What is wisdom in Dzogchen ?

[Paul]

I hope not.

 

I'm just making fun of you and Simple_Jack, so I hope that everyone's laughing as much as I am.

 

Yay!

[Paul]

Although after reading that, I can see that you're you're entirely competent in making fun of yourself and that you need no further help from me.

 

I suppose if respecting my teacher is funny, then laugh on... But consider, wisdom in Dzogchen depends on a teacher.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Paul

[goldisheavy]

I don't have a view to outline.

And maybe you even believe that you don't.

 

I can tell you what my Dzogchen teachers say.

OK, in addition to telling me what your teachers say, can you tell me why they say whatever they say?

 

First thing they say is it breaks samaya to discuss Dzogchen with people who are not earnestly devoted to the teacher.

Who is the teacher?

 

A single word of Dzogchen teaching is enough to attain enlightenment.

Under the right conditions anything is enough, do you agree?

 

So each word is precious. Those who want to denigrate, analyze and be skeptical of Dzogchen have no business advising what these terms mean to an OP who appeared sincerely interested in what the terms are.

Say what? What an ad-hoc mix of unrelated qualities. Do you know that many Dzogchen tantras are in and of themselves forms of analysis?

Edited July 9, 2014 by goldisheavy

[gatito]

I suppose if respecting my teacher is funny, then laugh on... But consider, wisdom in Dzogchen depends on a teacher.

 

Hmmm.....given the evidence, either s/he's incompetent or you're unteachable.

[Paul]

And maybe you even believe that you don't.

 

You don't know what I believe.

 

 

 

OK, in addition to telling me what your teachers say, can you tell me why they say whatever they say?

 

I sure can.

 

 

 

Who is the teacher?

 

I know who my teachers are.

 

 

Under the right conditions anything is enough, do you agree?

 

What's enough for you might not be for me.

 

 

Say what? What an ad-hoc mix of unrelated qualities. Do you know that many Dzogchen tantras are in and of themselves forms of analysis?

 

So?

[Paul]

Hmmm.....given the evidence, either s/he's incompetent or you're unteachable.

 

It's none of your business. You reject the teacher in favor of yourself, so you're automatically out.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Paul

[goldisheavy]

You don't know what I believe.

Hence the word "maybe" in what I said.

I sure can.

Please do, if you don't mind.

I know who my teachers are.

Who?

What's enough for you might not be for me.

OK, so for you one word of Dzogchen may not be enough, is what you're saying?

So?

So you are wrong when you imply Dzogchen frowns on analysis. In fact more than one Dzogchen tantra invites analysis from their readers.

[Simple_Jack]

Gatito's going to continue to tell everyone they "don't get it" while proving why he's the ultimate Vedantin.

 

Bump.

[C T]

Its quite fun to realize that when i walk into a forest, i see trees of all shapes and sizes, some are straight, some are bent, some tall, some short, they all have different colours and different ways of trying to get light, some are just born, and some are in the process of dying... strangely enough, i don't discriminate them in this way when i am in the presence of trees.

 

I think it would be kookoo to start discriminating each tree when i am in the forest. There is simply an allowing for the trees to be the way their nature intends them to be. And yet, i found it hard to maintain the same gaze when in the presence of humans.

 

So now i try to view humans with the same non-discriminative attitude as i view the trees in the forest, appreciating their essence both, and to understand that its only my conditioned mind that sets me up for a fall each time i see others in a conflictive sort of way. I realize now the source of the conflict, and when i am attentive of this, there is clarity.

 

Of course i still have a long way to go -- I still react to things people say in very negative ways at times, but boy, i am so thankful this here is such a wonderful ground to enhance my practice.

 

So, in summary, there are trees of all shapes and sizes, but i dont go thinking that certain shapes and certain sizes are more right than others. That would be utterly bizarre if it were to happen. How come its not as bewildering when it comes to viewing humans? Odd, but its getting less so each time i come upon threads like these. I know this may get across as arrogant and even patronizing to one or two people here, but actually, im not intending it this way. Its got nothing whatsoever to do with any of you, unless you allow these words to affect you badly. Otherwise, please just see this as my feeble attempt of trying to be mindful of catching any unaware moments when they do occur.

[Paul]

Hence the word "maybe" in what I said.

 

Please do, if you don't mind.

 

I mind.

 

 

Who?

 

Gelong Yeshe Rinpoche, Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche, HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche, HH Taklung Matul Rinpoche, Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen Rinpoche, HH Tenzin Gyatso, Traga Lama, Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche

 

 

OK, so for you one word of Dzogchen may not be enough, is what you're saying?

 

I'm saying you might think going without a teacher might be enough, but for me that would be woefully deficient.

 

 

So you are wrong when you imply Dzogchen frowns on analysis. In fact more than one Dzogchen tantra invites analysis from their readers.

 

I never said Dzogchen teaching frowns on analysis. I said Dzogchen is beyond explanations. The teaching is not Dzogchen.

[Paul]

Bump.

Vedantins need gurus too

[ralis]

I don't have a view to outline. I can tell you what my Dzogchen teachers say. First thing they say is it breaks samaya to discuss Dzogchen with people who are not earnestly devoted to the teacher. A single word of Dzogchen teaching is enough to attain enlightenment. So each word is precious. Those who want to denigrate, analyze and be skeptical of Dzogchen have no business advising what these terms mean to an OP who appeared sincerely interested in what the terms are. I mentioned clarity-emptiness is wisdom in Dzogchen. To which, some joker said "emptiness" is trite. To which I replied, that's bullshit. Now here we are.

 

You have misconstrued what I said. To repeat; the overuse of the term 'emptiness' makes that term trite.

[Paul]

You have misconstrued what I said. To repeat; the overuse of the term 'emptiness' makes that term trite.

 

The term appears millions of times in the sutras. It's fresh to me.

[asunthatneversets]

The term appears millions of times in the sutras. It's fresh to me.

 

Quite often in the tantras too... it's as fresh as fresh can be.

[ralis]

That's pretty stupid since I don't give a rodent's anus about their ideas. I don't have a need convert people. If you come to my center to deride what we are talking about, you'd get kicked out. That's the appropriate response here too.

 

You have a center? Anyone who wishes to discuss and not absolutely agree with your perspective is thrown out?

[Paul]

You have a center? Anyone who wishes to discuss and not absolutely agree with your perspective is thrown out?

 

Coming with questions and doubts is one thing, calling Buddha trite will be taken as disrespectful. So you would find out no one has any time or anything to say to you.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Paul

[goldisheavy]

Gelong Yeshe Rinpoche, Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche, HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche, HH Taklung Matul Rinpoche, Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen Rinpoche, HH Tenzin Gyatso, Traga Lama, Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche

 

Why are these people your teachers?

 

 

I'm saying you might think going without a teacher might be enough, but for me that would be woefully deficient.

 

Do you think there is a substantial difference between what you are doing and what I am doing? Or is the difference merely ornamental?

 

 

I never said Dzogchen teaching frowns on analysis. I said Dzogchen is beyond explanations. The teaching is not Dzogchen.

 

Then "having a teacher" amounts to lip service.

Edited July 9, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Paul]

Why are these people your teachers?

 

Because they taught me.

 

 

Do you think there is a substnatial difference between what you are doing and what I am doing? Or is the difference merely ornamental?

 

I think I'm following buddhas. I don't care what you are doing.

 

 

Then "having a teacher" amounts to lip service.

 

You say this because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Paul

[ralis]

Coming with questions and doubts is one thing, calling Buddha trite will be taken as disrespectful. So you would find out no one has any time or anything to say to you.

 

Show me where I called the Buddha trite? You will not find it in any post of mine. You seem unreasonably defensive.

[goldisheavy]

Because they taught me.

 

I am also teaching you. Am I your teacher? If you answer "no" then teaching is not a sufficient condition and your answer is not a good one.

 

 

I think I'm following buddhas. I don't care what you are doing.

 

I asked if you thought the difference between what you are doing and what I am doing is substantial or ornamental. I prefer an honest and straightforward "no comment" to how you avoided the question.

 

 

You say this because you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Then please reconcile the idea that Dzogchen cannot be taught with your idea of having a whole list of Dzogchen teachers.

[Paul]

Show me where I called the Buddha trite? You will not find it in any post of mine. You seem unreasonably defensive.

The Buddha is emptiness and emptiness is the Buddha.

[Paul]

I am also teaching you. Am I your teacher? If you answer "no" then teaching is not a sufficient condition and your answer is not a good one.

 

Here's the key difference. I requested teachings from these realized beings and they gave me transmissions of the lineage. You are a joker on the internet.

 

I asked if you thought the difference between what you are doing and what I am doing is substantial or ornamental. I prefer an honest and straightforward "no comment" to how you avoided the question.

 

I don't care.

 

Then please reconcile the idea that Dzogchen cannot be taught with your idea of having a whole list of Dzogchen teachers.

 

I don't have to. If you want to understand that we can meet and discuss in person or you can follow a transmission by a Dzogchen teacher.

[goldisheavy]

Here's the key difference. I requested teachings from these realized beings and they gave me transmissions of the lineage. You are a joker on the internet.

 

Very good! So how were you able to determine that your teachers are realized beings, whereas I am a joker on the internet?

 

Never mind that one can be a realized being and a joker on the internet at the same time.

 

 

I don't care.

 

I don't have to. If you want to understand that we can meet and discuss in person or you can follow a transmission by a Dzogchen teacher.

 

Quit being defensive. What you are protecting is not worth protecting, trust me. Just answer my questions.

Edited July 9, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Paul]

Very good! So how were you able to determine that your teachers are realized beings, whereas I am a joker on the internet?

 

Because in their presence life is bliss and you are a joker on the internet.

 

Never mind that one can be a realized being and a joker on the internet at the same time.

 

Sure, why not?

 

Quit being defensive. What you are protecting is not worth protecting, trust me. Just answer my questions.

 

I don't trust you in any way, shape or form.

[ralis]

The Buddha is emptiness and emptiness is the Buddha.

 

This is where I disagree with religious fundamentalists such as yourself. By deferring to the Buddha you have an ironclad defense with no weak points in your mind only.

 

The beginning of wisdom is admitting that there is much you don't know or understand.

 

I am intellectually ruthless with my concepts and belief systems. Do you question yourself? For most that creates much fear!

Edited July 9, 2014 by ralis