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C T, May 13, 2014 in Buddhist Discussion
I met Trungpa a time or two when he was up at Oxford.
He was always pissed.
Lineage neither aids drunken-driving nor will it save one's liver.
A sad case and a life cut tragically short by addiction.
spiritual evolution does imply seeing past the obvious, dont you think so, GMP?
If Trungpa Rinpoche's actions brought you awareness, then it was not all in vain. Yet, if all it did was to lead one to another cul de sac, perhaps we should reevaluate our own perceptions and try to negotiate past preconceived notions of good and bad and do the right thing, as in, reserve judgement so that we remain open to receiving good advice without discriminating the source.
Some of the most brilliant sports coaches i know are completely lacking in morals, but i still respect them for that one thing they have which enables result, which is simply to bring out the best in their teams, nothing more.
If one is not thirsty, even the cleanest water source will not appeal.
Yep I hear that bro.
Trungpa's done to death online for exactly these reasons.
I don't have a dog in that fight, I just met the guy is all.
He was a shambling incontinent wreck of a man ruined by booze.
Maybe he was an enlightened master he for sure had the lineage to be one.
When he spoke at Tassajara Trungpa was off his face and fell off the platform twice but David Chadwick records that many present said it was the best Dharma talk they ever sat.
We each choose our own heroes or none.
Done here now, all good wishes with the thread.
I would say - "better to be safe than sorry". The teacher/s you connect to is a very important point for cultivation.
If we don't have the direct vision to see whether someone is at a high spiritual level or not (the words they say are not an indicator),
then next best is to look at the conduct of the person.
If that is dodgy, then perhaps better safe than sorry.
Lots of examples out there of people who clearly have some deep insight and yet express human weaknesses.
I think it's very important for us to not forget that our teachers are human and subject to mistakes.
I suspect this is why we are always taught to do guru yoga with a figure that represents all of our teachers and never specifically with our teacher him or herself.
The vulnerability of the teacher does not necessarily weaken or negate their message.
We can learn from anyone and any situation if we are engaged and open.
Trungpa is a good example of that, along with Watts, Osho, Gurdjieff, Krishnamurti, Milarepa, etc...
On the other hand, the teacher's behavior does have a strong impact on who I would choose to actively study with.
In my own experience, I had a superb teacher for a long time and saw them act in ways that ultimately led me to look elsewhere for deeper instruction.
If we don't see our teacher living their teachings, it is very hard to generate and maintain genuine devotion and trust [edited to add] in the teacher OR the teachings.
Without that devotion and trust in our teacher and the teachings, progress is difficult.
So was my father, dat da kamma damma right der!
Ha ha ha!
Now we cut to the quick.
I knock Choggy Trungpa!
Into Cockerel Spaniel Hat!
I got 110% KraZy WiZ DOM!
So Choggy gave me one of my best gagz.
Gotta thank him for that.
But he know not way of DAO.
Way of booze be way of forgetting.
I'm sure you all remember.
I assure you I am quite sober at all times.
I am quite a serious minded man.
No idle fantasist I.
I caution all against seeking illumination via narcotics.
That is not the way.
I did find it funny he crashed his car into a joke shop, I wonder if that was on purpose
There was no request here for anyone to adopt Trungpa Rinpoche to be their spiritual guru. If that video did not have a face, just a message, im sure there'd be some who'd go, "Hey, that was a good teaching alright!".
The man has passed away, still, there are those who choose to 'crucify' him each time his name comes up. Strange world this. Me, i just listen and distill the message. If i get caught up in wanting to investigate the moral behaviours of each disseminator of spiritual talks before taking things on board, i'd be a very distracted person indeed. Moreover, its helpful to know how to separate the messenger from the message. Then less messengers get shot.
At the time I read his books like Cutting through Spiritual Materialism I thought they were great. Later I heard all the stories about drinking and wotnot and it put me off rather. But still he taught many and has a legacy and place in the history of dharma in the west.
Moreover, its helpful to know how to separate the messenger from the message.
I never heard of this guy but it is called "integrity" when you walk the talk.
My first swimming coach did not even know how to swim, but he was pretty adept at coaching, and had loads of integrity. Lots of football coaches dont play the game, but when it comes to having the integrity to fulfil their commitment to lead the team on towards the intended objective, which is to motivate the team to tactically win the game, they excel in doing just that. Just because the coach does not play the game, or has a mediocre record as a player, hardly counts for anything in the real world.
Besides, underprivileged but intelligent parents fare rather well in ensuring their kids get past their own limitations. Its called 'being innovative'. Part of being innovative involves knowing exactly one's limitations, leveraging available resources, and how to implement these successfully, thereby improving on previous models. Walking the talk can mean different things to different people, on various levels. Many people who appear to walk the talk are often limited by their habitual way of walking. We tend to learn better from past limitations and mistakes, if there is a certain amount of wisdom there.
Durham University paper on Trungpa's legacy here.
There are a couple of Shambhala centers (Trungpa's school) here in the LA area that I've visited. I like the people there, and I like that art is emphasized as part of the path. I've an old friend who studied with Trungpa back in the day and my impression from what she said is that Trungpa had a *lot* of shakti radiating through him.
There's a film (either currently in production or recently out, I don't know) about Trungpa that I got to see a pre-release screening of at a local center. Interviews of students, footage of Trungpa, etc. Sorry I don't recall the title of the movie. I was particularly impressed by two things within that film:
1. That students were very open, honest, real about Trungpa's behavior and about the dynamics within the community. They weren't making any attempt to hide things. I found that admirable (and some of the behavior I wouldn't want to be around, but at least they were just talking about it openly).
2. There's a certain kind of devotion, energy, *some*thing in students who've been with a teacher from whom they received deep transmission. It's recognizable. A number of students exhibited that, imho.