The Compassionate Daoist vs. the Compassionate buddhist

[Marblehead]

Apparently that didn't interest you very much. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

To help someone with a difference of compassion between a Taoist and Buddhist.

A Taoist helped someone is because it was a natural thing to do.

A Buddhist helped someone is because it was a kind-hearted thing to do with sympathy.

Edited September 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[steve]

To help someone with a difference of compassion between a Taoist and Buddhist.

 

A Taoist helped someone is because it was a natural thing to do.

 

A Buddhist helped someone is because it was a kind-hearted thing to do with sympathy.

 

The "goal" of Daoism is to not interfere with nature - compassion arises from being natural.

The "goal" of Buddhism is to manifest your true nature - compassion arises from your true nature

No difference in the outcome, only a difference in the methods to get there...

Call me new age, whatevs...

[Ish]

Just take a moment to feel how your energy reforms as you sincerely wish the best for others - and your self.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Ish

[ChiDragon]

The "goal" of Daoism is to not interfere with nature with adversity - compassion arises from being natural.

The "goal" of Buddhism is to manifest your true nature - compassion arises from your true nature

No difference in the outcome, only a difference in the methods to get there...

Call me new age, whatevs...

 

Yes, I agreed with you. The outcome is the same but the approach in thoughts are different. However, our minds are governed by our distinctive definitions. The philosophical "goal" of Taoism is natural; but the religious "goal" of Buddhism is abide by the canons.

 

 

"The "goal" of Buddhism is to manifest your true nature - compassion arises from your true nature"

The statement is valid for all other than Buddhism. However, it may or may not be the true nature for Buddhists because it is mandatory in Buddhism.

Edited September 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

 

Yes, I agreed with you. The outcome is the same but the approach in thoughts are different. However, our minds are governed by our distinctive definitions. The philosophical "goal" of Taoism is natural; but the religious "goal" of Buddhism is abide by the canons.

 

The goal of Buddhism is to abide by the canons! Where did you get that from? I think you need to go back to the books.

[ChiDragon]

The goal of Buddhism is to abide by the canons! Where did you get that from? I think you need to go back to the books.

 

That is part of their religion beliefs.

 

 

Edited to add:

BTW You have my indulgence of the last remark.

Edited September 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

 

That is part of their religion.

 

 

Not the goal just the skilful means.

[Marblehead]

Edited to add:

BTW You have my indulgence of the last remark.

Well, you did leave yourself open and he didn't feel very compassionate at the time.

[Dagon]

Western, eastern, there is no difference other than the direction you are looking.

 

I think if it is true, then it is true regardless of what direction you are looking when it hits you.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Dagon

[ChiDragon]

 

Western, eastern, there is no difference other than the direction you are looking.

 

There is no difference or have not experienced the difference........???

[Dagon]

Sorry, your right, I could have elaborated on the point much better.

 

I am both east and west from you.

Such are the ways of spherical constructs.

If the earth was flat it would be a different story.

[Dagon]

Sure, Gaia could be considered as such, depending on your definition.

 

I prefer to call her nature.

 

Thanks Rainbow Vein.

I was just going to mention something along those lines in the other thread just a moment ago, that anything that comes to you is within Gaia, as she surrounds us all.

Synchronicity, or coincidence, I guess.

Immortal, spirit, deity, or otherwise.

[Cheshire Cat]

(from one of my older posts)

 

Now I suspect that the chinese term used for compassion is slightly different from our western "compassion".
The etymology of "compassion" is Latin, meaning "co-suffering." More virtuous than simple empathy, compassion commonly gives rise to an active desire to alleviate another's suffering. It is often, though not inevitably, the key component in what manifests in the social context as altruism.(wikipedia).

But, I'm quite sure that there's no compassion amongst animals. They don't need compassion. They aren't lacking.

This is what Lao-Tzu said in chapter 5 of DaoTeChing.


天 地 不 仁 ，
以 万 物 为 刍 狗 ﹔
圣 人 不 仁 ，
以 百 姓 为 刍 狗 。
　 　
天 -->Heaven
地---> earth
不--->are not
仁---> humanity, goodness, compassion, perfect virtue

[...]

圣--->the sage
人--->man
不--->is not
仁--->humanity, goodness, compassion, perfect virtue

以---> to treat
百---> one hundred, moltitude
姓--->clan, families
为--->as
刍--->straw
狗--->dog

May I translate as "The sage is not human" or "The sage is not compassionate" ... because "he treats all human beings as straw dogs"?

 

I just found a few authoritative translations of these verses:

Heaven and earth are not humane; they regard all beings as straw dogs
Sages are not humane; they see all people as straw dogs.. (Cleary)

Nature is not humane. It treats all things like sacrificial objects.
The wise are not humane. They regard people like sacrificial objects. (Beck)

Heaven and Earth are not humane. They regard all things a straw dogs.
The sage is not humane. He regards all people as straw dogs. (Chan)

Heaven and Earth are not Good they treat the thousands of things like straw dogs
The Wise Person is not Good he treats the hundred clans like straw dogs. (La Fargue)

Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with.
The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with. (Legge)

Nature is unkind: It treats the creation like sacrificial straw-dogs.
The Sage is unkind: He treats the people like sacrificial straw-dogs. (LinYutan)

[Marblehead]

Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with.

The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with. (Legge)

 

 

Even though I don't care much for Legge's translation I think that this is closer to a "truth" than are any of the other translations.

 

And that is because of what I bolded above.

 

If we consider Tzujan in the first sentence and wu wei in the second sentence Compassion still exists in both.

[dawei]

But, I'm quite sure that there's no compassion amongst animals. They don't need compassion. They aren't lacking.

 

If we followed this line the we may end up saying animals don't have emotions (or certain emotions) and this argument begins to fall apart for me. The way our compassion manifests may not be exactly the way an animals might.

 

This is what Lao-Tzu said in chapter 5 of DaoTeChing.

 

天 -->Heaven

地---> earth

不--->are not

仁---> humanity, goodness, compassion, perfect virtue

 

It is very interesting how much variations this one word, Ren, has produced.

 

I will note that Ren only shows up in the oldest manuscript in one chapter and in a negative sense:

Guodian 18:

Therefore, when the Great Way is rejected, it is then that "humanity" and "righteousness" show up on the scene; -- Hendricks

 

Various later manuscripts add it to Ch. 5,8,19,38,64.

 

The absence in the Guodian and the negative use reflects how we might consider how to understand DDJ5 usage by not translating it but knowing the negative connotation to Confucius's most important virtue, REN.

 

Heaven and Earth (and the Sage) are NOT REN.

 

Their Way is not--the impulse of--Ren; Their Way is the Way itself.

 

We can forget trying to apply emotions, virtue, etc... Just know that when one loses the Way of Li Erh they end up grabbing hold of the Way of Kong Zi.

Edited September 13, 2013 by dawei

[Unlearner]

I am new to this forum, so I feel that I may be stepping a little out of my element in choosing to comment here, but I simply wanted to share an insight I had regarding this very idea.

 

With regards to compassion, I feel that there is no contradiction between the Buddhist and Taoist ideas on it. While it is true that many ideas in both tend to point towards being separate, aloof from the problems of others, not striving with others, etc, an idea I first had when I began studying, there is a subtle, yet significant difference between realizing the Way and following the Way. Rather than try to forumlate my own words to describe this idea, I will share this koan:

 

"Anyone walking about Chinatowns in America with observe statues of a stout fellow carrying a linen sack. Chinese merchants call him Happy Chinaman or Laughing Buddha.

 

This Hotei lived in the T'ang dynasty. He had no desire to call himself a Zen master or to gather many disciples about him. Instead he walked the streets with a big sack into which he would put gifts of candy, fruit, or doughnuts. These he would give to children who gathered around him in play. He established a kindergarten of the streets.

 

Whenever he met a Zen devotee he would extend his hand and say: "Give me one penny." And if anyone asked him to return to a temple to teach others, again he would reply: "Give me one penny."

 

Once he was about his play-work another Zen master happened along and inquired: "What is the significance of Zen?"

Hotei immediately plopped his sack down on the ground in silent answer.

"Then," asked the other, "what is the actualization of Zen?"

At once the Happy Chinaman swung the sack over his shoulder and continued on his way."

 

-Zen Koan

source: http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/12happychinaman.html

 

Immediately, upon reading this, I felt as if a light had fallen upon something I had been ignoring, the difference between this "significance" and the true "actualization". I feel that this applies to both Buddhism and Taoism, that while learning to follow the Way will lead you towards emptying your mind, not striving with others, and seeing the illusion of what is before you, to actually follow the way necessitates compassion in everything you do.

 

If I am in any way wrong, someone please jump in and correct me.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Unlearner

[Dagon]

While it is true that many ideas in both tend to point towards being separate, aloof from the problems of others, not striving with others, etc, an idea I first had when I began studying, there is a subtle, yet significant difference between realizing the Way and following the Way.

 

I think this is a good point, Wu Wei seems to be often misconstrued as a path rather than realization as well, imo.

[Dagon]

The Gaia hypothesis, also known as Gaia theory or Gaia principle, proposes that organisms interact with their inorganic surroundings on Earth to form a self-regulating, complex system that contributes to maintaining the conditions for life on the planet. Topics of interest include how the biosphere and the evolution of life forms affect the stability of global temperature, ocean salinity, oxygen in the atmosphere and other environmental variables that affect the habitability of Earth.

The hypothesis was formulated by the scientist James Lovelock^[1] and co-developed by the microbiologist Lynn Margulis in the 1970s.^[2] While early versions of the hypothesis were criticized for being teleological and contradicting principles ofnatural selection, later refinements have resulted in ideas highlighted by the Gaia Hypothesis being used in subjects such as geophysiology, Earth system science, biogeochemistry, systems ecology, and climate science.^[3][4][5] In 2006, theGeological Society of London awarded Lovelock the Wollaston Medal largely for his work on the Gaia theory.^[6]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

Edited September 14, 2013 by Dagon

[Dagon]

Not sure what your point is.

 

You don't like the objective data with evidence? Or what is your problem, and why do you seem so defensive about what I said? I would personally feel elated if science confirmed my personal beliefs, rather than take it out on the messenger.

 

Maybe some prefer objective data over belief based data.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Dagon

[dawei]

 

 

Where Outer and Inner Meet

by Eva Wong

The energetic principles that govern the natural world apply also to mind and body, says Eva Wong. She explains kanyu, the Taoist philosophy of external and internal harmony that is the basis of feng shui. As it is externally, so it is internally: this is the essence of kanyu, the traditional Chinese art of understanding and living in harmony with the energy in the land.

Kan means mountain and yu means valley or lowland. Kanyu is rooted in the Taoist belief that all things - humans, plants, animals, land, and even mist and cloud - owe their existence to the tao. If everything in the universe is a manifestation of the unconditional and primordial energy of the tao, then it follows that the same principles of existence and nonexistence govern both the macrocosm of nature and the microcosm of mind and body.

Kanyu became a distinct system of knowledge

in the third century

..

40 year old virgins aside...

 

very cool.... and Kanyu originated with Fuxi... it is very ancient...

[Dagon]

Gaia originated with the druids around 200 B.C. afaik.

 

I thought Fu Xi was a myth?

 

Correction, the earliest I could find was the greeks and/or romans:

 

Gaia (/ˈɡeɪ.ə/ or /ˈɡaɪ.ə/; from Ancient Greek Γαῖα, a poetical form of Gē Γῆ, "land" or "earth";^[1] also Gaea, or Ge) was the goddess or personification of Earth in ancient Greek religion,^[2] one of the Greek primordial deities. Gaia was the great mother of all: the primal Greek Mother Goddess; creator and giver of birth to the Earth and all the Universe; the heavenly gods, the Titans and the Giants were born from her union with Uranus (the sky), while the sea-gods were born from her union with Pontus (the sea). Her equivalent in the Roman pantheon was Terra.^[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)

Edited September 14, 2013 by Dagon

[dawei]

--Fu Xi, (伏羲) was born Mi Xi (宓羲), which means ‘silent breath’. He was born in approximately 2900-2800 BC, and wore grass clothing, ate wood and is said to have been born with a sacred virtue (神聖之德) which could tame the animals and control the weather. He is also known as Tai Hao (太昊), or Great Magnificant, Tai Di (太帝) or Celestial Emperor, and Pao Xi (庖犧) which may be the origin of his teaching of "yielding sacrificial-animals". Fu Xi's surname was Feng (風, wind) which is pronounced the same as another character Feng (鳳) meaning a Pheonix. Fu Xi observed Pheonixes gathering on a tong tree and based on this image he made the string instrument guqin (he cut down a piece of tong wood to make a qin and used silk cord for strings). The sound of the Qin was said to restore the inner soul. He is called the first of the Sovereigns and attributed to be guided by the element of wood, the season of spring, the cardinal direction of east, and the planet of Jupiter. He is credited with inventing writing, nets for fishing, hunting, riding animals for transportation.

 

Fu Xi taught the people how to raise sheep and sacrificial animals so as to offer them for rituals. According to legend, he and his sister, Nu Wa, were the only survivors of a world-wide flood and praying to the Jade Emperor they received approval for marriage. He ruled over his descendents and lived a total of 197 years. He is said to be the originator of “The Book of Change” (Yi Jing, 易经, more commonly written as I Ching in the west), the oldest of the five classics, which is the source and basis for the Chinese explanation of how the universe unfolds, manifests and influences all life. This writing ultimately impacted cosmology, Yin Yang, Traditional Chinese Medicine theory, Feng Shui, etc. Fu Xi is said to have invented the 100 Chinese family names and decreed that marriages may only take place between persons bearing different family names; these are also attributed to others.

 

Fu Xi sought an understanding of the universal laws of nature and identified five planetary influences (ie: the precursor to the five phases, also known as the five elements). He is said to have observed all things above and below, which is the essence of “Kan Yu” (ancient precursor to Feng Shui). According to legend, he was meditating next to the Luo River when a strange creature lept out which had markings on its back which later developed into the Yellow Map (He Tu). Another story relates that Fu Xi went to Gua Tai Mountains to gain an understanding of the workings of the ways of heaven. He saw a great horse with the head of a dragon jump on a rock at the Wei Shui River at the foot of the mountains. This rock was shaped like the Tai Ji symbol as known today. These various stories emphasis Fuxi’s interest in understanding how the elemental forces transform and relate and also provide the origin for the eight trigram’s development of the 81 Hexagrams of the Yi Jing. Fu Xi is also said to have studied Qi (the universal energy of the universe). In cosmological stories, Fu Xi is said to be the first husband, marrying his sister Nu Wa.

 

The I Ching (Book of Change) states: “In the old times of King Fuxi’s regime, he observed sky and the stars when he looks upwards, and researched the earth when he looks downwards, and watched the birds and beasts to see how they live in their environment. He took examples from nearby and far away, and then made 8 Yin Yang signs to simulate the rules of universe.”

 

Folklore relates: “In the beginning there was as yet no moral or social order. Men knew their mothers only, not their fathers. When hungry, they searched for food; when satisfied, they threw away the remnants. They devoured their food hide and hair, drank the blood, and clad themselves in skins and rushes. Then came Fu Xi and looked upward and contemplated the images in the heavens, and looked downward and contemplated the occurrences on earth. He united man and wife, regulated the five stages of change, and laid down the laws of humanity. He devised the eight trigrams, in order to gain mastery over the world.” (Ban Gu, Baihu tongyi written in the first century AD).

 

Zhuangzi wrote: “Are you, Sir, unacquainted with the age of perfect virtue? Anciently there were Rong-cheng, Da-ting, Bo-huang, Zhong-yang, Li-lu,Li-Chu, Xian-yuan, He-xu, Zun-lu, Zhu-rong, Fu-xi, and Shen-nong. In their times the people made knots on cords in carrying on their affairs. They thought their (simple) food pleasant, and their (plain) clothing beautiful. They were happy in their (simple) manners, and felt at rest in their (poor) dwellings. (The people of) neighbouring states might be able to descry one another; the voices of their cocks and dogs might be heard (all the way) from one to the other; they might not die till they were old; and yet all their life they would have no communication together. In those times perfect good order prevailed.” -- Legge

 

In medicine, Fu Xi is said to taste many herbs and utilize the treatment of Bian [stone] Healing in order to cure people of their ailments by adjusting their Qi circulation. The Huang Di Nei Jing (Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine) is a manual that established the foundation on which principles of Chinese medicine still operate to this day and makes references to Bian Stone healing. According to Huangfu Mi (c. 215-282 AD), author of The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, needling therapy was first used during China's Bronze Age, over five thousand years ago. He attributes its invention to either Fu Xi or Huang Di. Archeology has so far only unearthed such stones from Shangdong province dating to 3500 BC.

 

Fuxi’s major role in ancient myth is attested by most of the Zhou era sources, yet he does not feature in the ancient myth book attributed to Yu the Great, The Book of Mountains and Seas. This early myth book does mention the divinity Tai Hao which was associated to the direction of east and the element wood. Fuxi was given more prominence in the Han period with the appendix text of The Book of Change attributing his role in the Trigrams. It is also in the Han period that he is associated to Tai Hao and the goddess Nu Wa which resulted in the famous painting of their intertwined serpent tails. In late- and post-Han periods Fuxi and Nuwa take on more demythologized descriptions.

 

---

 

My personal history/myth account over the years of wanderings... bed time...

[Dagon]

At the heart of kanyu is the belief that the land is a living entity filled with qi, or energy, that is carried in mountains, valleys, and waterways, just as qi is carried in the pathways of the body.

 

 

That is interesting but if we are to believe Eva Wong then:

 

 

Kanyu became a distinct system of knowledge in the third century

Edited September 15, 2013 by Dagon

[Dagon]

Edited September 15, 2013 by Dagon