will precedes choice

[roger]

People ask, if everything is part of a plan, or if "all is as it should be," then what about free-will. Doesn't that take away our free-will?

 

One way to look at it is that our WILL determines our CHOICE, but choice DOES NOT determine our will.

 

Everyone is always "choicelessly" doing their own will, which happens to be the will of God/Tao/love/All That Is, however you wanna put it.

 

We have free-will, but we DO NOT have "choice".

 

Btw, I got the idea that we don't have choice from ACIM, where it says that the concept of choice is "not of God," and that while choice is an illusion, it nevertheless has meaning and value IN THIS WORLD.

[Sahaj Nath]

first topic in a while that i was actually excited to open and read.

 

to add a little complexity:

 

our sense of separation is an illusion, as is our linear experience of time. these two components suggest a lot more creativity to the Grand Play of Consciousness, i.e., we have the flexibility to change our roles & alter our scenes as ego-individuals, and the Play still continues through different actors and/or scenes. it just might be the case that every person has multiple possible destinies with many possible death dates, and our egos sort of choose their own adventure within the over-arching Play.

 

had Hitler made different choices, another actor, every bit as wrathful and apparently "misguided" would have risen to prominence and decimated a generation of people. or maybe instead those same energies would have been directed into some zealous scientists that would accidentally incinerate a quarter of the Earth, but 50 years later world poverty is eradicated and we're all bickering over a different host of dramas

 

this is extremely crude, i admit. but to break it all down in detail would just take too damn long. i just think it's worth pondering.

[Flolfolil]

you can only do what is possible, everything else is impossible

 

you only have a choice when you realize you do

[dawei]

what precedes will?

 

ergo... will is simply following...

[idiot_stimpy]

What is aware of the will.

[Rara]

first topic in a while that i was actually excited to open and read.

 

to add a little complexity:

 

our sense of separation is an illusion, as is our linear experience of time. these two components suggest a lot more creativity to the Grand Play of Consciousness, i.e., we have the flexibility to change our roles & alter our scenes as ego-individuals, and the Play still continues through different actors and/or scenes. it just might be the case that every person has multiple possible destinies with many possible death dates, and our egos sort of choose their own adventure within the over-arching Play.

 

had Hitler made different choices, another actor, every bit as wrathful and apparently "misguided" would have risen to prominence and decimated a generation of people. or maybe instead those same energies would have been directed into some zealous scientists that would accidentally incinerate a quarter of the Earth, but 50 years later world poverty is eradicated and we're all bickering over a different host of dramas

 

this is extremely crude, i admit. but to break it all down in detail would just take too damn long. i just think it's worth pondering.

So you're suggesting that everything in the world HAS to happen, regardless? Like "filling the gap in the market" if you will?

 

I've been watching Sam Harris on Youtube talking about free will. Very interesting stuff!

[Sahaj Nath]

So you're suggesting that everything in the world HAS to happen, regardless? Like "filling the gap in the market" if you will?

 

I've been watching Sam Harris on Youtube talking about free will. Very interesting stuff!

 

 

no. what i'm trying to suggest, however crudely, is that our actions and dramas are superficial, and perhaps only a few of them are inevitable. the play and movement of energy/consciousness can manifest itself in innumerable ways. the quality of violent dispersion of embodied lifeforce might be inevitable, but HOW it unfolds in our linear experience is NOT predetermined; it could express itself as the 3rd Reich, or as a science experiment gone awry.

 

this can be considered on MANY levels. a person is living in a probability stream where he will die violently in one of two ways, and the probable events are set to manifest 4 years apart. a fatal car accident would produce different karmic waves than a fatal shooting, and the energetic (emotional/psychological) difference in impact between the two could create momentum in the flow of probability somewhere else, or could absorb probability from somewhere else.

 

i'm also suggesting that there's no good or evil in the unfolding of cause and effect. and that the working of karma is very poorly understood by most.

 

i don't know who Sam Harris is. you should post one of the videos.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Hundun

[Marblehead]

i'm ... suggesting that there's no good or evil in the unfolding of cause and effect. and that the working of karma is very poorly understood by most.

Well, At least I get to agree with you here.

 

It is my understanding that free will is unlimited, but our actual choices are limited by many variables.

 

I would agree that choices follow free will (of thoughts) but our free will to act follows from the choices we have made.

 

So, was it the chicken or the egg?

[3bob]

Well one can be presented with multiple choices after which the will can arise or withdraw concerning actions related to same.

Further, if one has developed will power in general or in particular ways then that same will should also be able to be re-directed or transferred for use in a new or different tasks. (with some adjustments)

[steve]

This is a great avenue of investigation and I'll offer my observations, for what they're worth.

When I look for the "I" that has the will and intent to make the choices, I can't find anything or anyone there.

And I've been looking for a very long time.

Consequently, I've come to feel that the thought that asserts itself as the choice maker is simply an observer, offering non-stop, blow by blow commentary,whether I ask for it or not, taking credit for what is going on.

There is some scientific investigation out there on this point of free will that tends to support the absence of choice but I'm not convinced that the methodology is yet sophisticated enough to be beyond reproach.

[Marblehead]

There is some scientific investigation out there on this point of free will that tends to support the absence of choice but I'm not convinced that the methodology is yet sophisticated enough to be beyond reproach.

I have heard that as well but I don't even consider it because if I did I would have to believe in destiny and ID. No, you wn't find me there. Hehehe.

[Rara]

 

i don't know who Sam Harris is. you should post one of the videos.

Will do...been on phone past few days so it's a bit hard but when I'm behind a desktop I will show you

[3bob]

Unchanging, unwavering will is joined to unchanging, unwavering Truth, without that all would be in vain and suffering would never end. That Truth is the true "I" and It suffers no such vanity, nor can any mind ever corrupt it for it is not limited to or of the mind.

Edited August 24, 2013 by 3bob

[suninmyeyes]

The way I see it is that Free Will comes to fructation only when the Time is right . In that sense it is not Free , but depending on the right time . Otherwise one may try and try to free will as much as they like , but it is not going to manifest .

Or one may say Free Will is useless , unless the circumstances are right .

 

 

This shows interconnectedness and interplay of many , many circumstances that co-create a human being and universe just as it is .

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Will: Magnetism: Shadow: Dryness: Cold


Choice: Electricity: Light: Moisture: Heat.


If you understand thermodynamics, the rest of this post should fall into place like Legos.

[steve]

I have heard that as well but I don't even consider it because if I did I would have to believe in destiny and ID. No, you wn't find me there. Hehehe.

Not at all - I hold no belief in destiny or (shudders) ID...

 

Even if my feeling is accurate, that does not necessarily imply destiny or some other agent making choices or determining action.

 

Does a leaf will itself to fall?

If not, does that imply destiny or a designer?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Will preceeds choice. the will of the leaf to fall was predetermined. the choice is the only thing the leaf has power over; as to when the influences of will/environment influence its choice is entirely up to the leaf.

But the cycle is already in place, the choice to resist or flow with the cycle is entirely up to every individual part of the whole, from the smallest sub atomic quark to the largest super macro galaxy supercluster.

But the consequences for resistence/compliance are also predetermined as per willpower.


If you cannot be willing to enter into the consequences of a body and its cycles, you will not incarnate as that body; karma is a matter of how the consequences of experience have affected your will(ingness).



Edit: added 'and its cycles'

Edited August 25, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[dawei]

I have heard that as well but I don't even consider it because if I did I would have to believe in destiny and ID. No, you wn't find me there. Hehehe.

 

Do you believe in a 'destiny of dao' ? Or are you outside of its forces...

[Marblehead]

Not at all - I hold no belief in destiny or (shudders) ID...

 

Even if my feeling is accurate, that does not necessarily imply destiny or some other agent making choices or determining action.

 

Does a leaf will itself to fall?

If not, does that imply destiny or a designer?

Damn Steve!

 

Actually, the tree wills the leaf to fall. The leaf is restricted in what it can do by its limitations (natural capacities and capabilities).

 

Just the nature of "things". Follow it back and I find Tzujan.

[Marblehead]

Do you believe in a 'destiny of dao' ? Or are you outside of its forces...

Hehehe. I am outside a lot of focuses but never outside Tao (and Tzujan).

 

What a question! - 'destiny of Dao'.

 

Again I state: Tzujan rules. The closest I can get to the use of the word "destiny" is to equate the word equal to the word/concept "Tzujan".

 

Was it my 'destiny' to just get up in the middle of this post and get another cup of coffee? I think not but I am sure there are those who could argue against my thought and make a logical arguement that it was my destiny to go get that cup of coffee.

 

The workings of destiny would require a force so omnipotent that I cannot even imagine such a force. That would require some force determining when each leaf of each tree should begin to die and when it is to fall. Such a force is beyond my mental grasping.

 

But to say that there are natural processes within Tao is more acceptable to me. Anything within the limits of these natural processes is possible. Nothing outside these limits can happen.

 

More astro-physicists are leaning toward the theory of a cold death of the universe. I am still with the "Big Crunch" theory. Many reasons for this.

 

Will and choices are limited to many living organisms. Things without self-consciousness must always comply with Tzujan.

[3bob]

The One can be named,

 

and is the first born of the Tao, it to returns...

[steve]

Damn Steve!

 

Actually, the tree wills the leaf to fall. The leaf is restricted in what it can do by its limitations (natural capacities and capabilities).

 

Just the nature of "things". Follow it back and I find Tzujan.

 

So the tree has a choice? The tree has free will and may hold on to the leaf until next season?

Just as the tree has simply observes the falling leaf,

... I observe the nature of "things" acting through me as my fingers fall on these keys.

 

By Tzulan, are you referring to 自然 - Ziran, of itself so?

I do agree with that description of the concept at hand.

Maybe I'm misreading your post.

[Marblehead]

So the tree has a choice? The tree has free will and may hold on to the leaf until next season?

Just as the tree has simply observes the falling leaf,

... I observe the nature of "things" acting through me as my fingers fall on these keys.

 

By Tzulan, are you referring to 自然 - Ziran, of itself so?

I do agree with that description of the concept at hand.

Maybe I'm misreading your post.

Yeah, you are understanding my post well.

 

Yea, Tzujan equals Ziran. Just a different system for translation. I am still mostly with the Wade/Giles. For me it is Tao, not Dao - Tzujan, not Ziran.

 

Let's go back to the tree because this is actually interesting (for me). Yes, the tree had a choice, biological, not conscious. It is only when the leaf is requiring more support to remain healthy than it is providing energy for the overall tree that the leaf is discarded. (Useful/Useless)

 

Trees drop their leaves when they become useless (during winter or during dry spells). If they (the leaves) remain useful to the tree the tree keeps them.

 

And yes, it truely is a choice. But again, not a conscious choice but a biological choice. Not much different from we humans needing to pee the first thing in the morning - not a conscious choice but a biological choice.

 

I don't think I can go so far as to say that the tree is 'observing' but it is sensing, I think.

 

Yes, we are conscious of our fingers typing on the keyboard else everything typed would be random jumble.

 

Let's see if you are still with me at this point?

[steve]

Yeah, you are understanding my post well.

 

Yea, Tzujan equals Ziran. Just a different system for translation. I am still mostly with the Wade/Giles. For me it is Tao, not Dao - Tzujan, not Ziran.

Cool

 

Let's go back to the tree because this is actually interesting (for me). Yes, the tree had a choice, biological, not conscious. It is only when the leaf is requiring more support to remain healthy than it is providing energy for the overall tree that the leaf is discarded. (Useful/Useless)

So what biological choice exists?

Leaf becomes dysfunctional => leaf drops, that is what happens for the deciduous tree, is it not?

Where is the biological choice?

It is cyclical and guaranteed, biologically predetermined, not a biological choice for deciduous trees.

 

 

Trees drop their leaves when they become useless (during winter or during dry spells). If they (the leaves) remain useful to the tree the tree keeps them.

 

Even this would be an example of biological determinism:

useless leaf => gone

useful leaf => stays

 

Edit here for clarity:

 

" If they (the leaves) remain useful to the tree the tree keeps them."

 

But that is not what we see. Certain species of trees always shed their leaves with the season.

Others not.

 

 

And yes, it truely is a choice. But again, not a conscious choice but a biological choice. Not much different from we humans needing to pee the first thing in the morning - not a conscious choice but a biological choice.

OK, make the choice to not pee for a week then let me know how much freedom you felt...

 

 

I don't think I can go so far as to say that the tree is 'observing' but it is sensing, I think.

 

Sensing, observing - no difference in my mind. It's just that different biological sub-systems are endowed with different sets of sensory apparatus. And we are blessed (cursed) with language, which leads to the delusion of choice.

 

 

Yes, we are conscious of our fingers typing on the keyboard else everything typed would be random jumble.

 

Consciousness does not necessarily imply control or choice.

It certainly does create the opportunity for there to be a (deluded) assumption of control and choice.

 

 

Let's see if you are still with me at this point?

 

Yup, still with you. Nice discussion, thanks.

Edited August 25, 2013 by steve

[dawei]

Hehehe. I am outside a lot of focuses but never outside Tao (and Tzujan).

 

 

The workings of destiny would require a force so omnipotent that I cannot even imagine such a force. That would require some force determining when each leaf of each tree should begin to die and when it is to fall. Such a force is beyond my mental grasping.

 

But to say that there are natural processes within Tao is more acceptable to me. Anything within the limits of these natural processes is possible. Nothing outside these limits can happen.

 

I hear you.. but it sounds like you simply like to exchange words/semantics to make something more comfortable or acceptable... that's not wu wei nor ziran nor dao. That is man exerting his idea of self-will instead of realizing what it is.

 

The Dao/Way offers a blueprint for existence. You are not able to stray outside of the blueprint.