The Compassionate Daoist vs. the Compassionate buddhist

[dawei]

 

What a coincidence, the ancient Chinese and Western ideas are the same. Somebody seems want to deny it.

 

Sorry to say... only to you. Your 'proof' has been refuted by too many to comment further.

[ChiDragon]

Please don't..........!!!!

[Dagon]

Man's creations come forth after man's thoughts -> (imo) -> Man's thoughts come forth after man;-> "Man comes forth after Earth; Earth comes forth after Sky; Sky comes forth after Dao."

 

Unless you think that was intended as absolute, there is room for stuff to come after man, and many things have. Such is the definition of nature. (The definition of nature or concepts of it even came forth after man)

Edited September 10, 2013 by Dagon

[dawei]

Man's creations come forth after man's thoughts -> (imo) -> Man's thoughts come forth after man;-> "Man comes forth after Earth; Earth comes forth after Sky; Sky comes forth after Dao."

 

Unless you think that was intended as absolute, there is room for stuff to come after man, and many things have. Such is the definition of nature. (The definition of nature or concepts of it even came forth after man)

 

I agree and it can be drawn out further...

 

Man's creations and illusions come forth after man's thoughts... thoughts of separation from nature, the 10,000 and Dao...

 

As Hendrick's said in his translation of Guodian 18:

Therefore, when the Great Way is rejected, it is then that "humanity" and "righteousness" show up on the scene;

[Marblehead]

This may be a self-imposed limitation of those who view daoism purely through a philosophical lens...

And that's okay for we who do not 'practice' spirituality. Sure, I can talk about it when doing something like studying The Chuang Tzu because without it the readings would not be complete. But we don't have to hold to it within our own belief system. We really aren't missing anything, we are just filtering out what is not useful to us.

 

The common basis for everything is Ziran; naturalness. It would be a mistake to call this nature, IMO.

I totally agree. Ziran includes the ways of man (good, bad, or indifferent). It includes the way of lions, not very compassionate animals except with it own kind and sometimes not there either.

 

A large comet hitting Earth wouldn't be very compassionate either. But it would be natural although not very common.

 

Compassion is a man-made concept. We use it to base our opinion on how we think we and others should live our life. Being man-made it can apply only to man, IMO. And even then, I would question what I just said.

 

One never loses their self.

That is the ego speaking - the fear

Ones personality - ideas - evolve - change.

Your self is always there lying in wait

See? We agree, we are just using different words.

 

But I would suggest that there are those who have lost their "Self". They have no idea who they really are and are constantly filled with inner conflict.

 

 

What a coincidence, the ancient Chinese and Western ideas are the same. Somebody seems want to deny it.

It wasn't me! I refuse to accept that there is any great difference between the thinking of peoples of different cultures. We all are of the same animal species. (And yes, we all can reproduce, one with the other. That is what defines different species - those that cannot reproduce with one another.)

 

In fact, I want to add one more thought:

 

Tzujan (Ziran) is going beyond the concepts of Compassion, Humanity, and Morality.

[Dagon]

I think maybe it depends upon the audience how deep one can and should go with it, without causing too much confusion.

 

Maybe that was being taken into account.

Like different teachings for different perspectives.

[Brian]

Where did you folks get the idea that man is the only sentient being with a concept of "self" or that is capable of acting from deliberation? It is a contrived and egoistic attachment.

 

I think you need to spend more time being part of nature and less time philosophizing about your relationship to it.

[Marblehead]

I think maybe it depends upon the audience how deep one can and should go with it, without causing too much confusion.

 

Maybe that was being taken into account.

 

Like different teachings for different perspectives.

Yeah, I've gone as deep as I can and want to go. Different people have their different needs.

[Dagon]

Where did you folks get the idea that man is the only sentient being with a concept of "self" or that is capable of acting from deliberation? It is a contrived and egoistic attachment.

 

I think you need to spend more time being part of nature and less time philosophizing about your relationship to it.

 

I think that because there isn't evidence that they do. (IE; burden of proof)

 

To consider something as true there should be evidence for that something.

 

I don't know for a fact that there aren't animals being sentient, but if they are how could I know it if they can't communicate it?

 

Personally it seems like they are doing what they are trained or programmed to do by their DNA or people.

[Brian]

LOL

 

Based on your standard, I see no evidence to suggest that humans are sentient. The argument can easily be made that we all seem to be doing what we are trained or programmed by our DNA or people.

 

Animals communicate all the time. So do plants. I have personal knowledge that this is true of mammals and birds and trees and I see no reason to presume that sentience is not equivalent to life.

 

I feel no need to provide someone with "evidence" of that which is self-evident to anyone who cares to observe. If someone refuses to look at the night sky, I don't feel any compulsion to prove to their satisfaction that it is full of stars.

 

I respectfully recommend -- as someone who spent his first 40 years doing just the opposite before finally waking up -- that you stop living in your own head. Things will become much more simple and beautiful and clear.

 

NOTE: This is not specifically aimed at Dagon or any other individual, it is general advice to anyone who currently believes human beings are unique in this regard.

Edited September 10, 2013 by A Seeker

[Dagon]

Define sentience.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Dagon

[Dagon]

Communicating doesn't mean they feel pain, does it?

 

If so, maybe we should be careful not to walk on the grass or mow the yard, or prune the hedges . . . etc . . .

Better not take the plant's fruit or seeds!

[Marblehead]

If so, maybe we should be careful not to walk on the grass or mow the yard, or prune the hedges . . . etc . . .

 

Better not take the plant's fruit or seeds!

Yeah, I know, you are being silly now. Hehehe. I do that on occasion too.

 

Ask your dog if he loves you and he will jump all over you. Ask your cat and he will piss on your leg.

[Dagon]

lol, true, I am being silly.

 

Ask a dog if he's silly in an excited manner, it will jump on your leg as well.

 

Or ask the dog if you can eat him for dinner in the same tone, I would be willing to bet that it responds the same way.

[Dagon]

I'm curious how he managed to stay alive to write anything?

 

Or are animals to be considered more sentient or alive than plants?

Personally I don't like killing animals either.

 

In fact, just 2 days ago a Doe deer came up to me and stood just 5 feet away from me watching, and her baby was behind her about 10 ft. just watching me, and I just watched them in return.

Yesterday I had to dodge a bunch of aphids congregating on the sidewalk, lol.

 

[ChiDragon]

Thanks

My only response to your approach to DDJ would be - don't believe everything you think!

(nor do I)

Lao Zi points to things that go beyond rational thought and ideas.

That's where meditation can be helpful.

Best regards.

 

Thank you for your advice. I will try not to insult my own intelligence by believing in something without researching and comprehension. "Lao Zi points to things that go beyond rational thought and ideas" is because the way it was written paradoxically in Classic. It was not the way it seems.

 

BTW I would like to have some fine details explaining how meditation can be helpful in this matter. Thanks!

[Brian]

I'm curious how he managed to stay alive to write anything?

 

Or are animals to be considered more sentient or alive than plants?

 

Personally I don't like killing animals either.

 

In fact, just 2 days ago a Doe deer came up to me and stood just 5 feet away from me watching, and her baby was behind her about 10 ft. just watching me, and I just watched them in return.

 

Yesterday I had to dodge a bunch of aphids congregating on the sidewalk, lol.

 

 

Seems your soul knows better than to listen to your brain.

 

That's a good thing, my friend. Practice your qigong and continue listening.

 

In fact, I think that's what I shall do now as well!

 

[xor]

Yeah, I know, you are being silly now. Hehehe. I do that on occasion too.

 

Ask your dog if he loves you and he will jump all over you. Ask your cat and he will piss on your leg.

 

I think according to this definition my cat may be a dog... lol

[steve]

 

Thank you for your advice. I will try not to insult my own intelligence by believing in something without researching and comprehension. "Lao Zi points to things that go beyond rational thought and ideas" is because the way it was written paradoxically in Classic. It was not the way it seems.

 

BTW I would like to have some fine details explaining how meditation can be helpful in this matter. Thanks!

Your welcome.

There are aspects of existence that go beyond research and comprehension.

Belief is a bandaid we place over our ignorance to give ourselves the illusion of understanding and security.

 

Fine details explaining how meditation can be helpful in this matter -

That's something that could fill quite a few books but I'll try to be very concise.

 

Most of our lives are spent looking at the world through our thoughts.

When we do that, we are subjecting the world to a very sophisticated and very biased and programmed algorithm that's rooted in our conditioning. It's a product of our ancestors, our society, our culture, our teachers, our government, and so on.

That algorithm is a complex filter that applies labels, preferences, and judgments on everything that is taken in.

The system is a self consistent story that is essentially the story of our world as we experience it.

 

The story and the algorithm are completely contained within our heads. They have virtually nothing to do with reality.

So when we look at the world outside (or inside) we are really looking at an image created by our programmed image of that world. And that image is a very poor approximation that cuts off any possibility of deeper understanding.

 

One example - I see something small and brown fly past the window and make a particular noise and I say to myself - sparrow. Oh, that's a sparrow - I know all about that. Next.... But how much do really know about it? How much do your really know about that particular, individual living creature? Do you know anything about it's life, it's experience, it's physiology, it's consciousness? Do you know what distinguishes it from other "sparrows"? Is it possible that there is more there than we can find in an encyclopedic entry?

 

Another example - I bump in to someone I work with. Oh, that's Dave, I don't like Dave - he bumped me out of that promotion last month.... What do I really know about Dave? Is he happy? Is he ill? Is he a concert musician or a rapist? If I gave him a chance, he could turn out to be my best friend. But I know Dave, I don't like him... nothing will ever change. Same with everyone we meet. We make a quick assessment and judgment, based on the algorithm, slap on a concise label and the we "know" that person. And that "knowledge" sticks with us forever, unless something dramatic happens to shake it loose (which is extremely rare - how often do we markedly change our impression of a person?).

 

So our intellectualization and "understanding" of the world inside us and around us is a sham. It's a very sophisticated story that we continually tell ourselves over and over and it forms the basis for our entire life. It's useful from a practical point of view but it's extremely limiting and it is what separates us from reality and Nature. It is our fall from grace. We never interact with the world, just with our image of the world. We never interact with other people. Our image of our self interacts with our image of the other person... It is an ongoing dance of thoughts, preconceptions, assumptions, and expectations. And the narrator never lets up. It's always there narrating our story because without the narrator the story would fall apart and we would have no security.

 

So meditation gives us the opportunity to see the narrator for what it is and to possibly open ourselves up to what is rather than sleeping through life wrapped in the dream of our story. It takes enormous patience and dedication and the only way a person comes to see this for themselves is if they get dissatisfied or disillusioned with the status quo. And they have to be deeply dissatisfied because it's usually a difficult and slow process of breaking down the story. This is why it tends to occur most often in people who have been through profound and serious trauma.

 

And all of those words are just about worthless.

 

The only way to have any idea of what meditation can teach is to sit down and do it, preferably with some expert guidance to make sure you're on the right track initially. And there are plenty of excellent resources out there for the Buddhist methods, not so much for the Daoist methods...

[joeblast]

Thank you for your advice. I will try not to insult my own intelligence by believing in something without researching and comprehension. "Lao Zi points to things that go beyond rational thought and ideas" is because the way it was written paradoxically in Classic. It was not the way it seems.

BTW I would like to have some fine details explaining how meditation can be helpful in this matter. Thanks!

see the post just after your

[Dagon]

Seems your soul knows better than to listen to your brain.

 

That's a good thing, my friend. Practice your qigong and continue listening.

 

In fact, I think that's what I shall do now as well!

 

 

Well, I think to understand our true convictions, it is helpful to reason them out, and what better way than with the aid of a devils advocate? (Who's using the Buddhist perspectives here anyways?)

 

[Marblehead]

I think according to this definition my cat may be a dog... lol

I knew someone would get on me for the way I presented the cat. I prefer cats over dogs. I have none now thought.

[Dagon]

I don't really care to keep pets.

[Marblehead]

I don't really care to keep pets.

You could join that Buddhist school that ties the cat up to the tree whenever they conduct certain exercises.

[Dagon]