What can feminism do for men?

[Sloppy Zhang]

By equal pay, I mean for the exact same job.

 

i would also like to examine this statement as well.

 

Even MEN don't get exactly equal pay for exactly the same job/work.

 

There are lots of factors which contribute to pay:

1) Previous work experience

2) Budget when the company made the hire

3) Negotiations which took place between the applicant and hiring manager

3a) The applicant (did they fight to negotiate salary or sign on the first offer?)

3b) The hiring manager (do they lowball initial offers, are they open to salary negotiations, etc)

 

So (let's stereotype) even if a woman came in and was aggressive with exactly if not more background experience and did a lot of negotiating for salary, if the company was in a bad state at the time of her hire she STILL may have gotten less pay than someone else... who might even be a man.

 

There are a lot of reasons why companies don't like their employees talking about pay, and it's not JUST to keep men and women having different salaries.

 

Companies are there to make money for the SHAREHOLDERS, NOT for employees to be treated "fairly" (though treating employees fairly DOES tend to increase performance).

[dawei]

Also, I reported many of the offensive posts, and shortly after that the thread went to the pit.

 

Two people submitted 20 reports... That is unprecedented... If one looks at it from a staffing/resource level, it may seem an agenda to get something to the pit too.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Only because the rest of us were to disgusted to read every post...

[gendao]

By equal pay, I mean for the exact same job.

Well, it's hard to make any exact comparisons...but partial comparisons have shown that:

The federal Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that single women who have never married earned 96 percent of what men earned in 2012.

men tend to work more than 40 hours per week while women tend to work 35 to 39 hours, yet all those jobs are still considered full-time; women are more likely to drop out of the workforce temporarily to have children, meaning they have fewer years of experience when they return; mothers tend to seek jobs where they are willing to forego a higher salary in exchange for more flexible hours; women tend to choose vocations that offer lower pay in the labor market; and more men are likely to pursue high-risk occupations that pay more because of that risk.

Men work more than women ... on the job anyway ... at least in terms of overall hours. That's just one reason why when you make a general comparison of men's and women's earnings in most fields

In 39 of the occupations Farrell found, women's median earnings exceeded men's earnings by at least 5 percent and in some cases by as much as 43 percent.

So essentially, men are more likely to be workaholics (on-the-job), whereas women seek a healthier work-life balance and work a lot more at home instead (especially to raise & spend time with kids) too. I do think that any work done at home (especially daily tasks) is often underappreciated and undervalued, and that should definitely change. And everyone, including children, should do what they can to contribute to running a household.

But, if women want to continue to outearn men past 30, then they can just stay single, don't have kids or have them with a stay-at-home manny and work an extra half-hour a day like men do...

 

Or do you think that women who work less hours with less experience (for whatever reason) should still get paid the same as men with more...regardless? Is that the "equality"" you seek?

Edited June 27, 2014 by vortex

[HoldorFold]

I thought more people knew that the pay gap was a myth by now, but I guess it's taking it's taking a long time to enter the mainstream consciousness.

[tyler zambori]

Two people submitted 20 reports... That is unprecedented... If one looks at it from a staffing/resource level, it may seem an agenda to get something to the pit too.

 

No, it was an agenda to get the moderators to do something about it. Why didn't the moderators do something about it right away? The excuse seems to be that nobody reported anything during that whole week that thread was allowed to stay in the general discussion area, but hey you know what, don't the moderators at least take a look at the thread titles every day?

I'm pretty darn sure you all do.

 

The title of the thread gave its potential for trouble away immediately.

 

I don't wants thread to go to the pit, unless they are obvious trouble like that one.

But that wasn't even what I asked for. What I asked for was for the thread to be

locked immediately, and for an announcement to be made.

 

An announcement was made, but the thread locking happened eventually.

[tyler zambori]

But what I'd really prefer is a "bathroom wall" where the offending posts can go, and leave

the original discussion intact.

[gendao]

I thought more people knew that the pay gap was a myth by now, but I guess it's taking it's taking a long time to enter the mainstream consciousness.

It confuses me too? How do women still have a "loooongg way to go" paywise...when they now get paid more than men before they have children around 30 and start spending more family time at home (thus reducing their job hours/experience)?

 

 

Well, the irony is that deep down, a lot of feminists are actually resorting to "patriarchal" sexual dimorphic dynamics of playing the victimized (weak) damsels-in-distress to demand heroic (strong) males to save them.

And when "empowerment" is found via victimization...then one must remain a victim...which is...*rimshot* what they were trying to avoid in the first place..

Whereas true empowerment would be relinquishing one's victim role and thus the need to even be saved (loved)?

Edited June 27, 2014 by vortex

[dawei]

No, it was an agenda to get the moderators to do something about it. Why didn't the moderators do something about it right away? The excuse seems to be that nobody reported anything during that whole week that thread was allowed to stay in the general discussion area, but hey you know what, don't the moderators at least take a look at the thread titles every day?

I'm pretty darn sure you all do.

 

The title of the thread gave its potential for trouble away immediately.

 

I don't wants thread to go to the pit, unless they are obvious trouble like that one.

But that wasn't even what I asked for. What I asked for was for the thread to be

locked immediately, and for an announcement to be made.

 

An announcement was made, but the thread locking happened eventually.

 

Once there are more than say.... I don't know... 3 reports... maybe 5 reports.... but once it is up to 20 reports, then it has become where staff, who may not be on for a day or two to discuss it, spend more time on seeing the reported posts.

 

No. We don't take a look at EVERY Report Title... every thread... every post... every day.

 

If someone truly believes that, then they need to become staff and see what we we have to spend most of our time dealing with. 20 reports doesn't help though. That's the moral of the story.

 

It did not belong in General anyways... it was bound for somewhere else at some point... posting history is a good indication of where threads will go and end up.

 

I think what you did was the best option; start you own thread.

[Aetherous]

 

When and where did this happen?

 

 

*Tyler did some facepalm thing in response to my inquiry which didn't copy over when using the quote feature*

 

I personally think it's just a common reaction of most people (men and women) to feel like women are being insulted in a discussion that involves women...when in fact, everyone here has been generally courteous. But if myself and others missed a woman being insulted here at this forum, please point it out so that we can end that kind of thing. No one should feel insulted by others here.

[zanshin]

 

Tip to remember:

Don’t respond to this sort of thing

Edited April 19, 2020 by zanshin

[Sloppy Zhang]

I wasn't insulted, but I can feel the "young yin beta" male anger out there and I would like to understand better.

 

Young yin beta males are marginalized by society.

 

We can run around and play the blame game as we have been doing...

 

"Women aren't sexually attracted to yin beta males, so they reject them"

"Society tells women they should be attracted to masculine alpha males, don't blame women"

"Us women just want men with confidence"

 

Blah blah blah....

 

But the fact is, young yin beta males are marginalized, so they are frustrated and sad and lonely and misunderstood.

 

Similar, you might say, to young women who don't fit the "feminine mold".

Edited June 27, 2014 by Sloppy Zhang

[zanshin]

what we have here is failure to communicate

Edited April 19, 2020 by zanshin

[Sloppy Zhang]

Okay, instead of blame game, what can men do? And what can women do to help them while maintaining integrity? I know the pua angle has been overdone here and as long as it's not treating women like notches on the bed post, I can see how the social skills can be positive. Also, I think the undertones of military society are detrimental to men, dads seem to almost panic and tell their sons to "man up" if they cry- no blame I've seen the moms do too- what's up with that, they are little kids? What advice and support from a young guy in modern society's perspective should I give my sons as they come of age.

 

So, this is completely honest from me, personally.

 

From my first post in this thread, I was raised in a good family by a feminist mother, really into spirituality and overall want to see the world filled with good people...

 

But not everyone is self aware. "How can women help while maintaining their integrity." What do you mean by this last part? The fact is, a lot of the women this young beta males are surrounded by are not spiritually aware, and even socially aware. I'm talking ages 13-25 year old girls (and even up to 30).

 

The best way for these guys to become happy? Learn how to play the game.

 

1) Play sports, work out, do things that involve and increase your testosterone. Find friends that pump you up, expand your social circle

2) Expand your social circle more- network from your physical activities, I know a lot of 20's guys who play recreational sports and then go out for beers after. This gets you out and puts you in a situation where you are socially dominant (which people like)

3) Expand your social circle to include attractive women- because that's really what guys want, they want attention from women. Women like guys who are socially dominant/savvy, and who are out there socially. Even if you don't do anything else, getting to this point will get you successfully

4) Learn game- and by "game" I don't mean "how to lie to women," but how to flirt, how to push her buttons, how to push/pull, what makes a good date, how to behave around other men/women

 

If you're in high school, try out for a high school sport. If you're in college, join an intramural team. if you're out of college, join a casual community sports team.

 

Is this an "enlightened" way to go about it? I don't know, but it's a REALIST way of going about it.

 

In my opinion, all of the guys just saying "be yourself and women will be attractive to you" are people already did the above in their lives, consciously or not. They already had an invigorating hobby which boosts physical confidence, they had a wide social circle, they were around women (if you don't hang out around women you don't learn how to behave around women), and they dated women (so learned how how to date and to "game" naturally).

 

And all of the women saying "just be yourself and women will be attracted to you" are really just being attracted to the usual traits listed above, and oblivious to the yin beta male.

 

Just sayin.

[tyler zambori]

Once there are more than say.... I don't know... 3 reports... maybe 5 reports.... but once it is up to 20 reports, then it has become where staff, who may not be on for a day or two to discuss it, spend more time on seeing the reported posts.

 

No. We don't take a look at EVERY Report Title... every thread... every post... every day.

 

If someone truly believes that, then they need to become staff and see what we we have to spend most of our time dealing with. 20 reports doesn't help though. That's the moral of the story.

 

It did not belong in General anyways... it was bound for somewhere else at some point... posting history is a good indication of where threads will go and end up.

 

I think what you did was the best option; start you own thread.

 

Yes, I agree, but I wasn't talking about reading report titles. I was talking about just reading the titles of new

threads.

 

Surely the thread title "are men generally more conscious than women" gives a clue that it's going to be

offensive to women in the forum. The question itself is offensive.

 

I know the mods have a lot of shit to deal with; I sure wouldn't want to do it.

 

I think the women on the forum would just like the mods to be a little more cognizant

of discrimination.

[tyler zambori]

I personally think it's just a common reaction of most people (men and women) to feel like women are being insulted in a discussion that involves women...when in fact, everyone here has been generally courteous. But if myself and others missed a woman being insulted here at this forum, please point it out so that we can end that kind of thing. No one should feel insulted by others here.

 

Aetherous, you yourself are one of the people who said something insulting to women. I just posted what it was.

 

That's why I posted the facepalm picture when you asked who did such a thing, and where.

Edited June 27, 2014 by tyler zambori

[dawei]

Surely the thread title "are men generally more conscious than women" gives a clue that it's going to be

offensive to women in the forum. The question itself is offensive.

 

I took it as as clueless comment which was going to get a member load of comments to correct it. I think that was true for the most part; most disagreed.

 

Whether it is offensive as a title or question may be more subjective... I don't think every women here took it as offensive although it seemed to put some on the offensive... which is not a bad thing... unless their offensiveness becomes offensive.

[HoldorFold]

And all of the women saying "just be yourself and women will be attracted to you" are really just being attracted to the usual traits listed above, and oblivious to the yin beta male.

 

... Is this an "enlightened" way to go about it? I don't know, but it's a REALIST way of going about it.

 

I mentioned in a previous pitted thread how estrogen seeks these testosterone characteristics in men and it was showcased as one of the offensive quotes . You have to be careful how you word these things, but you put it in a more digestible way than I did which is good.

[Aetherous]

Aetherous, you yourself are one of the people who said something insulting to women. I just posted what it was.

 

That's why I posted the facepalm picture when you asked who did such a thing, and where.

 

You misunderstood my post and took only one sentence out of the context of the post. Later on in that thread, I explained that sentence more to make it totally clear that it was not an insult to women. If you continue to assert that it was insulting, I'll be willing to copy and paste the links to those 2 posts here.

 

I did not insult you, Tyler, nor did I intend to at any time.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I mentioned in a previous pitted thread how estrogen seeks these testosterone characteristics in men and it was showcased as one of the offensive quotes . You have to be careful how you word these things, but you put it in a more digestible way than I did which is good.

 

"That's not true, there are exceptions, I really like quite guys who aren't typical alpha male assholes."

 

"I'm not into the whole Barbie girl thing. I like weird quiet girls."

 

Edited June 27, 2014 by Sloppy Zhang

[Nungali]

 

Why does the term "feminism" alienate men? What if I called it " anti-sexist activism"? Would that alienate men?

If not, why not?

 

Hmm...."you smell like a guy" etc. does not carry with it the message that men are inferior to anything

or anybody.

 

Male stinkiness? Just take a shower. Neither does "You drive like a man" (I never heard that one?).

 

No? <swerves car while juggling a beer and a cigarette ... abuses motorist that I nearly ran into ... pulls out handgun and unloads a few over their bonnet >

 

" You drive like a woman" does carry that message - that women are worse drivers than men.

 

Yeah, I'd like talk about that video that Zanshin posted.

 

Here's the brief conversation between the female interviewer and the young boy:

 

 

 

The implication here is that he had told his sister that she "runs/throws/hits

like a girl." Or etc.

 

So what does he think, that it's ok to insult some non-existant archetypal

girls? To him, his sister is a real person he cares about, and therefore

is not included in the group of non-existant archetypal girls.

 

What is he not conscious of, is that now his sister has something to fight

against, which he doesn't. Now she has to fight for her self-esteem.

What he is not conscious of, is that insulting the non-existing archetypal

girls DOES hurt his sister, the real person that he cares about.

 

YES! Like when someone complains about 'black' or 'Abbos' and then realises and turns to black friend ... "I didnt mean you of course."

 

Or when a person I know suggested, at the beginning of the Iraq invasion by the west; "They should just drop nukes on all of them !" Out of frustration , I lied to them; " Hey! I have relatives in Iraq."

 

Response ? "OH ... I .... I didnt mean them."

 

Me; " OH ??? There is some type of new nuclear weapon that selectively only kills those that are NOT related to me ? "

 

- The same comment might apply here.

 

So please, everyone, when I make dumb sexist comments and post bad 'jokes' ... I dont mean to offend you ... just the non-existent 'set' that you belong to ......

[Nungali]

Also, I reported many of the offensive posts, and shortly after that the thread went to the pit.

 

I have never really got that concept. On another forum I use and post on an offensive comment is removed from the thread and the good posts strand and the thread remains in place and open. Constant bad offensive posts or a continued circular argument might close a thread . But to close a thread and still leave the offensive posts up is like NOT cleaning off the bathroom wall after a 'big friday night'.

 

I have no idea why TB thinks this pitting thing works ?.

[Nungali]

Men are 80% more likely to be homeless than women, 2/3 homicides are male victims and men are much more likely to be victims of robbery, assaults and general violence.

 

Well, I could say that men are more than 80% likely as those that foreclose on loans and evict people, 2/3/ of homicides of men ( or much more) are by men murderers and men are more likely to be robbed (because they get more money by another male.

 

The above issues are generally seen as humanist issues though. I wonder if there would be benefit in turning them into 'masculinist' issues?

 

I'd be curious how a thread titled "What can masculinism do for women?" would perform on this forum. I'm not starting it though...

 

Why not ??? Too scared ?

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Split and pit has always been my favorite option, then the good convo and posts still stay in the thread.

 

They still do when outlaw posts are removed too

[Nungali]

As long as everyone could discuss it without insulting each other or the genders, I think that would be a good thread. I think society screws men over (but in different ways) just as much as it screws women over.

 

Society (in its aberrant from) is designed to screw over the individual ... just like the church and state is.

 

Any group seeking liberation or fairness is going to be seen as a threat to those that sit on top of others... anything from women to Falun Gong.

 

Just curious here .... if the people (men and women) are straw dogs .... how does Taoism address sexual inequality, especially ifconsidering Taoist concepts of sex difference and straw dogs together ?

 

Now, in the art of screwing people over, one must focus on those specific differences and apply the screws in the most effect manner ( "but in different ways"), this applies to children as well ... also the elderly and sick.