If you practice sitting meditation, which position do you use?

[SonOfTheGods]

Some great info on this thread.

 

Unfortunately, some non-deliberate "false rumor" info, too

 

So caveat emptor, try/practice yourself, and all that jazz

 

 

P.S. - To those doing Seiza, breathe through your knees

Edited June 10, 2014 by SonOfTheGods

[Brian]

Some of my deepest meditation has been on a barstool, contemplating a pint.

[soaring crane]

my little milking stool looks something like this:

 

 

It allows for total freedom of position - knees more outward or closer, etc.

 

I have trouble accepting the idea that full-lotus increases the intensity of connection to Earth-Qi. The Earth is huge, the energy-field immense, and the few centimeters represented by the distance created between Huiyin and the Earth when we stand up is less than negligible, it's a nano-distance.

 

On the other hand, the position folds the legs together, effectively reducing the flow through them compared to standing.

 

I think the Yongchuan-pointed-heavenward is the key to full-lotus, moreso than the Huiyin on the floor. And for me, that's a way of disconnecting from the Earth, ie a Buddhist practice to overcome Earthly attachments.

 

There's a tremendous amount of information regarding people's experiences in full-lotus. And extremely little about long-term standing, in comparison. I suspect that if people spent as much time standing still as they do sitting, they would discover how incredibly powerful the practice is. But, it seems so... mundane, I guess.

 

And, standing is something that comes natural to humans. We're the only bipedal mammal and the only mammal that can stand like that (or walk or run, for that matter). Our bodies are uniquely and specifically built to do it (along with kneeling and, especially, squatting), and not built to sit on the tailbone with the legs all pretzeled up. The soles of the feet are the natural conduit for Earth power. And again, uniquely human, and perfect for the job.

 

So, in my view, full-lotus is kind of 'super-natural', something that has to be trained over many, many years to do correctly, and a way of escaping from (or transcending, of you prefer) that which makes you human; while standing is just natural (think, Dao), and is a way of expressing and emphasizing, celebrating our true nature.

 

Guess which one I prefer

Edited June 10, 2014 by soaring crane

[Brian]

That's really nice, soaring crane!

[thelerner]

Thirty minutes of seiza sitting is pretty good. I find after the intense pain, comes numbness- then pain when I get up. Unless you're brought up doing it, I think it'll always be uncomfortable, especially for Western sized people. I find putting a folded blanket between my butt and thighs help, even better when some of its half folded under to cushion my knees. Often when it gets painful I'll switch to half lotus.

[soaring crane]

Thirty minutes of seiza sitting is pretty good.

 

Hi TL - I'd be interested in your impressions after thirty minutes of 'Standing in the stream'

 

http://zhanzhuangsydney.com/?page_id=18

[Yascra]

So, in my view, full-lotus is kind of 'super-natural', something that has to be trained over many, many years to do correctly, and a way of escaping from (or transcending, of you prefer) that which makes you human; while standing is just natural (think, Dao), and is a way of expressing and emphasizing, celebrating our true nature.

 

Guess which one I prefer

 

Hmm, don't know. Maybe I'm not doing it correct, for I didn't train for years or something. I just like it because it allows to sit relatively long in a stable position, so if you want to keep your body in one position without moving I simply find it to be the most relaxing posture to do so. Might be different for other people, though.

[soaring crane]

Hmm, don't know. Maybe I'm not doing it correct, for I didn't train for years or something. I just like it because it allows to sit relatively long in a stable position, so if you want to keep your body in one position without moving I simply find it to be the most relaxing posture to do so. Might be different for other people, though.

 

well, now, that's a different motivation :-)

[ChiForce]

Half lotus but my favorite is the sleeping position or lying down or meditating in my sleep.

[Vitalii]

I have trouble accepting the idea that full-lotus increases the intensity of connection to Earth-Qi. The Earth is huge, the energy-field immense, and the few centimeters represented by the distance created between Huiyin and the Earth when we stand up is less than negligible, it's a nano-distance.

 

On the other hand, the position folds the legs together, effectively reducing the flow through them compared to standing.

 

I think the Yongchuan-pointed-heavenward is the key to full-lotus, moreso than the Huiyin on the floor. And for me, that's a way of disconnecting from the Earth, ie a Buddhist practice to overcome Earthly attachments.

 

Precisely because the legs crossed and feet are turned to Heaven then Qi of Earth will move directly into your Central channel through Huiyin point. It is a very important moment for alchemy. If you stand then more Qi of Earth will move through your legs into the body, but not into Central channel. When Qi of Earth moves through your legs then Huiyin point can not to be activated well enough.

 

There's a tremendous amount of information regarding people's experiences in full-lotus. And extremely little about long-term standing, in comparison. I suspect that if people spent as much time standing still as they do sitting, they would discover how incredibly powerful the practice is. But, it seems so... mundane, I guess.

 

I have been practicing 2 hours of Zhan zhuang every day many years and I have many years of experience in it.

I can say that the sitting meditation is deeper and the original nature can be awakened more easily.

 

So, full-lotus is kind of 'super-natural', something that has to be trained over many, many years to do correctly, and a way of escaping from that which makes you human;

 

it is true. We also need to understand that one of the main goals of Daoism is to transcend the human form and become a holy Immortal.

 

while standing is just natural (think, Dao), and is a way of expressing and emphasizing our true nature.

 

it is a way of expressing and emphasizing our human nature but not true divine nature. Thats why in Daoism and Buddhism we can see that enlightened masters are portrayed sitting in a lotus position.

 

And of course the position in practice will depend on your goals

Edited June 10, 2014 by Vitalii

[soaring crane]

 

And of course the position in practice will depend on your goals

 

precisely!

 

Also - look into pre-Buddhist Chinese depictions of practices. Is there any full-lotus to be found? The discussion has come up before but I don't think it's clear.

[Vitalii]

Also - look into pre-Buddhist Chinese depictions of practices. Is there any full-lotus to be found? The discussion has come up before but I don't think it's clear.

 

99% of all existing Daoist texts. which describe the practice of alchemy were written after the arrival of Buddhism in China.

Texts that were written before this period, describe general concepts, but do not have concrete description of practices.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Vitalii

[Kajenx]

I do a lot of standing these day. Standing at the window watching the wind in the grass...

 

It's a different kind of meditation, I think. No special effects, just the senses doing their thing.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Kajenx

[Yascra]

Precisely because the legs crossed and feet are turned to Heaven then Qi of Earth will move directly into your Central channel through Huiyin point. It is a very important moment for alchemy. If you stand then more Qi of Earth will move through your legs into the body, but not into Central channel. When Qi of Earth moves through your legs then Huiyin point can not to be activated well enough.

 

Hm, don't know, but I do definitely feel energy movements in my legs in full lotus. Can't tell definitely whether that's wind or real Chi, but there's definitely happening something. oO

[Vitalii]

Hm, don't know, but I do definitely feel energy movements in my legs in full lotus. Can't tell definitely whether that's wind or real Chi, but there's definitely happening something. oO

 

You are right, when you sit in the lotus position, then there is inner work/circulation of Qi in your legs, which comes from Qi in your dantian.

[Yascra]

You are right, when you sit in the lotus position, then there is inner work/circulation of Qi in your legs, which comes from Qi in your dantian.

 

Ho do you know this Qi comes from my dantian?

[Vitalii]

Ho do you know this Qi comes from my dantian?

 

I described the general situation during practice in the lotus position.

Of course, if you do some kind of special practices you can have other circulation of Qi

[Yascra]

I described the general situation during practice in the lotus position.

Of course, if you do some kind of special practices you can have other circulation of Qi

 

Oh, I didn't mean to contradict, just being interested.

 

I'm not doing special practices, just some visualisations occasionally, but most of the time emptiness-meditation, or simply exercising "letting go".

 

Today I noticed that a visualisation of rain washing you from the head downwards resulted in an energy-flow of the same direction (from head downwards), but usually that's not so much the case for me.

 

[Spotless]

Their are some obvious advantages to a full lotus but overall a straight back in a comfortable posture is "best". As it has been pointed out - each posture has its features and benefits - but in all the straight spine is paramount (blood clots and purple legs do nothing for ones practice).

 

Moving from a full lotus to a half lotus or a chair for reasons of discomfort and or circulation concerns is something that should be done nearly as soon as it becomes a distraction. As one becomes able to sit in a full lotus, the time can be increased accordingly.

 

I used to do pretty much full lotus only - now it does not matter which vertical position I am in as routing energy can be done easily.

I still find horizontal to be difficult for meditation.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Spotless

[joeblast]

 

I can practice full lotus very very comfortably for hours in a row, but I think it is a bad posture because it straightens the spine with the muscles of the back, neglecting the abs. Thus creating imbalances.

The big-belly syndrome common for meditators (especially dan-tien people).

full lotus may be a central channel training, but its not "core training!" get that in elsewhere its a great posture and is superlatively stable even completely relaxed - and that's a key right there, being perfectly relaxed.

 

 

I have trouble accepting the idea that full-lotus increases the intensity of connection to Earth-Qi. The Earth is huge, the energy-field immense, and the few centimeters represented by the distance created between Huiyin and the Earth when we stand up is less than negligible, it's a nano-distance.

 

On the other hand, the position folds the legs together, effectively reducing the flow through them compared to standing.

 

I think the Yongchuan-pointed-heavenward is the key to full-lotus, moreso than the Huiyin on the floor. And for me, that's a way of disconnecting from the Earth, ie a Buddhist practice to overcome Earthly attachments.

 

There's a tremendous amount of information regarding people's experiences in full-lotus. And extremely little about long-term standing, in comparison. I suspect that if people spent as much time standing still as they do sitting, they would discover how incredibly powerful the practice is. But, it seems so... mundane, I guess.

 

And, standing is something that comes natural to humans. We're the only bipedal mammal and the only mammal that can stand like that (or walk or run, for that matter). Our bodies are uniquely and specifically built to do it (along with kneeling and, especially, squatting), and not built to sit on the tailbone with the legs all pretzeled up. The soles of the feet are the natural conduit for Earth power. And again, uniquely human, and perfect for the job.

 

So, in my view, full-lotus is kind of 'super-natural', something that has to be trained over many, many years to do correctly, and a way of escaping from (or transcending, of you prefer) that which makes you human; while standing is just natural (think, Dao), and is a way of expressing and emphasizing, celebrating our true nature.

 

Guess which one I prefer

Having only begun training to get into full lotus in my early 30s...

it took me roughly 6-10 months to be able to do it decently. I'd have done more if I didnt keep finding ways to injure myself...always stupid things...

 

The key to full lotus is what the psoas muscles are doing! Superiorly, attaches to the transverse processes and lateral surfaces of the lumbar vertebrae (t12 also)....and inferiorly, attaches to the lesser trochanter of the femur:

 

 

So when you rotate your leg into the lotus position, what you are doing is applying tension to the psoas and that's what pulls the lumbar spine straight up. That is what makes the position so stable.

 

Energetically speaking, this extra bit of tension on the psoas muscle is actually helpful, it is why I found reverse breathing to be a better breath strategy while in the posture. In a way it feels like it makes it easier to focus on the dantien. Whether normal or reverse breathing, the descent of the diaphragm is important - but the extra little bit of restriction placed on movement by the psoas tension almost makes it easier, at least for me, to use that tension along with the diaphragm's descent and lifting of the perineum, focusing the energetic culminations of the movement at the dantien.

 

Quick rough illustration I did a little while ago on that concept of the energetic culminations of the structures,

 

 

 

 

so picture the all yang phase inhale, all energy generated by the movement vectored to the dantien.

 

In other postures, the freedom of the psoas is partly what leads to people doing reverse breathing wrong, and the entire reason I say to forget about the front of the abdomen when learning reverse breathing - the internal mechanics are more fundamental, and if you dont have them down right then you're just going to wind up putting undue pressure on the epigastrum if you cant make the internal descent time well with the lifting of perineum and compression at the front.

 

So hint hint, it is partly this physical restriction and tension that contributes to the efficacy of lotus. To be clear, its not a physical/energetic tension where there is energetic input to hold muscles where they are - this is a mechanically (posturally) induced tension caused by the rotation of the femur, shortening up the available psoas-slack! A guitar string dont make much noise when its too slack, but there is an optimal tension for it to resonate most strongly.

 

Yes, I am saying this makes the psoas...by extension, breath....by extension the culmination of energetics...better contribute to the energetics, more constructively amplified. So you not only have this central pillar formed, covering the lumbosacral spine up into the thoracic, but dont forget that the iliacus also connects into the lesser trochanter of the femur (fibers run less distally than the psoas), forming a nice little basin that is laterally contiguous with the pelvic wings but then deep center is where the energetic culmination from the huiyin comes up.

 

Another note on the attachment point at the lesser trochanter, its right on the kd sinew channel-path...so, when making your conceptual connections... like yq pointing to heaven and such.

 

and if you want to make a further....ah, yeah I guess the word alchemical is usable, but I'm sure there's a more appropriate word....so, a further alchemical connection, here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if you want to bring all this into a standing concept,

 

To increase grounding ability, relax the psoas, just like you do in full lotus But of course there is this whole matter of all that slack and range of movement you have, right....but still important to relax the psoas!

 

You will find the solution to that somewhere in the inguinal notch. To fully relax the psoas while standing, then you need balance! If you're leaning forward or back, side to side, then you are necessarily using the psoas muscle. You will have to adjust the pitch angle of the pelvis to do this. When the lumbosacral junction is radially parallel to the earth (i.e. parallel to the line drawn outward from the center of the earth)....put a finger or two on the inguinal notch - when the psoas is relaxed you will be able to feel it relaxed there. Now adjust the pitch of the pelvis again, and you should feel the psoas muscle spring into action. Once identified, this becomes much easier to do....but there is a good key right there to make standing meditation more efficient, relax that psoas! (its going to feel weird and unnatural at first, trust me, you are VERY used to using your psoas just to stand.)

Edited June 11, 2014 by joeblast

[SonOfTheGods]

If you want extreme results (not everyone does)- NeiGong, NeiDan- the quest for the JinDan/Golden Elixir= start working on your Full Lotus.

 

Everyone else, who is content with ChiKung for health, stress removal, etc- if Full Lotus is hurting you, forget it then.

 

Doing the Pharoah/sitting in a chair, will work equally well for you.

[multiarms]

i prefer standing or sitting on a chair with the feet on the floor. I have done half and full lotus in the past, but I find that those postures tend to raise too much energy upwards (for me). So I keep the bubbling wells pointing down in to the earth, crown pointing UP, and then I can modulate the flow of energy a bit based on the position of my hands (palms up, palms down, or one up/one down).

[Guest FredZ]

I think it very much depends on what it is that I am doing. Sometimes I meditate in a semi-lying down position, sometimes I meditate in half lotus, and other times I use full lotus.

[Guest FredZ]

Warning with full lotus though. if you aren't yet a master at it, you can injure your knees if you pull yourself into it without proper stretching first. It can give ya' a limp for a few days. Ouch!

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I wouldn't even try the semi-lotus or full lotus. I can only do the non-lotus position (simple cross-legged position).

.

Edited June 13, 2014 by ChiDragon