Why Does Tai Ji Starts with Slow Motion?

[ChiDragon]

You gave chinese.... SOURCE.

 

Explain it.

 

If one knows the basis of Tai Ji, this is self explanatory. I had many posts about this already. Do I need to explain this every time when the subject comes up.

 

Please don't start this again....!!!

[ChiDragon]

Here we go again with the teacher stuff. Never mind. I'll stop right here. There is a big difference in thinking between the eastern and western here. I will ban myself from this site.

[Daeluin]

Way to handle the seed of yin introduced after the full moon.

 

Edit: OK, a little more.

 

Really, this is for everyone.

 

I'll reply to ChiDragon.

You have 6,694 posts.

 

In all this time, have you studied the cycles of how people reflect your posts, following the ebb and flow of the moon? You are incredibly knowledgeable, and not the least bit dim, so I'd be very surprised if you didn't understand the concept of the waxing of yang energy followed by the introduction of yin conditioning forces.

 

In the past two weeks I notice a definite build up to the intensity of posts, in general, not just yours, but yours too. Now that we've entered the yin phase of the moon cycle, there is likely to be a change in momentum of your posting, as well as how others perceive, absorb and reflect your postings, and this pattern has likely been experienced in the many ebbs and flows of your 6,694 posts.

 

You can use this understanding as a tool for cultivation. If the patterns don't stop, change something. Observe the unfolding cycles over time. Change something else. Repeat until union with Tao.

 

The moon cycle is just one cycle of ebb and flow of yin and yang, but this is also the first complete moon cycle following the return of yin at the Summer solstice. Many of us are still adjusting to the yin phase of the Sun cycle.

 

We should all be on the lookout for observing and correcting patterns of conditioning while they're still small, to preserve the fullness of our energy as we return towards the heart of winter.

 

This is another reason why we practice slowness.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Daeluin

[Ya Mu]

Here we go again with the teacher stuff. Never mind. I'll stop right here. There is a big difference in thinking between the eastern and western here. I will ban myself from this site.

It was not meant in any way to be a negative comment. Only that you have SO MUCH potential with your enthusiasm, with some minor study on your part with a Teacher you could skyrocket your practice.

[dwai]

Cloudhands said

 

 

I know Tai Chi is not primarily design to cultivate energy but to destroy opponents (I get it). What I'm asking for is, is it possible for you to describe your practice comparatively to tai chi.

 

 

I can't agree with that statement. Tai Chi is primarily designed to build energy sensitivity, then cultivate energy and then transform a part of that energy into power (that can be used in various ways). It has always been the primary objective of Tai Chi to cultivate energy. Martials arts is an application of tai chi, healing is an application of tai chi.

 

Tai Chi is about connecting with Dao, by means of our Te (which is an energetic pattern that resonates with Dao within each and every one of us).

I've not experienced any form or Qi Gong that is more profound or powerful than Tai Chi. But then again, the system of Tai Chi I learn has mainly standing meditations of various types and single form practice. The long form practice that is normally associated with Tai chi in popular imagination is a sidebar in our practice. It is a way for us to evaluate whether we can take the energy flow in standing/single form meditation and maintain it through transitions till the long form becomes one single form.

 

The key is in the approach to Tai Chi. I see lots of people training tai chi to be able to using empty force (or near empty force) towards a self-defense (or sometimes even offense) objective. They have different energetic constitution from those who train tai chi with cultivation and Dao Gong in mind.

 

What I'm trying to say is, Martial application is the lowest form of Tai Chi. It is middle school stuff.

Edited July 13, 2014 by dwai

[Marblehead]

We should all be on the lookout for observing and correcting patterns of conditioning while they're still small, to preserve the fullness of our energy as we return towards the heart of winter.

 

This is another reason why we practice slowness.

I don't know where you got this but I like it. To rush into change causes misfortune.

[GrandmasterP]

YaMu's "intent" works for me.

Our path encourages..... "Cultivating with intention for the benefit of others."

Sounds altruistic but there's some "enlightened self interest" involved in that as well because a cultivator focusing intent upon another or others is less focused on her or his own 'self-centred' issues during the set.

Edited July 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Chang]

Cloudhands said

 

 

 

 

I can't agree with that statement. Tai Chi is primarily designed to build energy sensitivity, then cultivate energy and then transform a part of that energy into power (that can be used in various ways). It has always been the primary objective of Tai Chi to cultivate energy. Martials arts is an application of tai chi, healing is an application of tai chi.

 

Tai Chi is about connecting with Dao, by means of our Te (which is an energetic pattern that resonates with Dao within each and every one of us).

 

I've not experienced any form or Qi Gong that is more profound or powerful than Tai Chi. But then again, the system of Tai Chi I learn has mainly standing meditations of various types and single form practice. The long form practice that is normally associated with Tai chi in popular imagination is a sidebar in our practice. It is a way for us to evaluate whether we can take the energy flow in standing/single form meditation and maintain it through transitions till the long form becomes one single form.

 

The key is in the approach to Tai Chi. I see lots of people training tai chi to be able to using empty force (or near empty force) towards a self-defense (or sometimes even offense) objective. They have different energetic constitution from those who train tai chi with cultivation and Dao Gong in mind.

 

What I'm trying to say is, Martial application is the lowest form of Tai Chi. It is middle school stuff.

 

This depends very much on what you mean by Tai Chi. Are talking about Tai Chi Chuan and the form in particular?

 

If that is the case then practice of the Tai Chi Form does the following.

 

1. It allows us to practice stance, posture and correct movement.

 

2. It shows us a series of possibilities as regards martial applications.

 

The form alone was ever only one part of a complete system of mental, spiritual and physical developement and we should take care not to mistake a single part for the whole.

[Daeluin]

 

We should all be on the lookout for observing and correcting patterns of conditioning while they're still small, to preserve the fullness of our energy as we return towards the heart of winter.

 

This is another reason why we practice slowness.

 

I don't know where you got this but I like it. To rush into change causes misfortune.

 

Slowing down helps us learn to see and feel the ebb and flow of cycles. When too much is going on there are just so many layers of change, we can't even feel the primal waxing and waning in the moon, let alone our own lives.

 

When we slow down and empty the patterns out a bit, the noise lessens, and over time distinct patterns emerge. A mailing from Michael Winn helped me understand the time of year with most yang is not the summer solstice, but the full moon closest to the summer solstice. And the time of year with most yin is not the winter solstice, but new moon closest to winter solstice. After listening to these cycles for a couple years I can really feel that.

 

I find it helps to identify the exact moment of the culmination of yin or yang... the exact moment of the full or new moon. From there I observe my natural way of being and those around me. There are very definite changes. It's mysterious and beautiful.

 

This sensitizing of when a cycle is changing helps me become more aware of changes within the office or social worlds too...... here there is rarely a full wax or wane, but more of an wax, then little wane, little wax, little wane, etc... this is where the I-Ching comes in handy to understand the implications of more complicated patterns of yin/yang.

 

And of course this helps with energy work. I can better identify when I'm not allowing a full cycle to complete, but complicating it with different mixes of yin and yang, which then need to be dissolved to allow potential for the next pure cycle. And I'm starting to become more aware of how my natural breathing cycle is very out of sync with how my body wants to embryo breathe. I rather wonder if most of "us" are out of sync, or if it was my intentional trying to learn to become aware of my breath when I was 13 that started me getting out of sync.

 

As for where I got this.... the principle is in many of the classics in internal alchemy. What they call the "firing process" is the wax and wane of yin and yang. The I-Ching is a manual for the firing process. The 12 "sovereign" hexagrams show the process of the waxing and waning, while the others show the more complicated configurations.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

In particular, it is very important we understand hexagram 44, which describes the situation on the last page pretty well, and is possibly one of the most difficult types of change for us to adapt to.

 

I've created a new thread about this in the I-Ching forum so people can freely discuss their experiences there.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35552-hexagram-44-the-seed-of-yin-entering-the-yang/

[steve]

 

Thank you. The grammatical errors and the time involvement had been corrected.

 

The yi is the intent of the mind which directs the movements. I don't see how the yi need to be developed. The only thing I see is the coordination of the yi and the slow movements have to be developed.

The intent of the mind has ENORMOUS potential. If one never works on developing it in a specific and dedicated way, that is fine and the normal function of the mind will serve us as it is. The mind, like anything else, can be enhanced through the application of specific techniques and methods, very much like the body can be enhanced through exercise, and the physiology and energy enhanced through breathing work. The basic foundation of Daoist meditation methods is to develop the yi beyond it's normal everyday capacity. Every time I mention this to you, you simply disregard it as if it is meaningless. It is frustrating for me because I know how important it is and, like Ya Mu, I am impressed with how sincere and enthusiastic you are.

 

But there is no denying (at least for those of us who have had training in this area) that you are missing an important piece that could enhance your understanding and experience profoundly. A relatively small amount of focused practice in working with the yi in a skillful manner (in our system the basic method is the microcosmic circulation, but there are others) could potentially open up your understanding of these precious writings dramatically. And your ability to read Chinese and speak English is such a blessing! Imagine how much you could help us if you could not only read the source materials but also have a deeper understanding through experiential practice of these subtle and profound methods...

 

Anyway, sorry to ramble but I would hate to see you go.

To be brutally honest, however, it's equally frustrating to read some of your posts knowing that with a little bit of training you could have such deeper appreciation of this material.

So do what you've got to do but I hope you will take these words as they are intended - as a sincere and constructive appeal and offer of support.

 

 

And this is exactly what you are missing in your approach. What Steve says above (bold mine) is paramount in these skills.

However, I don't go along with the "standard" translation of Yi as "mind intent" when used in this context as I was taught that is is more than that. It involves the "true person" instead of just the western concept of "mind". One can, however, develop Yi concurrently with the energetics when applying Steve's "skillful training" mentioned above. I use the word INTENT as opposed to intent in order to distinguish between mind (in the western concept) and non-linear, quantum level energy manipulation.

I would love to hear more about your understanding and experience of INTENT. My teacher always referred to yi as "mind of intent" and, as you say, this implied much more than the mundane idea of intention that occurs to us when hearing the English word such as what ChiDragon seems to be referring to. My shifu was also was a man of VERY few words and so my own understanding is almost exclusively based on direct experience rather than specific instruction or description. I will say that having a science background I get a bit confused when words like "quantum" are used in this arena because it doesn't always relate to the more classical usage of the word, but I am completely open to hearing more of your perspective either publicly or privately and will gladly share as well. We could certainly take the discussion elsewhere so as not to derail this thread, however, nothing is more fundamental to skillful taijiquan practice and why it is done slowly than this very subject so perhaps best to continue here.

 

 

Here we go again with the teacher stuff. Never mind. I'll stop right here. There is a big difference in thinking between the eastern and western here. I will ban myself from this site.

I'm sorry to see you go but your frustration is as much a consequence of your expectations as it is of ours.

If you absolutely cannot accept the fact that there may be something missing from your approach to these teachings then you probably would be better off posting elsewhere because you will otherwise continue to be challenged here.

 

Best wishes whatever you decide ChiDragon.

I've been critical of you over the years but always with constructive intentions (except when I got very frustrated, perhaps).

_/\_

[ChiDragon]

I'm sorry to see you go but your frustration is as much a consequence of your expectations as it is of ours.

If you absolutely cannot accept the fact that there may be something missing from your approach to these teachings then you probably would be better off posting elsewhere because you will otherwise continue to be challenged here.

 

Best wishes whatever you decide ChiDragon.

I've been critical of you over the years but always with constructive intentions (except when I got very frustrated, perhaps).

_/\_

 

Steve....

Over the years, I think we are wearing the same shoes with our own frustration. I guess we both were trying to correct each other with our own conception/misconception. Somehow, it didn't work was due to our cultural differences in our understanding of the terminologies. The reason I ignored your responses, most of the time, was to avoid crashes between us. I was continued with my conversation and hope you would absorb some of it or realized somewhat. Most of the members had advised me to go find a teacher. Well, I guess I don't to have say much more about teachers by the reflection of your experience with your teacher.

 

I am glad that we have come to a mutual understand with our thinking. I know our thinking will not change but our voice in future conversation will be in a more friendlier tone. Let's not try to say who is right or wrong or correct each other or advise one to go find a good teacher. If I think that you are right or know more than I do, then, you are my teacher and vice versa. There is no need to go find a teacher elsewhere. There is an old saying: "Three is a company, there is a teacher among the three." We learn from the people that we are in contact with. There is no need to pay a high price for someone to learn from. Sometimes, it would be a waste of time and money. This is the information age, we ought to be able to find the right source somewhere. It is a matter of being impartial to evaluate the contents of the information.

 

PS....

You think I would be gone that quick for a small little thing like this, after all this talk about the Cultivation of the Mind. If I don't get suspended or banned by the administration, I might be here until the time has come for me.

 

Peace....!!!

_/\_

Edited July 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[steve]

 

Steve....

Over the years, I think we are wearing the same shoes with our own frustration. I guess we both were trying to correct each other with our own conception/misconception. Somehow, it didn't work was due to our cultural differences in our understanding of the terminologies. The reason I ignored your responses. most of the time, was to avoid crashes between us. I was continued with my conversation and hope you would absorb some of it or realized somewhat. Most of the members had advised me to go find a teacher. Well, I guess I don't to have say much more about teachers by the reflection of your experience with your teacher.

 

I am glad that we have come to a mutual understand with our thinking. I know our thinking will not change but our voice in future conversation will be in a more friendlier tone. Let's not try to say who is right or wrong or correct each other or advise one to go find a good teacher. If I think that you are right or know more than I do, then, you are my teacher and vice versa. There no need to go find a teacher elsewhere. There is an old saying: "Three is a company, there is a teacher among the three." We learn from the people that we are in contact with. There is no need to pay a high price for someone to learn from. Sometimes, it would be a waste of time and money. This is the information age, we ought to be able to find the right source somewhere. It is a matter of being impartial to evaluate the contents of the information.

 

PS....

You think I would be gone that quick for a small little thing like this, after all this talk about the Cultivation of the Mind. If I don't get suspended or banned by the administration, I might be here until the time has come for me.

 

Peace....!!!

_/\_

 

Thanks for the reply and peace be with you as well...

 

One last bit of information, because I am incorrigible - not everything can be transmitted by information.

There is a realm of experience that transcends thought and can be pointed to by the written word but only understood experientially.

This is why pushing hands can only be learned with a partner and the nature of mind usually requires the pointing out by a master (whether Daoist, Buddhist, Bön, Jewish, Jesuit, or Jain).

 

Good luck with your cultivation.

And I will do my best to maintain a friendlier demeanor, no matter what!

[ChiDragon]

There is a realm of experience that transcends thought and can be pointed to by the written word but only understood experientially.

This is why pushing hands can only be learned with a partner and the nature of mind usually requires the pointing out by a master (whether Daoist, Buddhist, Bön, Jewish, Jesuit, or Jain).

 

Here is my point of view about pushing hands. The key to the practice of ting jin(聽勁) is by the sense of touch. Of course, it can be told how is done but I don't see one's sensitivity can be taught by oral communication.

 

Yes, pushing hands is definitely has to be done with a partner. If I want to practice without a partner, then, what do I do.....???

Well, I can come up with a way but I must understand what is the requirement of pushing hands. By a scientific observation, pushing hands is to sense the dynamic changing force from the hands of the partner. Since it is a dynamic changing force, I can emulate this force by using a pendulum with a piece of rope and various weights. By swinging the suspended pendulum as it moves, its weight changes to a kinetic force, it is equivalent to the various changing force on the hand of the partner. The kinetic force in the weight can be sensed by using the low arm comes in contact with the weight. Thus I can do the practice by just going through the same motion as I was doing pushing hands.

 

One may be considered this is a crude way to practice pushing hands but, hey, it is a way.

 

 

 

[dwai]

This depends very much on what you mean by Tai Chi. Are talking about Tai Chi Chuan and the form in particular?

 

If that is the case then practice of the Tai Chi Form does the following.

 

1. It allows us to practice stance, posture and correct movement.

 

2. It shows us a series of possibilities as regards martial applications.

 

The form alone was ever only one part of a complete system of mental, spiritual and physical developement and we should take care not to mistake a single part for the whole.

Tai Chi Chuan is far more than just the forms. You are right, the form work (especially the long form) is like a trailer to a never-ending show (or the show that never ends)...and it starts when the audience tunes off

[steve]

 

....I don't see one's sensitivity can be taught by oral communication.

It can't, only by feel.

Words are a minor adjunct, whether written or spoken.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, pushing hands is definitely has to be done with a partner. If I want to practice without a partner, then, what do I do.....???

Well, I can come up with a way but I must understand what is the requirement of pushing hands. By a scientific observation, pushing hands is to sense the dynamic changing force from the hands of the partner. Since it is a dynamic changing force, I can emulate this force by using a pendulum with a piece of rope and various weights. By swinging the suspended pendulum as it moves, its weight changes to a kinetic force, it is equivalent to the various changing force on the hand of the partner. The kinetic force in the weight can be sensed by using the low arm comes in contact with the weight. Thus I can do the practice by just going through the same motion as I was doing pushing hands.

 

One may be considered this is a crude way to practice pushing hands but, hey, it is a way.

 

 

If you want to practice pushing hands without a partner the best way is to simply practice zhan zhuang.

If you build up to standing for a long period of time with your attention in your body (and beyond) and your mind quiet, then if you do eventually get instruction in pushing hands, you will progress MUCH faster.

 

Certainly there is value to using training aids but, by itself, this approach won't take you very far. If you don't believe me, I'd suggest you practice this way for a year and then visit a tai ji class and push hands with someone who has been practicing for the same amount of time.

See for yourself.

 

Or just do it and enjoy, if it feels right to you - that's fine too.

[Marblehead]

Or just do it and enjoy, if it feels right to you - that's fine too.

Yeah! I like to feel right even when I'm wrong.

[Fazeng]

 

If the former is required to develop the jin, then, where is the jin in the latter came from before the slow form....???

From special methods.

Taijiquan has some special training methods except the slow and fast forms.

[ChiDragon]

From special methods.

Taijiquan has some special training methods except the slow and fast forms.

Really.....!!

Are you saying that you can bypass the slow form and still can build up the Jin(勁) by practicing some special training methods....???

 

It sounds a little peculiar to me. May I ask do you practice Tai Ji Chuan or those methods....??? I also would like to hear something about those special training methods.

 

 

[steve]

Really.....!!

Are you saying that you can bypass the slow form and still can build up the Jin(勁) by practicing some special training methods....???

 

It sounds a little peculiar to me. May I ask do you practice Tai Ji Chuan or those methods....??? I also would like to hear something about those special training methods.

 

 

 

Ah, but my friend, why are you acting surprised? You are saying that you can bypass training with a partner and develop skill at pushing hands through special training methods - methods you are making up. Do you not find that peculiar???

[ChiDragon]

Ah, but my friend, why are you acting surprised? You are saying that you can bypass training with a partner and develop skill at pushing hands through special training methods - methods you are making up. Do you not find that peculiar???

 

My friend, I didn't bypass the pushing hands but I emulated part of it as I had indicated in the previous post.

 

I would like to hear from Fazeng about his special training methods to get the facts straight. I am very curious about how can I build up the Jin without practicing the fundamental basic movements first. This is the first time I have ever heard something like that. Wouldn't you like to hear about it too....???

Edited July 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[steve]

Not particularly.

There are many ways to build jin.

The form is only one method.

In yiquan, it is done with zhan zhuang.

In bagua, it is the circle.

In xingy, it is santishi.

 

The basic issue is how one understands the nature of jin...

[ChiDragon]

The basic issue is how one understands the nature of jin...

 

I agree but I still want to hear from Fazeng.

Edited July 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[GreytoWhite]

Thankful for the block function in this place otherwise I probably would have been too frustrated with the misinformation in the thread. Here is an example of quick movement used to build the kind of body and jin one needs for neijia.

 

[ChiDragon]

Thankful for the block function in this place otherwise I probably would have been too frustrated with the misinformation in the thread. Here is an example of quick movement used to build the kind of body and jin one needs for neijia.

 

I know your frustration. Perhaps you are aiming at posts.

 

FYI: The thing is that one must need to understand. We are not born with the jin prenatally. However, Jin has to be developed in the muscle tone before one can exert such tremendous force. The practitioner in the video has good muscle tone; there is not doubt that he had developed sometime in the past. Jin is different from the regular body strength. Jin is acquired from the practice of the slow movements. Jin is, also, a special term used by Tai Ji practitioners to describe this acquired strength from their practice.

Edited July 14, 2014 by ChiDragon