Transmission in Christian Mysticism

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

 

I will let Jeff speak for himself.

 

 

You were happily speaking for Jeff in an earlier post  (below), so I didn't realise there was a restriction on this, but fair enough.

 

Hi 3bob,

 

Thank you and very nicely said. Jeff often talks about it as a nesting doll concept. I often think of it as a dirty window and the more we let go the clearer things become.

 

As for me, motion and rest sounds exactly like the Heart Sutra.

 

Can you give specific examples of how motion and rests sounds exactly like the Heart Sutra to you?

 

 

I often think of silence/rest,void as a calm body of water. I think of form/motion/energy as the ripples on the pond.

 

Motion and rest as ripples on a pond and a calm body of water respectively seems quite sensible and quite a reasonable analogy. 

 

But this analogy doesn't clarify how motion and rest are 'evidence of the Father in us' for me. Can you tie it in?

 

 

 

The reason i bolded Present Moment is because I wanted to bring your attention to the none dualistic nature of what he was saying. Here Jesus is referring to ones Natural State.

 

 

 

Bindi you are making this very difficult.

 

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father.

 

If people are telling you the Fathers kingdom is outside of you. In some place in the sky or in some far off plane or dimension you won't find it. You will find rocks and birds and fish. The kingdom is within and without. It is all things.

 

 

As in I am That.

 

Until then..

 

But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

 

You seem to be proselytising here, but I would prefer to just stay focused on issues that have arisen with the Thomas 50 verse and the Holy Spirit at the moment.

[Jeff]

Hi Bindi,

 

In case you have forgotten our previous discussion on the "motion and rest" topic, here is the post to you with the description/explanation...

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38113-with-any-realization/?p=632764

 

 

Best,

Jeff

 

(Edit - missing "the")

Edited November 3, 2015 by Jeff

[dawei]

 According to the bible the Holy Spirit is physically visible or audible to onlookers when it appears, and rests upon them for some time. That would be one proof, that an independent observer has either seen or heard the Holy Spirit descending on someone during a light transmission. 

 

Other proofs would be gifts directly associated with the Holy Spirit in the Bible, specifically the gifts of healing and working miracles, gifts of foretelling things to come, discerning of spirits, speaking with diverse kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues.

 

According to the bible, there are different kinds of gifts but the same Spirit distributes them (1 Corinthians 12:4) according to the will of God or the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:11), but you claim that the Holy Spirit has been transmitted despite lack of verified observation and despite the lack of any kinds of gifts being received at all.  

 

So what is left of the Holy Spirit in light transmission, when there is no evidence for it at all? 

 

 Your only evidence is an experience of Unity. Fair enough you experience this, I am not questioning that, but the experience of Unity per se does not constitute evidence of the Holy Spirit - in fact the experience of unity is not specifically associated with the Holy Spirit in the bible. 

 

 

I realized at some point I should not be posting here as I'm not really sticking to a 2 year old thread's point

 

 

There is no expectation for people to see Qi when doing Qigong as Qi cannot be seen directly by the human eye, though I gather people often feel Qi. But if Holy Spirit/kundalini transmission is specifically referred to as light transmission, then I would expect light to be visible. It is a simple conclusion.

 

No. Some can see Qi.... so it really begs the question why folks who practice Qigong can't see Qi  

 

 

 What do you mean when you say that light is just a higher form of Qi? 

 

According to Dr. Sadao Hayano in his paper Measuring Qi Energy:

 

‘Qi wave or Qi light’ is the electromagnetic wave ( or light ) having a wave length λ = 10-5 m. 

 

Qi energy is known to have the frequency fq = 3 x 1014 cycles per sec. and a wave length λ = 10-5m, which

define energy Eq = 1.99 x 10-19 Joules/photon for the Qi wave. We note that the Qi wave is in the

spectral region of far infra - red light and can not be directly seen with the human eye.  

http://www.equilibrium-e3.com/images/PDF/Measuring Qi Energy.pdf

 

What region of the light spectrum are you referring to which is 'higher' than infra-red light?

 

I do agree that experiencing energy is similar to access to different wavelengths or frequencies... but I've not measured it in a way to give any real understanding in that way. 

 

I think there is a disconnect in some language usage...

 

Qi, Shen, Ming, Liang ... are just chinese characters which represent various ways of saying, Energy, Spirit, Destiny, and Light.

 

They are all the same but we can compartmentalize them in the manifest world as to what we have access to... but they are all one and the same: Original and Pure Energy of the Source.

 

Internal cultivation, by whatever means and I mean to include your dream approach, is but a mirror of an external observation of the source light. 

 

We can use whatever word fits for our experience. 

[Bindi]

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"
 

The image of Christ. The bible also states the "heavenly man".  

 
If 'appeared in their image' meant appeared in the image of Christ, it would have to read 'appeared in my image' as Jesus purportedly spoke these words. So grammatically it doesn't make sense that 'in their image' is in Christs image.

And 'their' is plural, which needs to be taken into account when ascertaining who 'their image' was. Do you have any other ideas on this issue? 
 

 
The receiving is the Holy Spirit (or light of God).  

 
So to you being chosen means being ready to receive the Holy Spirit. Though I don't see this conclusion being supported in Thomas 50, nonetheless there is  biblical support for your statement, eg. 2 Thess. 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." 
 

[Jeff]

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"  

 

If 'appeared in their image' meant appeared in the image of Christ, it would have to read 'appeared in my image' as Jesus purportedly spoke these words. So grammatically it doesn't make sense that 'in their image' is in Christs image.And 'their' is plural, which needs to be taken into account when ascertaining who 'their image' was. Do you have any other ideas on this issue?

...

 

I think you also need to consider that this is a translation into English. Additionally, the context of the statement is plural. "We have come from the light" and since the statement is about the "We" the plural form of "their image" would make sense in a translation. Also, there are infinite (light) children of the living Father.

 

[Bindi]

No. Some can see Qi.... so it really begs the question why folks who practice Qigong can't see Qi  

 

With those that can see Qi, what do they see?

 

I do agree that experiencing energy is similar to access to different wavelengths or frequencies... but I've not measured it in a way to give any real understanding in that way. 

 

I think there is a disconnect in some language usage...

 

Qi, Shen, Ming, Liang ... are just chinese characters which represent various ways of saying, Energy, Spirit, Destiny, and Light.

 

They are all the same but we can compartmentalize them in the manifest world as to what we have access to... but they are all one and the same: Original and Pure Energy of the Source.

 

Yet you compartmentalised light transmission as a higher form of Qi. So on further consideration is light transmission higher or all one and the same?

 

Internal cultivation, by whatever means and I mean to include your dream approach, is but a mirror of an external observation of the source light. 

 

We can use whatever word fits for our experience. 

 

Do you consider light work to be internal cultivation, and a mirror of an external observation of the source light? Or do you consider light work to be a direct experience of the source light, so beyond internal cultivation? 

 

For me dreams are indeed a mirror - of the distance between my embodied consciousness and the source. My embodied consciousness is moving towards the source, it just hasn't arrived there yet. I do do a form of Qi/energy work as well which I wouldn't refer to as a mirror of an external observation of the source light. I would refer to that as partaking in small measure of the source energy.

[Bindi]

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

I think you also need to consider that this is a translation into English. Additionally, the context of the statement is plural. "We have come from the light" and since the statement is about the "We" the plural form of "their image" would make sense in a translation. Also, there are infinite (light) children of the living Father.

 Thomas' Jesus isn't saying he has come from the light, but that the people listening to him should use this as their response when asked where they come from. Apparently this was because proselytisers were routinely questioned about their lineage, and this response bypassed the need for a lineage. 

 

But in the meantime I have found a satisfactory answer to my question through researching the possibility of 'their' being a grammatical error:
 
From 3 different scholars:

It [established itself], and it revealed itself in their image. BLATZ

And it has been shown forth in their image. LAYTON

It [. . .] until they show (?) [. . .] their image. DORESSE

Using Blatz's translation, the sentence in full would read 'the light revealed itself in their (their questioners) image, so in the image of humanity.

 

And after all that, I'm finally happy with this sentence, because i think that 'God' is indeed revealed in people.

 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Bindi

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

 

In case you have forgotten our previous discussion on the "motion and rest" topic, here is the post to you with the description/explanation...

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38113-with-any-realization/?p=632764

 

 

Best,

Jeff

 

(Edit - missing "the")

When one realizes the above statement, one knows that motion and rest are really the same thing. They are more like a spectrum where motion is the infinite potential of rest. That infinite potential is what I often call the "light". With motion, there are polarities, which I often call transmission and reception. In the purest form they are Holy Father (silence/rest) and Holy Spirit/Mother (motion/light/energy).

 

When one realizes that motion and rest are truly the same, they know that there is nothing that separates them from any being. This is true whether another person, spirit, divine being or even what many would call a demon. If one hangs more on the transmission side of the polarity, they experience more pure (mental) silence and hence a lack of perceived separation. If one hangs more on the light/energy side of the spectrum they percieve the light/energy, flows and specifically what you would call chakras. And yes, just as you and Jetsun (and many others) have described, I can be with all beings. I do not need any pictures or details for such contact as I know that nothing truly separates us.

 

I find this post to be as full of irrelevant opposite pairs as previous recent posts on the subject of motion and rest.

 

That these spurious synonyms are then used to substantiate a conclusion does not make that conclusion valid.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Bindi

[Jeff]

I find this post to be as full of irrelevant opposite pairs as previous recent posts on the subject of motion and rest.

 

That these synonyms are then used to substantiate a conclusion does not make that conclusion valid.

 

The first step is realizing that increasing energy and increasing quiet mind are really the same thing. Just two sides of the same coin.

[Jonesboy]

Here is a book I just found that might help you understand the Heart Sutra.

 

Starting on page 105.

 

http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Mirror-of-Wisdom.pdf?351736

 

This should help you understand motion and rest or as the book calls it form and void.

[dawei]

With those that can see Qi, what do they see?

 

Some see the actually energy moving others like light/color moving or they see the organs with the energy surrounding it.

 

Yet you compartmentalised light transmission as a higher form of Qi. So on further consideration is light transmission higher or all one and the same?

 

I said they are all the same but we compartmentalize them.  If someone only works with Qi at a level like Qigong, it doesn't mean much to them to talk about Light... although they are really the same thing they may not have any direct experience with the latter in a way it makes any sense.  So these are just different ways of describing different experiences of Energy.

 

Do you consider light work to be internal cultivation, and a mirror of an external observation of the source light? Or do you consider light work to be a direct experience of the source light, so beyond internal cultivation? 

 

I think it is Both/And... Internal and External are another example where we might differentiate them until they are understood or experienced as just the same thing.

 

For me dreams are indeed a mirror - of the distance between my embodied consciousness and the source. My embodied consciousness is moving towards the source, it just hasn't arrived there yet. I do do a form of Qi/energy work as well which I wouldn't refer to as a mirror of an external observation of the source light. I would refer to that as partaking in small measure of the source energy.

 

I think you can describe your particular experience with energy from an internal and external aspect and it seems to get very close to one and the same.

[Bindi]

The first step is realizing that increasing energy and increasing quiet mind are really the same thing. Just two sides of the same coin.

Are you referring here to your specific concepts of energy as light transmission and silence as light reception?

[Bud Jetsun]

Are you referring here to your specific concepts of energy as light transmission and silence as light reception?

 

 

What seems to be your body, mind and the summation of all combined life experiences was ultimately some fleeting manifestation of borrowed energy from the universe.

 

There has been no portion of the life experience that wasn't perceptions of energy.

 

A being is free to live in a self/indoctrination-created delusion of interpretation bias of this energy and replace awareness of the all encompassing energy.  A being is equally free to recognize all it's own thoughts, bias and illusion-of-understanding as exclusively non-real delusion, and in doing so surrender/still the mind into a state of perception (of this energy that composes all that you have ever experienced) alone.  

 

In this state of perception, there is no comprehension, no judgement, no bias, no thought, no delusion.   It is not possible to create a check-list for getting here, nor some intellectual lesson to learn  that arrives you there, as items on a list and words in a book are merely stacking additional delusions to obscure perception of reality. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited November 3, 2015 by Bud Jetsun

[Jeff]

Are you referring here to your specific concepts of energy as light transmission and silence as light reception?

 

No. Energy is more like "attached" light. Silence is like a quiet mind with no conscious background threads (or voices).

[Bindi]

Here is a book I just found that might help you understand the Heart Sutra.

 

Starting on page 105.

 

http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Mirror-of-Wisdom.pdf?351736

 

This should help you understand motion and rest or as the book calls it form and void.

 

A Zen story by Master Seung Sahn about form and emptiness.

 

 

 

 

A long time ago in China, during the time of Zen Master Lin Chi, there was a monk who was very famous for his Samadhi practicing. This monk, similar to the traditions of digambara, never wore any clothes and was known as the 'naked monk.' He had mastered many kinds of Samadhi, had lots of energy, and didn't need to wear clothes even in winter.

 

One day Lin Chi decided to test this monk. He called a student of his, gave him a set of beautiful clothes, and asked him to present them to the monk. The student went to the monk and said, 'Ah, you are wonderful. Your practicing is very strong. So my teacher wants to give you these beautiful clothes as a present.' The monk kicked away the clothes and said, 'I don't need these clothes. I have original clothes, from my parents! Your clothes can only be kept a short time, then they will wear out. But my original clothes are never broken. Also, if they become dirty, I just take a shower and they are clean again. I don't need your clothes!'

 

The student went back to Lin Chi and told him what happened. Lin Chi said, 'You must go to this monk once more and ask him a certain question.' So the student went to the monk and said, 'Great monk! I have one question for you. You said you got your original clothes from your parents.' 'Of course!' said the monk. 'Then I ask you, before you got these original clothes from your parents, what kind of clothes did you have?' Upon hearing this, the naked monk went deep into Samadhi, then into Nirvana and died.

 

Everyone was very surprised and sad. But when the monk's body was cremated, many Sarira appeared, so everyone thought, 'Ah, this was a great monk.' Sitting on the high rostrum, Lin Chi hit the stand with his Zen stick and said, 'Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.' He hit it again, 'No form, no emptiness.' He hit it a third time, 'Form is form, emptiness is emptiness. Which one is correct?' Nobody understood. Then the Zen Master shouted 'KATZ!' and said, 'The sky is blue, the tree is green.' If you cannot answer in one word the question about your original clothes, then, although you can get Samadhi and Nirvana, you cannot get freedom from life and death.

 

Then the Zen Master stared at the Sarira -- poof! -- they turned to water. This is magic! They all turned to water and disappeared. Everyone was surprised. The meaning of this is: if you do Samadhi practice deeply, then when you die many Sarira will appear. But, these Sarira will not last long because they represent ,one mind,' not 'clear mind' which is our original nature. Our original nature has no life, no death, no coming or going. When the true Dharma appears, which means form is form, emptiness is emptiness or sky is blue, tree is green- that energy -BOOM! - will appear, all the Sarira will turn to water and disappear. Our teaching is substance, truth, and correct life. Our Zen practicing means attain your true self, find the correct way, truth, and life. Any style of practice is OK -- even using a mantra. But, don't be attached to Samadhi -- you must 'pass' Samadhi. Zen means 'everyday mind,' not special states of mind. Moment to moment keeping a clear mind is what's important.

It is said that insight concerning the truth of things liberates, and knowing that ultimately everything is nothing is that truth. How does this relate to the heart sutra, and motion and rest, and form and void?

 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

The first step is realizing that increasing energy and increasing quiet mind are really the same thing. Just two sides of the same coin.

Are you referring here to your specific concepts of energy as light transmission and silence as light reception?

No. Energy is more like "attached" light. Silence is like a quiet mind with no conscious background threads (or voices).

 

You wrote "In the purest form I often call [transmission and reception]...the Holy Father (silence/rest) and Holy Spirit/Mother (motion/light/energy"). Post#117 on this page, referred to by you from another thread.

 

I see I mixed them up and asked if energy was light transmission and silence was light reception because without referring directly to your definition I went with the association that I intuited as correct.

 

Still, I would have expected your answer to just clarify my mix up. But now you say I am off track.

 

Honestly Jeff, how can I ever understand what you are going on about if you keep changing what you mean like shifting sands, with a different response according to the season?

 

What does "energy is more like attached light" even mean?

Edited November 4, 2015 by Bindi

[Jeff]

...

Honestly Jeff, how can I ever understand what you are going on about if you keep changing what you mean like shifting sands, with a different response according to the season?

 

It seems that we just seem to talk about different things.

[Jonesboy]

 

A Zen story by Master Seung Sahn about form and emptiness.

 

 

 

 

It is said that insight concerning the truth of things liberates, and knowing that ultimately everything is nothing is that truth. How does this relate to the heart sutra, and motion and rest, and form and void?

 

 

Hi Bindi,

 

With regard to the Zen master. I am not talking about Samadhi. I am talking about everyday life

 

He needs to go farther....

 

As to your question.

 

Change nothing to emptiness and you nailed it

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

 

With regard to the Zen master. I am not talking about Samadhi. I am talking about everyday life

 

He needs to go farther....

 

You did read this sentence at the end of his story didn't you?

 

"don't be attached to Samadhi -- you must 'pass' Samadhi. Zen means 'everyday mind,' not special states of mind. Moment to moment keeping a clear mind is what's important."

 

So perhaps he has gone far enough after all...

 

 

As to your question.

 

Change nothing to emptiness and you nailed it

 

What to you is the nature of emptiness?

 

edit: I see there is another thread that is questioning whether emptiness is nothing. There hasn't been a definitive answer there yet.

 

Is a clear mind emptiness or nothing? Or empty fullness and potential?

 

I prefer the latter concept myself.

 

Which is similar to Jeff's concept of infinite potential.

 

Does emptiness=empty fullness=nothing=infinite potential=void=full void=rest?

 

And only the permanent experience of this is to enter into reality (past Samadhi)?

Edited November 5, 2015 by Bindi

[3bob]

Buddhism and Christianity really don't mix much at all.... per doctrines and many meanings, although in non-violence there is a lot of common ground.  Otherwise in trying to correlate major concepts which don't match one will get into gumbo mud up to their eyeballs.

Edited November 5, 2015 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

 

You did read this sentence at the end of his story didn't you?

 

"don't be attached to Samadhi -- you must 'pass' Samadhi. Zen means 'everyday mind,' not special states of mind. Moment to moment keeping a clear mind is what's important."

 

So perhaps he has gone far enough after all...

Yes I did Bindi which is why I said what I did.

 

To be honest I have no idea what "Clear Mind" means in Zen. Maybe we can say it is the same thing as Rigpa... Clear Light Awareness.

 

In the "With any Realization" thread I had said that one doesn't need to experience emptiness to experience Rigpa.

 

That wasn't a true statement.

 

Emptiness is experienced in a few different way's. One way is like the supposed Zen master mentions, while in meditation. What I was saying is I didn't think one has to go outside, close your eye's and become one with everything around you. Within that oneness one realizes the emptiness of all things at the same time. I didn't think you had to go to that level to experience Rigpa.

 

The Zen master is saying that emptiness is a "state of mind". Like in Samadhi when one is residing and is feeling all thoughts, emotions and feelings as waves of energy.. Energy is like a cloud which has form but is empty.

 

Emptiness is not a state of mind, it is what everything is. A chair seems solid but science will tell us it is just energy...

 

Maybe you have noticed that you will first have an experience, then a state of mind in meditation. With continued practice one begins to experience or to realize these states during daily life.

 

Is Rigpa the end all be all of spirituality? Mahayana would say no. They would say you can have clarity/oneness and depth/continued expansion of that oneness.

 

Example being.. you can realize oneness like a Tolle, but you have not realized it enough to move it with intent. Tolle would have clarity but not depth.

 

The Zen master has experienced emptiness and is talking about clarity. But with continued depth one will begin to feel everything around them as that oneness and it's empty nature. He has not realized it in his daily life radiating from him, as him... He is more worried about right thoughts and judgement it seems.

 

Now this is getting way off topic of the thread. So maybe anymore talk about emptiness should be in the emptiness thread.

 

All the best.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

Buddhism and Christianity really don't mix much at all.... per doctrines and many meanings, although in non-violence there is a lot of common ground.  Otherwise in trying to correlate major concepts which don't match one will get into gumbo mud up to their eyeballs in trying to do so.

Per doctrines.. is the problem 3bob.

 

With the sayings of Jesus and I only speak for myself. To me when I look at just what Jesus is saying it all makes since to me. It is all in line with everything said in Hinduism and Buddhism. Read the Gospel of Thomas not as you have been taught by the church but by your depth of experience 3bob.

 

76. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself. So also with you, seek his treasure that is unfailing, that is enduring, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys."

 

To your knowledge what is unfailing, enduring that cannot be destroyed?

 

If we are talking about non-duality.. Does this not fit perfectly?

 

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

 

If you were to remove the word Jesus and instead but Buddha.. would you question this saying at all?

[Bindi]

...

 

Now this is getting way off topic of the thread. So maybe anymore talk about emptiness should be in the emptiness thread.

 

All the best.

 

Jeff states that he often calls transmission and reception the Holy Father (silence/rest) and Holy Spirit/Mother (motion/light/energy") respectively.

 

So in Jeff's terms does transmission/the Holy Father/silence/rest equal emptiness or not?

 

 

 

[Apech]

Yes I did Bindi which is why I said what I did.

 

To be honest I have no idea what "Clear Mind" means in Zen. Maybe we can say it is the same thing as Rigpa... Clear Light Awareness.

 

In the "With any Realization" thread I had said that one doesn't need to experience emptiness to experience Rigpa.

 

That wasn't a true statement.

 

Emptiness is experienced in a few different way's. One way is like the supposed Zen master mentions, while in meditation. What I was saying is I didn't think one has to go outside, close your eye's and become one with everything around you. Within that oneness one realizes the emptiness of all things at the same time. I didn't think you had to go to that level to experience Rigpa.

 

The Zen master is saying that emptiness is a "state of mind". Like in Samadhi when one is residing and is feeling all thoughts, emotions and feelings as waves of energy.. Energy is like a cloud which has form but is empty.

 

Emptiness is not a state of mind, it is what everything is. A chair seems solid but science will tell us it is just energy...

 

Maybe you have noticed that you will first have an experience, then a state of mind in meditation. With continued practice one begins to experience or to realize these states during daily life.

 

Is Rigpa the end all be all of spirituality? Mahayana would say no. They would say you can have clarity/oneness and depth/continued expansion of that oneness.

 

Example being.. you can realize oneness like a Tolle, but you have not realized it enough to move it with intent. Tolle would have clarity but not depth.

 

The Zen master has experienced emptiness and is talking about clarity. But with continued depth one will begin to feel everything around them as that oneness and it's empty nature. He has not realized it in his daily life radiating from him, as him... He is more worried about right thoughts and judgement it seems.

 

Now this is getting way off topic of the thread. So maybe anymore talk about emptiness should be in the emptiness thread.

 

All the best.

 

 

You need to try to understand what 'mind' means in yogacara systems.

[Jeff]

 

Jeff states that he often calls transmission and reception the Holy Father (silence/rest) and Holy Spirit/Mother (motion/light/energy") respectively.

 

So in Jeff's terms does transmission/the Holy Father/silence/rest equal emptiness or not?

 

 

 

 

I realize that you are not directly asking me, but in the context you are describing above as I stated it, the Holy Father/silence/rest does not equal emptiness.