty well known Grandmaster from Futsan, with many thousands of students over his many years as teacher. Here they are on a cover of a magazine when he was in the states : http://undergroundkungfu.com/sifu.php Very interesting is Sigong still lives and breathes kung fu even in his old age. I used to live at the old school and sometimes I would find him at 4 in the morning doing forms and hitting sandbags.

 

pictures: http://undergroundkungfu.com/pics/index.php?gallery=./sigong

Edited September 17, 2007 by Bak Mei

[steve]

Funny you mention Osho cause i also had that vision come to my head when i 1st saw Lama Dorje's students getting spontanious movement.

 

Have you read any of Osho's books on Tao?

 

 

Nope, what books?

Osho's disciples transcribed many of his talks. He has three books devoted to Daoist works to my knowledge. When the Shoe Fits and The Empty Boat are both devoted to commentaries on selected parables of Zhuangzi (Chuang-tzu). Tao: The Pathless Path is devoted to commentary on excerpts of Liezi (Lieh-tzu). I find Daosim to be where Osho really shines. His interpretations and expositions on Daoist thought, stimulated by Zhuangzi and Liezi, really resonate with me. He sometimes contradicts himself and his life betrayed his human weakness (like all of us). His style is very distinctive and puts some people off. He filters Daoism through his own culture and approach which, although very anti-establishment and anti-religious, can be as dogmatic as those he criticizes... My favorite is When the Shoe Fits - highly recommended!

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I have other Osho books apart the ones you have secrets of the golden flower i think there is a Zen one as well.

 

regards

WYG

[三江源]

.

Edited July 18, 2014 by cat

[steve]

Is Osho the bloke who took everyone's money and shagged everyone in sight of his rolls royce?

 

or am I getting him mixed up with some other guru?

He was implicated in a lot of shady stuff, including murder, tax evasion... I think he did some jail time. He drove Rolls Royces and wore very expensive jewelry. I've heard he availed himself of the charms of many of his female disciples. Some of his disciples were apparently pretty nutty as well and it's tough to know how much was his corruption vs his disciples' vs trumped up charges in an attempt to discredit him. He was very threatening to the establishment during his heyday. The wikipedia has a nice overview of his controversial and short life. Nevertheless, his writings on Dao are very insightful. When I'm a guru, I wanna be just like Osho...

[cloud recluse]

Is Osho the bloke who took everyone's money and shagged everyone in sight of his rolls royce?

 

or am I getting him mixed up with some other guru?

 

No,youre pretty much right on the ball there. You just forgot to add the bodycount .

[cloud recluse]

.... He was very threatening to the establishment during his heyday. The wikipedia has a nice overview of his controversial and short life. Nevertheless, his writings on Dao are very insightful. When I'm a guru, I wanna be just like Osho...

 

"Osho" ( Mohan Chandra Rajneesh) didnt threaten shit ! In his actions,he turned out totally pro-establishment, but pissed off that he didnt have political power himself.

 

He was the self-professed"Rich mans guru", & ended up repackaging western consumerism in a pseudo-'tantric' con game.

 

He upset a few Christian conservatives ( like thats hard ) & intimidated the elderly residents of a small Oregon town. When he started in India, he was initially radical,in order to get attention . But there wasnt enough money in it, & he desperately wanted to be the fascistic Hindu 'God-Man ' that he claimed to despise.

 

He died a miserable, fearful bitter creature. Do you really want to be like him ( I dont know how seriously you meant that ). He wasnt just indulgent, he became downright venemous! No one reasonably expects Gurus to be perfect, but they should at least be creative in their actual life, not actively poisinous!

 

But study him by all means,but study his actual life as well as his clever writings. As a particular exercise, its good to pick the point in his advice where it croses over from recommending a healthy flexibility into a subtle destabilising of your personal judgement & individual worth.

 

Im serious, he is a very useful & illuminating study, especially in how intial peak kundalini experiences dont guarantee ongoing psychological intergration. In Mohans case,he became very malicious, callous & destructive. In that respect, check out James S. Gordons THE GOLDEN GURU, if its still in print.

 

Regards,Cloud

Edited September 21, 2007 by cloud recluse

[steve]

Do you really want to be like him ( I dont know how seriously you meant that ).

OH, I don't know, 90 Rolls Royces, more Rolexes than wrists, more women than Snoop,, it's a start...

[Mal]

OSHO died a miserable, fearful bitter creature. Do you really want to be like him ( I dont know how seriously you meant that )

 

That's really sad. He certanly sounded like he had found the "way" But now I hear that he failed.....

 

I love his books so much. The way he talks just makes perfect sense to me. I can't pick up one of his books without reading for much longer than I meant to.

 

I'll admit that I never bothered to find out anything about his life that wasn't written by him.

Actually I'm quite depressed now as I seriously would love to be like Osho. Perhaps I need to change that to:

 

I would love to be the man I think Osho is

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Everyone falls off the path from time to time, i wont judge the man as i wasnt around or seen any of what happened. Although his books and the way his lectures his students has some very good insightful information.

 

The books are worth reading dont get caught up in his life though!

[steve]

I think that it's just another facet of the experience that power corrupts...

He started as a visionary with (presumably) good and altruistic motivation. His initial movement in India was radical and visionary. His teachings were illuminating and insightful. Ultimately, he demonstrated that we are all imperfect and subject to human weakness and frailty. It really is sobering to see someone you admire from afar up close... I've seen it in many people that I once admired... I'm trying to learn to admire their positive qualities and accept and love them in spite of their failures.

[freeform]

What's wrong with having loads of cars and rolex's?

 

how can one tell whether he really 'died a miserable, fearful, bitter creature.'?

 

Nothing wrong with having concensual sex with students...

 

 

He's obviously a man who likes to play with people's pereceptions - and just like Alistair Crowley it becomes hard to 'get where he's coming from'... Crowley, by some was seen as the evilest man in history, by others he was seen as a genius. Which is the 'correct' view? I personally think that's a counterproductive question...

 

Where can one find a proper, unbiased overview of Osho's life? I'm willing to see both beauty and ugliness - in any human, including this osho... I mean it's easy to demonise - it certainly creates a compelling drama... isn't that what attracts some of us to stories of masters fallen from grace?

[三江源]

.

Edited July 18, 2014 by cat

[cloud recluse]

I would seriously recommend THE GOLDEN GURU if you want a balanced assessment by someone who was neither sannyasi nor cynic,who was involved but never 'joined'. Its not a crude guru-bash at all.

 

But this is drifting WAY off Michael Winn. I do think its a productive area of discussion though. Is anyone interested in a Rajnessh thread.

 

I want to emphasise that I myself AM NOT interested in knee-jerk guru-bashing ! I just think that rajneesh is an excellent example of potent transpersonal experences, accompanied by genuine insight, but some destructive developments .

 

I DO NOT have a problem with luxurious indulgence either ,but that is not what Im concerned about in the case of Rajneesh.

 

Is anyone interested in a more detailed discussion ?

[Smile]

I talked to some of his close students and they said most of the stuff said in public is way overblown or just lies. The government saw a real threat in what he was teaching.

[freeform]

thanks Cloud_Recluse. I realise he is the guy I saw a documentary about, who was pretty sinister. I have some rich friends who gave him tons of money too. they lived in his community for years and came out none the wiser, but considerably poorer and having had plenty of group sex.

Had to emphasise your point about how peak experiences are just that, and nothing more. Really excellent point.

 

 

I remember seeing a clip of an interview with him and thought the exact opposite of 'sinister'... I cant remember what was said, but the female reporter asked him something sober and 'newsworthy' and he turned the question around and focused all of his awareness on her, and very 'unreporterly' she lost her words, her face flushed red and she glowed - her identity of 'newsreporter' and whatever other bits of identity she had really seemed to disappear for a moment - her 'piece to camera' was almost non-sensical - it was like a child pretending to be a newsreporter... I was impressed...

 

but other than that, I've not studied much of him...

 

 

....aaand back to Michael Winn....