What is wisdom in Dzogchen ?

[Paul]

This is where I disagree with religious fundamentalists such as yourself. By deferring to the Buddha you have an ironclad defense with no weak points in your mind only.

 

The beginning of wisdom is admitting that there is much you don't know or understand.

 

I am intellectually ruthless with my concepts and belief systems. Do you question yourself? For most that creates much fear!

 

Fear the beard.

[goldisheavy]

Because in their presence life is bliss and you are a joker on the internet.

 

Interesting. So you consider people you are exceptionally comfortable with to be your teachers? Am I right?

 

 

Sure, why not?

 

Oh, cool. Because it wasn't obvious from how you first put it.

 

 

I don't trust you in any way, shape or form.

 

And this is where you are wrong. You trust my appearance on some level because you respond to it. You may not trust some of the implications I would like you to trust, but to say you don't trust me in any way, shape or form is definitely wrong. You respond to my basic energy. So you do trust me. This is one of my many teachings for you, my son.

[Paul]

Interesting. So you consider people you are exceptionally comfortable with to be your teachers? Am I right?

 

Nope.

 

And this is where you are wrong. You trust my appearance on some level because you respond to it. You may not trust some of the implications I would like you to trust, but to say you don't trust me in any way, shape or form is definitely wrong. You respond to my basic energy. So you do trust me. This is one of my many teachings for you, my son.

 

Whatever keeps you warm at night.

[ralis]

Fear the beard.

 

What? Are you capable of having a real honest discussion?

[ralis]

Here's the key difference. I requested teachings from these realized beings and they gave me transmissions of the lineage. You are a joker on the internet.

 

You do realize that the 'joker' is an ancient archetype? Perhaps not?

[goldisheavy]

 

Interesting. So you consider people you are exceptionally comfortable with to be your teachers? Am I right?

 

Nope.

 

In that case your previous answer "Because in their presence life is bliss" is inadequate. So can you please answer my question adequately? Why do you consider the long list of the people you mentioned to be your teachers?

[Paul]

What? Are you capable of having a real honest discussion?

 

I won't discuss Dzogchen with people who only want to be ruthless toward it. Is there anything else you want to discuss? Emptiness is the opposite of fundamentalism, BTW. It is the destruction of concepts...

[Paul]

You do realize that the 'joker' is an ancient archetype? Perhaps not?

 

Sure, The Fool card.

[ralis]

Coming with questions and doubts is one thing, calling Buddha trite will be taken as disrespectful. So you would find out no one has any time or anything to say to you.

 

To be honest, your center sounds more akin to a cult where everyone is unified in every way.

[Paul]

In that case your previous answer "Because in their presence life is bliss" is inadequate. So can you please answer my question adequately? Why do you consider the long list of the people you mentioned to be your teachers?

 

Because they are realized beings, meaning they can demonstrate common and uncommon siddhi, and based on that, I requested teachings and received them.

[Paul]

To be honest, your center sounds more akin to a cult where everyone is unified in every way.

 

Buddhism is dangerous if you don't treat it with respect. You wouldn't let children play with knives would you?

[goldisheavy]

Because they are realized beings, meaning they can demonstrate common and uncommon siddhi, and based on that, I requested teachings and received them.

 

What are those psychic powers? Which psychic powers have they demonstrated to you?

 

Now, if I understand you correctly this time, a teacher is someone who can overpower or subvert your ordinary expectations of phenomenal reality. Did I get this right?

Edited July 9, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Paul]

What are those psychic powers? Which psychic powers have they demonstrated to you?

 

Those are common siddhi. The uncommon siddhi is what makes them realized.

 

Now, if I understand you correctly this time, a teacher is someone who can overpower or subvert your ordinary expectations of phenomenal reality. Did I get this right?

 

Nope. Okay, I'll give you a hint... contemplation.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Paul

[Simple_Jack]

The beginning of wisdom is admitting that there is much you don't know or understand.

 

Tell that to gatito, he's fulfilling the role of the prototypical neoadvaitan, by telling everyone they "don't get it".

Edited July 9, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

This is where I disagree with religious fundamentalists such as yourself. By deferring to the Buddha you have an ironclad defense with no weak points in your mind only.

 

The beginning of wisdom is admitting that there is much you don't know or understand.

 

I am intellectually ruthless with my concepts and belief systems. Do you question yourself? For most that creates much fear!

 

Gatito's going to continue to tell everyone they "don't get it" while proving why he's the ultimate Vedantin.

[ralis]

Buddhism is dangerous if you don't treat it with respect. You wouldn't let children play with knives would you?

 

 

When I first became involved in Buddhism, there were threats of hell realms, bad karmic repercussions, punishment for breaking samaya and other medieval/dark ages belief systems. I instantly grew tired of such childish beliefs. I believe there is a special vajra hell for certain transgressions against Lama's.

[goldisheavy]

Those are common siddhi. The uncommon siddhi is what makes them realized.

 

"Siddhi" is just a useless jargon word. Let's use English, please. Now in English we say "psychic power" instead of siddhi. That way everyone can understand what we're talking about.

 

So common siddhis means common psychic powers.

 

And uncommon siddhis means uncommon psychic powers.

 

You have stated that your teachers have each demonstrated both kinds of psychic power to you. I am asking you to please describe what specifically have you experienced with some of the teachers you mention and how that relates to them being your teachers?

 

 

Now, if I understand you correctly this time, a teacher is someone who can overpower or subvert your ordinary expectations of phenomenal reality. Did I get this right?

 

 

Nope.

 

OK, so what is wrong with how I am saying it?

[Paul]

"Siddhi" is just a useless jargon word. Let's use English, please.

 

No. It means accomplishment.

 

Now in English we say "psychic power" instead of siddhi. That way everyone can understand what we're talking about.

 

So common siddhis means common psychic powers.

 

And uncommon siddhis means uncommon psychic powers.

 

Nope. Uncommon siddhi means realization of emptiness.

 

You have stated that your teachers have each demonstrated both kinds of psychic power to you. I am asking you to please describe what specifically have you experienced with some of the teachers you mention and how that relates to them being your teachers?

 

 

OK, so what is wrong with how I am saying it?

 

I'll give you a hint... contemplation.

[Paul]

When I first became involved in Buddhism, there were threats of hell realms, bad karmic repercussions, punishment for breaking samaya and other medieval/dark ages belief systems. I instantly grew tired of such childish beliefs. I believe there is a special vajra hell for certain transgressions against Lama's.

 

Congratulations.

[ralis]

Congratulations.

 

Congratulations for what? For realizing how childish such nightmarish belief systems these were?

[goldisheavy]

No. It means accomplishment.

 

Is walking a siddhi then? I think "psychic power" is a better translation. Accomplishment is too wide and too unspecific.

 

 

Nope. Uncommon siddhi means realization of emptiness.

 

Isn't this the very thing that cannot be taught? If yes, how were they able to demonstrate this realization to you?

 

 

I'll give you a hint... contemplation.

 

Sorry, can you give me more? A lot more, if you don't mind.

[Paul]

Is walking a siddhi then? I think "psychic power" is a better translation. Accomplishment is too wide and too unspecific.

 

there are eight common siddhi, you can look it up on the innnernet

 

Isn't this the very thing that cannot be taught? If yes, how were they able to demonstrate this realization to you?

 

Read the Heart Sutra.

 

Sorry, can you give me more? A lot more, if you don't mind.

 

I mind. If you want to know more, you can request a meeting.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Paul

[asunthatneversets]

When I first became involved in Buddhism, there were threats of hell realms, bad karmic repercussions, punishment for breaking samaya and other medieval/dark ages belief systems. I instantly grew tired of such childish beliefs. I believe there is a special vajra hell for certain transgressions against Lama's.

I mean, it's pretty simple; if you aren't mindful of your karma then you end up reifying delusional propensities and samsara continues to proliferate, hence suffering proliferates.

 

Samaya is a suggested set of guidelines for conduct, if you aren't mindful of your conduct then you end up reifying delusional propensities and samsara continues to proliferate, hence suffering proliferates.

 

An excerpt from the section on "Retaining the Blessings" from a soon-to-be published commentary on the Padma Garbha Tantra:

 

Samayas are the commitments that need to be upheld so that the blessings and benefits of the empowerment do not dissipate. Thrangu Rinpoche once said that if you can break the samaya then you hadnt received the real empowerment in the first place, for if you had actually received the empowerment then it is impossible to break the samaya. From that point of view there is never anything to worry about. However, actually receiving the true empowerment, rather than just going through the motions, appears to be quite rare; so we should consider what samayas are and how they can benefit our practice to help us attain complete enlightenment.

 

People commonly see a vow as something additional that one takes on, such as a promise that we make; if we do not keep it then we are said to break our vow. The word samaya, however, means not to become separate from, therefore the samayas describe how to avoid straying from the intrinsic qualities of our innate nature. For example, the empowerments all lead to the recognition of the primordially pure emptiness of all phenomena, so the samaya of the view is to never lose sight of that basic truth; thus, from this perspective, whenever you become distracted, you can be said to have broken your samaya.

 

There is a tendency to believe that if you break samaya, then you are to be punished in some way; for example, you will go to hell, get sick, have an accident or such. However, the fact is that simply by not maintaining the view or by not acting in accordance with the view, you naturally suffer. As ignorance or unknowing (Skt. avidya, Tib. marigpa) is the single root cause of samsara, any so-called punishment is contained in the very straying itself. It hurts when you put your hand in the fire, otherwise you wouldnt pull your hand away and you would suffer horrible burns; likewise we should be thankful that losing the view results in pain and suffering, as otherwise we would never seek the complete liberation of buddhahood and instead just continue perpetuating samsara. According to the viewpoint of Vajrayana, even hell is a pure realm of great bliss. It is just a matter of perspective; if you dont recognize the ground of primordial purity then you are going to suffer your own personal hell, but if you do recognize it then wherever you are will be a pure buddha field.

 

It is really quite logical and reasonable. Far from anything which even remotely resembles a medieval belief system

[ralis]

there are eight common siddhi, you can look it up on the innnernet

 

 

Read the Heart Sutra.

 

 

I mind. If you want to know more, you can request a meeting.

 

Where does one meet with you? Are prostrations required as a preliminary?

[goldisheavy]

there are eight common siddhi, you can look it up on the innnernet

 

 

Read the Heart Sutra.

 

 

I mind. If you want to know more, you can request a meeting.

 

You are being evasive.

 

I'll be straightforward with you. The only way we will meet is if you eat the Earth I walk upon right in front of me, and prostrate to me one hundred times in a row. Only this will possibly be sufficient to erase your arrogance just enough so that I may properly instruct your narrow mind.

Edited July 9, 2014 by goldisheavy