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Scottish Independence

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Today the people of Scotland vote on whether to remain part and parcel of the United Kingdom or go it alone. It is an emotive business and the outcome is uncertain.

braveheart_quote_by_ninja_steven-d4lup6t

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My Mother was a Scot but I consider myself an Englishman. I fear that the vote will be emotion rather than reason driven.

 

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Its not really independence, if they leave the UK they will join the EU and Euro leaving them with less independence than they have now, being ruled by politicians and having their economics dictated to by Brussels. As the recent crisis showed if there was any future economic crisis in Scotland they would then have to take their orders from Angela Merkel in Germany. Then even if they kept the pound their economy would be dictated to by London but they would have less say and influence on those decisions than they do now. Strange sounding independence to me.

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Its not really independence, if they leave the UK they will join the EU and Euro leaving them with less independence than they have now, being ruled by politicians and having their economics dictated to by Brussels. As the recent crisis showed if there was any future economic crisis in Scotland they would then have to take their orders from Angela Merkel in Germany. Then even if they kept the pound their economy would be dictated to by London but they would have less say and influence on those decisions than they do now. Strange sounding independence to me.

 

Yes this sums it up very nicely.

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I don't pay much attention to politics, but as far as this... we're a democracy, apparently, so it doesn't really matter what's "better", just what people are convinced they want (not to say that any other form of government would be "better").

 

 

 

"Each and every one of us has a job to do to convince our fellow citizens to vote by a majority for a new dawn for Scotland. A land of opportunity and also a land of fairness. So let's do it, and let's do it now.

 

"We need this, we need this to happen. This time isn't about me, it isn't about the SNP or the Labour party or the Tories or any political party. It's about you, it's about your family, your hopes, your ambitions. Don't let them tell us we can't. Let's do this now."

Salmond for "Yes"

 

"There is not a cemetery in Europe that does not have Scots, English, Welsh and Irish lined side by side.

 

"We not only won these wars together, we built the peace together. What we have built together by sacrificing and sharing, let no narrow nationalism split asunder ever."

Brown for "No"

 

The sophistry continues...

Edited by dustybeijing

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My prediction, the vote gets engineered for the correct outcome, just like we see with most "voting." Scotland will stay with Britain no matter how many of them vote for independence, because what matters is who counts the vote, not who votes what. I dont think they'll go full Obama and generate 115% turnout in the densely populated areas that they need to make up some votes, but the outcome will be managed nonetheless.

 

What's to say they're going to immediately turn towards the EU, though? They dont like the frying pan, those logs on the fire look nice and comfy, in a fire and brimstone sort of fashion?

 

The EU needs to die already, it is such a contrivance its not even funny. I know, I know, stepping stone to the one world government and all. That's a contrivance also that should not ever happen.

 

 

 

This is why the vote for independence wont happen, right here: oil.

 

(1) The UK can now borrow cheaply using the giant Scottish oil reserves as collateral

 

(2) If Scotland leaves, the collateral (oil reserves) is no longer available

 

(3) So the cost of borrowing money for Britain skyrockets

 

 

Cui Bono?

 

I dont see how it is a good idea at all for the Scots to stay with Britain. Conversely, it is quite important for britain's poor finances to have access to that.

 

What do the Scots get out of staying, other than continuing their position under thumb?

Edited by joeblast
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Polls have closed now so we'll know eventually.

My call... No by a narrow margin.

However it pans out they'll still have a bunch of politicians running the show.

Edited by GrandmasterP

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It is never difficult to distinguish between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine."

 

( P.G. Wodehouse).

Edited by GrandmasterP
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"What distinguishes the current moment is that discontent with the way things have been going is so high as to test many people's tolerance for the governing institutions as they currently exist."

 

the discontent is surely not confined to scotland's borders.

Edited by zerostao
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My prediction, the vote gets engineered for the correct outcome, just like we see with most "voting." Scotland will stay with Britain no matter how many of them vote for independence, because what matters is who counts the vote, not who votes what.

 

You almost quoted Joseph Stalin verbatim: "Any voting anywhere determines absolutely nothing. Who counts the votes determines everything." I guess he had a pretty good idea of what he was talking about.

 

No, wait... he was talking about an undemocratic totalitarian voting style, right? Whereas elsewhere... elsewhere, of course, we the people determine everything with our votes, don't we? And we the people count the votes too, don't we? Let's see...

 

In the US, millionaires constitute 1% of the population. In the US Congress, millionaires constitute 50%. That's because we voted for them, right?..

 

...Still, I hope whoever counts the Scots votes will make sure there's no "independence" mentioned in the outcome or we'll have to have the EU hit Russia with some more sanctions. And then whether Europe freezes over this winter or not is anybody's guess. Winter is coming.

Edited by Taomeow
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In the US, millionaires constitute 1% of the population. In the US Congress, millionaires constitute 50%. That's because we voted for them, right?..

 

Totalitarianism wears many faces, or hats, or whatever. This thing is the end of demo-cracy as we know it:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership

 

There are clauses in there allowing corporations to sue governments for damages and loss of profit if a nation's laws prevent them from doing anything they want.

 

US pharma concerns can sue (and win against) the German government for the right to advertise prescription drugs in the public media (not permitted here), for example.

 

Fracking, gmo (including Bayer), etc., all of them will have the power to move in and set up operations as they see fit. The people and their representatives will have no say in it.

 

 

 

Anyway, glad the process is over in the UK for now :)

 

If it had gone through, it could have inspired the more nationalistic Bavarians to try the same thing here!

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Totalitarianism wears many faces, or hats, or whatever. This thing is the end of demo-cracy as we know it:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership

 

There are clauses in there allowing corporations to sue governments for damages and loss of profit if a nation's laws prevent them from doing anything they want.

 

US pharma concerns can sue (and win against) the German government for the right to advertise prescription drugs in the public media (not permitted here), for example.

 

Fracking, gmo (including Bayer), etc., all of them will have the power to move in and set up operations as they see fit. The people and their representatives will have no say in it.

 

 

 

Anyway, glad the process is over in the UK for now :)

 

If it had gone through, it could have inspired the more nationalistic Bavarians to try the same thing here!

 

My sympathy is with those who tried and lost.

 

They couldn't win -- nothing is won via any "democratic process" whatsoever these days (or any days for that matter). As Al Capone once said, you can always get what you want with a kind word and a gun. They had the kind word -- please let us go -- but they didn't have the gun. So, the outcome was predestined.

 

And don't worry about those Bavarians. If no one arms them and sicks them on anybody, nor anyone arms their opposition and sicks on them, they'll stay put. Everybody stays put until/unless this is done. But if/when this is done... then we get something else altogether.

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Its not really independence, if they leave the UK they will join the EU and Euro leaving them with less independence than they have now, being ruled by politicians and having their economics dictated to by Brussels. As the recent crisis showed if there was any future economic crisis in Scotland they would then have to take their orders from Angela Merkel in Germany. Then even if they kept the pound their economy would be dictated to by London but they would have less say and influence on those decisions than they do now. Strange sounding independence to me.

 

It would have been much messier than that. I heard that it would have taken no less then 5 years to be a Euro member,...the Spanish already condemning any "fast tract."

 

Anyway,...by rejecting independence, they may actually be acquiring greater independence, considering the concessions that the British PM offered.

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The great problem with the democratic process is that lunatics and idiots are also allowed to vote. In the case of Scottish independence more idiots have voted to remain in the union than to leave it. For this I am grateful. :D

 

It also appears that the English may at last be granted more say in our own affairs. For years to describe yourself as English has been tantamount to being a racist. On official documentation in the UK, when describing your ethnic origins, the closest tick box to English is "White British" which is about as descriptive as calling yourself a European.

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They couldn't win -- nothing is won via any "democratic process" whatsoever these days (or any days for that matter). As Al Capone once said, you can always get what you want with a kind word and a gun. They had the kind word -- please let us go -- but they didn't have the gun. So, the outcome was predestined.

 

This is a very discussable point about the democratic process.

 

In Thailand, Yingluck Shinawatra won by a landslide,...but the Bangkok Elitist hated her populist programs, and removed her government in a coup. The Bangkok Elite now are attempting to initiate an undemocratic democracy,...that is, the right to vote, but all powers of a populist candidate will be removed. In Thailand, the Bangkok Elite have enjoyed, according to the World Bank, 14 times more of Thailand's revenue, than the rest of the Country,...which the Shinawatra governments rejected,...and which the Bangkok despised.

 

So in Thailand today, the majority are now under control of a minority.

 

Appears as unfair,...right?

 

But what about the view of a majority government,...that the majority dictates the standards? Does a majority rule offer any "freedom" to the minority?

 

In America,...although most believe in a majority rule system,...America is in fact, one nation under a Constitution. Although the Constitution sets up a representative democracy, it specifically was amended with the Bill of Rights in 1791 to uphold individual and minority rights. On constitutional matters we do not have majority rule. The majority has no right to tyrannize the minority on matters such as race, gender, or religion.

 

Thus, IMO,...a constitution must be approved by 100%,...not just a majority,...and, it should be re-approved by 100% for each generation,...or at least every third generation,...which in today's hateful society is probably not possible.

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Thankfully it's a no vote.

 

What was interesting was that when this referendum was set up the govt. assumed it would be a massive 'no' vote because of opinion polls. When opinion began to slide towards yes the panic from all the political parties in England was such that they jointly offered massively increased devolution status as a kind of bribe. Now let's see if this ever gets introduced.

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the closest tick box to English is "White British" which is about as descriptive as calling yourself a European.

 

I'd prefer just one box: κοσμοπολίτης

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I'd prefer just one box: κοσμοπολίτης

 

Where I come from, at one point it was a label for political undesirables.

 

People are impossible. All of us.

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