Mindfulness or Mindlessness?

[thelerner]

My sensei used to say there is the nothing that is nothing, and the nothing that is Something. Likewise there is the emptiness that is nothing and the emptiness that is something.

 

When we hit, we stay relaxed, no muscle, intention and the nothing that is something. Similarly when we meditate we strive for the emptiness which is something. The concept doesn't translate very well, but there is the experience of it. The nothing that is Something.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

First there is Wuji, nothingness to the ultimate, then there is Dao.

 

Stay close to Dao.

[exorcist_1699]

Mindlessness can have many layers, maybe endless layers....

 

 

The ability of crossing these layers with ease defines how talented you are in qigong/Taoist practice;

 

more precisely speaking , it enables how delicate and powerful the qi you can initialize ; qi and

the mindless Mind is just two faces of the same coin: Tao .

 

A forever deepening mindless Mind that doesn't mind Itself is what we want ( that means never should you try to search ; whenever you try to search /attain it , you lose it ...) .

Edited April 5, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[ChiDragon]

Well , If CD wants to say that the mind lingers on nothingness , the proper word structure would appear to be mindlessness , unless you think you mind is the absence of structured thoughts, and thats not the conventional view of mind but rather the lack of one. He could have meant that the mind does linger on things but when its not , it is an experience of nothing. So I decided to tease a bit.

 

I'm not quite sure that "lingers on nothing" fits the meaning of "mindlessness" in Dazuo(打坐) other than in meditation. These two terms are different as I had indicated in my "Zazen, Dazuo and Meditation" thread in the General Discussion Section. It seems to me that people want to attain the state of "mindlessness" in the same state as in Dazuo even though the word "meditation" was used!

 

"Mindlessness" in Dazuo is to have the mind in a vacuous state(虛無) which showing no sign of intelligence or sensitive feelings. The goal is to have the mind in a complete "quiet and blank" state

 

 

Edited to correct:

"quiet and blank" from "quiet and blink"

Edited April 5, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

"quiet and blink" state.

Shouldn't that be "quiet and blind" state?

[GrandmasterP]

There's a popular maths book about Zero called...

" The Nothing that is. A natural history of zero."

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0713992840/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1396705308&sr=8-1&keywords=The+nothing+that+is&condition=used

 

It's quite profound in parts.

Only costs one (UK) penny plus p&p from Amazon partners if anyone's interested.

Edited April 5, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[ChiDragon]

Shouldn't that be "quiet and blind" state?

 

oops....Typo!

It should be "quiet and blank" state.

[Marblehead]

 

oops....Typo!

It should be "quiet and blank" state.

Okay. That's even better than quiet and blind.

[Stosh]

 

I'm not quite sure that "lingers on nothing" fits the meaning of "mindlessness" in Dazuo(打坐) other than in meditation. These two terms are different as I had indicated in my "Zazen, Dazuo and Meditation" thread in the General Discussion Section. It seems to me that people want to attain the state of "mindlessness" in the same state as in Dazuo even though the word "meditation" was used!

 

"Mindlessness" in Dazuo is to have the mind in a vacuous state(虛無) which showing no sign of intelligence or sensitive feelings. The goal is to have the mind in a complete "quiet and blank" state

 

 

Edited to correct:

"quiet and blank" from "quiet and blink"

You posted this

 

To an ordinary person, mindlessness is "notices nothing".

For a cultivator, mindlessness is "lingers on nothing".

 

I'm not quite sure that "lingers on nothing" fits the meaning of "mindlessness" in Dazuo(打坐)

 

So ,,, It looks like youre disagreeing with your own position, but that probably just means Im not understanding your point , so could you reclarify? that would be helpful

because ,, Using the same english word for two non-english-oriented considerations ,, which may not actually be distinctly different situations, doesnt lead to any clarity, its looking like ,,as Brian might say ,, splitting hairs ( which is creating divisions that have no significance) .

Im just not seeing what you are indicating is a difference between

Quiet and blank

and

Lingering on nothing

except that blank would just be more 'lingering on nothing',,,-ing

I guess my precept is that , the mind , in not connecting data points into structured imagery ,words, or emotions, renders a sensation of blankness . (To reword , that its a mentally homogenized state. )

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2014 by Stosh

[Stosh]

I had a chuckle. Is that an example of faith? Or confidence?

Wherever one puts their foot , Something will be there. That is confidence.

Having an expectation , that wherever one puts their foot ,,wont suck ,,, thats faith.

[Marblehead]

Or maybe like walking on water knowing that there are no rocks for you to walk on?

[GrandmasterP]

Trust in the magic stepping stones.

Just so long as you also know how to swim.

 

:-)

Edited April 6, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Or maybe like walking on water knowing that there are no rocks for you to walk on?

Well, it works, if the water is frozen.

But the rocks are a guide , which is supposed to be of assistance to folks wandering around in the swamp, dropping rocks around at random ,, confuses the issues , and leave persons guideless. One can choose to not blaze a trail , one can get rid of the misleading trails , or leave a clear trail. Option one, isnt of any help but it at least isnt obstructive , option two and three, attempt to be , but potentially are obstructive.

Suggestions , and rocks are like bholes , everyone has them , theyre all over the place,, so trying to walk around without stumbling on some rocks doesnt happen.

[Stosh]

Trust in the magic stepping stones.

Just so long as you also know how to swim.

 

:-)

What trust is needed ? if one doesnt need to trust.

All that would be is -following.

Ill skip on the magic rocks.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

Good call.

Faith- full.

Kudos!

I'd tend to check if there was a bridge or ferry further along down the riverbank.

But each to his own.

Once safely across the river we can all forget the means by which we crossed it.

Edited April 6, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

............Hey ! theres a ferry??

 

Why didnt they just say so!!

[GrandmasterP]

There's always a ferry.

Or a bridge.

Somewhere along any riverbank.

Some people just enjoy risk taking.

Edited April 6, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Then doesnt the happy paddler take the directest route , and the ferry rider make the mistake?

[ChiDragon]

You posted this

 

To an ordinary person, mindlessness is "notices nothing".

For a cultivator, mindlessness is "lingers on nothing".

 

I'm not quite sure that "lingers on nothing" fits the meaning of "mindlessness" in Dazuo(打坐)

 

So ,,, It looks like youre disagreeing with your own position, but that probably just means Im not understanding your point , so could you reclarify? that would be helpful

 

 

because ,, Using the same english word for two non-english-oriented considerations ,, which may not actually be distinctly different situations, doesnt lead to any clarity, its looking like ,,as Brian might say ,, splitting hairs ( which is creating divisions that have no significance) .

Im just not seeing what you are indicating is a difference between

Quiet and blank

and

Lingering on nothing

except that blank would just be more 'lingering on nothing',,,-ing

I guess my precept is that , the mind , in not connecting data points into structured imagery ,words, or emotions, renders a sensation of blankness . (To reword , that its a mentally homogenized state. )

 

It was my response in using somebody else's words.

To an ordinary person, mindlessness is "notices nothing".

This was due to lack of interest in anything.

For a cultivator, mindlessness is "lingers on nothing".

This was due to having a great effort to think of nothing.

 

A "Quiet and blank" State

This is a state of mind to be attained without any mental effort.

Edited April 6, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Once safely across the river we can all forget the means by which we crossed it.

I just wanted to repeat this.