Buddhist & Taoist Cultivation

[Green Tiger]

I recently met some monks in a Buddhist monastery, that have been meditating for over 20 years.

Two of which had achieved enlightenment, one a monk and the other a nun.

 

By the qualifications and gradations of the Damma, they were Arhats. Ones who had reached the ultimate goal and after death, would not rejoin the wheel of Samsara.

 

Now. To annihilate the mind and achieve enlightenment is no small feat.

This is cultivation of Nature in Taoism, where in some sects, there is dual cultivation; that of Nature and Life.

 

One cannot achieve the ultimate goal in Taoism it is said, if they cultivate only nature or only life.

Dual cultivation is required. Thus the body must be refined (life) until perfection and the mind (nature) must be refined until perfection. And although the mind cannot be refined without the body, the mind cannot reach the pinnacle of it's absolute goal WITH the body still in clinging. SO all phenomena, conceptions and attachments must be evaporated to attain the final goal of Taoism, similar to Buddhism.

 

In the final stages of Taoist cultivation and also from what I've heard of Tibetan disciplines, the body's 5 elements are dispersed and the body is transmuted into eternity.

 

Now, Buddhists on the other hand, don't seem to care much about this from what I've seen. Please correct me If i'm wrong as I am trying to understand here. But it seems that they only deal with the direct refinement of mind.

 

Now I really don't understand what the implications of this are. Does it mean that ultimately, they can only crate Yin Shen and not Yang Shen, having not assimilated or developed the counter part to the mind?

 

By the Gods, I do not understand how little ol me, can meditate 2 hours a day for 3 months and have enough Qi running through me to dissolve cancerous tumors and heal people. And a monk doing insight meditation for 20 years, claims he has never experienced anything even remotely similar to energy. No rushed up the spine, no rumbles or heat in the belly, no lights seen, nada.

 

And no they weren't lying.

I described very specific and common physical and energetic manifestations to them to probe into their experiences and they could not relate to even ONE, where, were I speaking to a Taoist who had been meditating for 20 years, whom was practicing an EFFECTIVE discipline, they would at the least have opened the MCO.

 

So I am very confused about all this, because fundamentally we all have the same physiology (sex differences aside), so one would imagine that a powerful path such as Buddhism would develop the body's faculties, regardless of whether they were being concentrated on or not. At least I would imagine it to be so. And btw, just to say, in regard to how effective Buddhism and the 8th fold path with the right teacher and the right meditation regime. Well. It is miraculous transformation to say the least.

 

The only thing that negates this assumption is the fact that Taoist Alchemy can be complicated, there are firing times, times to breath and not breath, times to initiate heel breathing and times not to, times to use the bellows and times not to, times to gather agents, times to combine agents, times to concentrate agents, time to pacify agents, times to invigorate agents, methods of restrain, transmutation and transformation.

 

Throw your cents please.

 

How long did you stay with these monks? It sounds like you had good experiences while meditating with them, yeah?

 

I was also reminded of Bohi Dharma (Da Mo) when I read this. I definitely prefer to have a practice that invigorates my body and clears my mind, but maybe that's a desire that these Buddhists would not cling to. *shrug* Do they desire not to desire?

 

As I understand chi cultivation, it shouldn't take much more than relaxation and proper alignment for them to at least build a noticable amount of qi in their bodies over that much time. It is very surprising they claim not to have noticed anything.

 

A wise woman once told me that everyone's path is different. I don't know what sort of path these folks are on, but if they were all haggard and unhealthy, I don't think it's a path I want to travel. I love hearing about these methods those. Thanks for sharing your experience!

 

That might be 3 cents. Keep the change.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Green Tiger

[voidisyinyang]

How long did you stay with these monks? It sounds like you had good experiences while meditating with them, yeah?

 

I was also reminded of Bohi Dharma (Da Mo) when I read this. I definitely prefer to have a practice that invigorates my body and clears my mind, but maybe that's a desire that these Buddhists would not cling to. *shrug* Do they desire not to desire?

 

As I understand chi cultivation, it shouldn't take much more than relaxation and proper alignment for them to at least build a noticable amount of qi in their bodies over that much time. It is very surprising they claim not to have noticed anything.

 

A wise woman once told me that everyone's path is different. I don't know what sort of path these folks are on, but if they were all haggard and unhealthy, I don't think it's a path I want to travel. I love hearing about these methods those. Thanks for sharing your experience!

 

That might be 3 cents. Keep the change.

 

 

Qigong uses visualization to control the energy while Buddhism focuses on the source of the energy as the Emptiness.

 

http://fulllotusqigong.blogspot.com/2012/10/maintaining-state-of-listening-but-not.html

 

Study these quotes from qigong master Yan Xin who was at Shaolin - one of the biggest qigong masters of China - he did mass healings of thousands at a time - in stadiums - all over China. The government made a documentary about him that I saw - China's Supermaster.

 

 

If we blindly focus on general tranquillity, when latent energy or the subconsciousness appears, we will send it away. This is a mistake, and is not capitalizing on our opportunities.

 

and

 

 

Those who are aged must not merely practice quiescent qigong, but must let qi run through the body constantly. They must strive for movement in quiescence and not keep themselves quiet and static, or they may easily go into shock, or raise or lower the blood pressure so much that they have a seizure or brain hemorrhage. When elderly practitioners strive for nothing but quiescence in qigong, they may pass away doing qigong practice. This is rather dangerous, so one must pay full

attention to all the reactions that occur.

[Green Tiger]

Those who are aged must not merely practice quiescent qigong, but must let qi run through the body constantly. They must strive for movement in quiescence and not keep themselves quiet and static, or they may easily go into shock, or raise or lower the blood pressure so much that they have a seizure or brain hemorrhage. When elderly practitioners strive for nothing but quiescence in qigong, they may pass away doing qigong practice. This is rather dangerous, so one must pay full

attention to all the reactions that occur. -- Yan Xin

 

No kidding? I wonder what about quiscent qigong causes shock and wildly erratic blood pressure? Thanks for the quick and interesting response!

[voidisyinyang]

Is this your experience? Because it is not my experience. Nor others that I know. The qigong that I do has no need for visualization. My teacher explicitly says to not visualize.

 

Intent travels faster than visualization. If you're visualizing, you're slowing down the qi/light. Actually, when doing medical qigong, once you set your intent, the healing begins immediately, seconds before the sword fingers are readied.

 

Yeah it's tricky. The subconscious works through light visualization information - like how a look across the room is as fast as light - people pick up on the signal and then adjust their body position based on their subconscious intent to align themselves with the light laser biophoton energy.

 

So intention as left brain words -- that is a slower vibration intention but is also part of intention. I defer to qigong master Yan Xin:

 

 

 

Please note that stillness is merely the external form. One's inside must be active. Our state of mind should constantly evolve, and we must try our best to access our wisdom.

The

key to elevating energy levels is relaxing and entering a quiescent mode at which time the good information accumulated during our daily living, working, and learning, as well as accumulated from our past words and actions

will help us receive positive effects from the qi of qigong.

Normally we react and judge immediately upon sensing something. This rapid response is the reaction by the cerebrum surface. If during group qigong

practice we sense someone making sounds, we may want to open our eyes to see the cause of the sound. While this is understandable under normal circumstances, in qigong, we should neither be seduced nor interfered with by outside stimuli.

We should maintain a state of "listening, but not really listening."

 

and

 

 

age of eighty-seven, my martial arts teacher Master Haiden still practiced "Tongzi Gong" (Young Child Skill), which was one of his four ingenious abilities. With this ability, he could jump up and down from a six foot tall stump with no difficulty. His whole body was as flexible and soft as a child's, and his skeleton and tendons did not age, get stiff or rigid. This was quite a remarkable achievement.

 

this is on video - on that Shaolin training vid.

 

intention as words:

 

 

I do not want patients telling me about their illness. This can reinforce

(lie signal of being sick and make the problem more difficult to cure.

 

and

 

 

However a good internal qigong practitioner with focused consciousness, qi and force, can easily throw a punch of over a thousand pounds of force, or even several thousand pounds of force. Using his index and middle fingers, in one stroke, Master Haiden could poke into a big bundle of sand wrapped in cow hide and hemp

sacking.

 

and the "signals" as energy transfer

 

 

I warned the Chairman of the Liaoning Qigong Association not to

personally introduce patients to me. Signals would pass through and affect him. This is especially true for an elderly person, but he would not listen. One day, he insisted on introducing a patient with gallstones to me. As soon as he mentioned the

patient's name, his gall bladder became painful. Finally, he told me, "Dr. Yan, don't punish me. My gall bladder is really painful and that is no exaggeration. You must treat it for me!"

 

and

 

 

The bi-directionality of qigong effects is the key to qigong healing.

 

 

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

and

 

 

Upon reaching a deep tranquil state, the subconsciousness will emerge. Then the tranquil state is no longer tranquil. In this way, entering a tranquil state is just a precondition, a preparation. Whether we have prepared well or not is judged by whether our subconsciousness appears or not. After it appears, we do not have to concern ourselves with tranquillity any more for the "gates have been opened." When we meet this condition, the switch has been turned on.

So yeah we get subconscious light signals after going into trance.

 

 

If we blindly focus on general tranquillity, when latent energy or the subconsciousness appears, we will send it away. This is a mistake, and is not

capitalizing on our opportunities.

 

I already posted that one -- but it is the key point.

 

But, when our subconsciousness tells us to get in the full lotus we

should do it immediately. If we have even one negative thought, such as "Oh, I am not able to cross my legs" we will miss the opportunity. Hence, "naturalness" is also letting things run their own course.

 

Have you gone into full lotus? haha.

[C T]

I am wondering whether mastery over clinging and aversion would be even 'faster' than setting intent.

[Maddie]

I am wondering whether mastery over clinging and aversion would be even 'faster' than setting intent.

What do you mean by that?

[ChiForce]

You are correct. If you haven't done so, go read Master Nan works. He said that one of the problems with the modern day Zen is that monks do not cultivate their bodies. Their bodies should exhibit the 3 Buddha bodies if they claim they have achieved enlightenment. http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhismglossaryd/g/dharmakaya.htm

 

Looks like they may only have achieved the dhamrakaya body, the mind. Their bodies are suffering. When they pass away, they may died from sickness or illness. Regardless how much their mind is cultivated, they can't help their own bodies to overcome suffering. That they aren't able to transform their bodies. They are still subjected to the nature of the biological decay, which, in the overall scheme of things, you haven't broken free from the samsara.

[ChiForce]

Here is a good link to explain the 3 Buddha bodies...

 

http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/buddhism/cul/cul02.php

[C T]

You are correct. If you haven't done so, go read Master Nan works. He said that one of the problems with the modern day Zen is that monks do not cultivate their bodies. Their bodies should exhibit the 3 Buddha bodies if they claim they have achieved enlightenment. http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhismglossaryd/g/dharmakaya.htm

 

Looks like they may only have achieved the dhamrakaya body, the mind. Their bodies are suffering. When they pass away, they may died from sickness or illness. Regardless how much their mind is cultivated, they can't help their own bodies to overcome suffering. That they aren't able to transform their bodies. They are still subjected to the nature of the biological decay, which, in the overall scheme of things, you haven't broken free from the samsara.

It wont be 'biological decay' if there is no clinging to the view of a self. To have eradicated all clinging and aversion (clusters of misery which habituate delusion and ignorance) is to have mastered fear. To have fear turned over (wisely) is to have overcome all notions of dualistic tendencies. No longer subjected to such tendencies, concepts like decay and formation, sickness and healing, mind and body, birth and death, take on a new meaning all together. Thus freed, emancipation cannot be avoided. At this point, even intent becomes redundant -- all anxieties are resolved, and desires are quelled spontaneously as quickly as they arise. In fact, liberation is realized effortlessly, without the need to set intent at all.

Edited June 4, 2013 by C T

[ChiForce]

It wont be 'biological decay' if there is no clinging to the view of a self. To have eradicated all clinging and aversion (clusters of misery which habituate delusion and ignorance) is to have mastered fear. To have fear turned over (wisely) is to have overcome all notions of dualistic tendencies. No longer subjected to such tendencies, concepts like decay and formation, sickness and healing, mind and body, birth and death, take on a new meaning all together. Thus freed, emancipation cannot be avoided. At this point, even intent becomes redundant -- all anxieties are resolved, and desires are quelled spontaneously as quickly as they arise. In fact, liberation is realized effortlessly, without the need to set intent at all.

However, one still can not decide "when to die" because one hasn't mastered the body, regardless how much your mind is cultivated. Master Nan talks about this mindset early on in his "To Realize Enlightenment." When your body is healthy, you experience all sorts of mental bliss. When you get old, you die from sickness and illness. You haven't been liberated.

[ChiForce]

This is from Master Nan "To Realize Enlightenment." Page 155:

 

"Illuminating mind and seeing true nature means seeing the dharmakaya. When your cultivation reaches the point that you are fully equipped with the six spiritual powers, and the three buddha-bodes and the four wisdoms of the buddhas, and the 32 marks of the buddha, and the 80 good qualities of a buddha, this is the completion of the sambhogakaya. When your cultivation reaches the point that you can manifest hundreds of millions of transformation bodies, this is the accomplishment of the nirmanakya.

 

Many of the teachers of the Zen school managed to see the dharmakaya, but they didn't necessarily achieve the sambhogakaya and the nirmanakaya. Among the 28 Zen patriarchs in the India, and the Zen Patriarchs in China before the 5th and 6th Patriarch, some of them achieved all three buddha-bodies, but after the 6th Patriarch those who achieved all three buddha bodies were few."

[C T]

However, one still can not decide "when to die" because one hasn't mastered the body, regardless how much your mind is cultivated. Master Nan talks about this mindset early on in his "To Realize Enlightenment." When your body is healthy, you experience all sorts of mental bliss. When you get old, you die from sickness and illness. You haven't been liberated.

There are no two ways to die.

 

Death is unavoidable. Being able to decide the time/place to leave the body may be hard to attain as a siddhi, but its not fundamental to liberation. Death is not suffering... clinging to life while trying all manner of ways to prolong the agony and fear of obliteration is.

 

There are numerous accounts (i have seen one myself) of meditation masters whose body does not fully decay at all (like a normal corpse) after death. People would flock to worship and pray to these shells of a body, not fully knowing what it means. You think this is high attainment? (Practitioners who reach the ninth Jhana -- the cessation of feelings and perceptions -- can perform this when death comes). Yet, the Buddha said to Ananda, "As long as there is clinging to the equanimity attained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, a practitioner is still not totally unbound. Only without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."

 

Those in the know say these so-called masters are actually frozen in samadhi, and there are rituals which can be performed to 'thaw' them in order to release this blocked state so that the body (which is useless anyway at that time) may continue along what should occur naturally during the after-death phase.

[ChiForce]

There are no two ways to die.

 

Death is unavoidable. Being able to decide the time/place to leave the body may be hard to attain as a siddhi, but its not fundamental to liberation. Death is not suffering... clinging to life while trying all manner of ways to prolong the agony and fear of obliteration is.

 

There are numerous accounts (i have seen one myself) of meditation masters whose body does not fully decay at all (like a normal corpse) after death. People would flock to worship and pray to these shells of a body, not fully knowing what it means. You think this is high attainment? (Practitioners who reach the ninth Jhana -- the cessation of feelings and perceptions -- can perform this when death comes). Yet, the Buddha said to Ananda, "As long as there is clinging to the equanimity attained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, a practitioner is still not totally unbound. Only without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."

 

Those in the know say these so-called masters are actually frozen in samadhi, and there are rituals which can be performed to 'thaw' them in order to release this blocked state so that the body (which is useless anyway at that time) may continue along what should occur naturally during the after-death phase.

Huh..you are missing the point. You are not liberated if you are dying from old age illness. Certainly not liberated if you are dying from some illness in your 60s or even 70s, regardless how much your mind has been cultivated. Here, death is suffering. Suffering from sickness and illness when your organs do not even have the energy to function, regardless how much your mind may think that this isn't happening. If your mind cultivation is at this high level to transform the body, you won't have gotten sick or ill at all. You would decide when to die. This isn't same as someone clinging to not dying. Is more like when you have fulfilled your destiny, it is time to depart from the world.

Edited June 4, 2013 by ChiForce

[voidisyinyang]

There are many people who cultivate practice until they are very pure, but their

bodies are all sick…. When they really get to the brink of death, they cannot

completely empty out that one moment of thought, and so they sink down into

oblivion following it. So the moment of purity that they attained, frankly

speaking, is something material, something that is linked to their physical health.

Can something like this be relied upon? It cannot.499

 

499 Master Nan, Huai-chin, Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice (Red

Wheel/Weiser, 1993), p. 204.

 

Kind of ironic that Master Nan died with his body sick - but there you go!

[ChiForce]

499 Master Nan, Huai-chin, Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice (Red

Wheel/Weiser, 1993), p. 204.

 

Kind of ironic that Master Nan died with his body sick - but there you go!

And he smokes too....

[Jetsun]

Huh..you are missing the point. You are not liberated if you are dying from old age illness. Certainly not liberated if you are dying from some illness in your 60s or even 70s, regardless how much your mind has been cultivated. Here, death is suffering. Suffering from sickness and illness when your organs do not even have the energy to function, regardless how much your mind may think that this isn't happening. If your mind cultivation is at this high level to transform the body, you won't have gotten sick or ill at all. You would decide when to die. This isn't same as someone clinging to not dying. Is more like when you have fulfilled your destiny, it is time to depart from the world.

 

Chogyam Trungpa died at age 48 of organ failure and he supposedly attained the rainbow body, Nisaragadatta Maharaj died of throat cancer, Master Nan Huai Chin died of common flu, Ramana Maharshi died of cancer at age 70 and when his devotees asked why he didn't heal himself he said "Why are you so attached to this body? Let it go" and "Where can I go? I am here."

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jetsun

[effilang]

When you think of the body, we are just a collection of dying and birthing cells.

We are never permanent, even on that cellular level.

 

In fact, our physical bodies are the embodiment of transience.

I can understand through this why most Buddhist traditions concentrate only on working on the mind.

 

The faculties that develop thereafter, such as supernatural powers, become a capacity of our essential nature as much as a part of our essential life.

 

I think that in the end, there is no difference between taking the body to the peak of its refinement by pulverizing it into through the disintegration of the elements AND whether you leap out of the Bai Hui and completely abandon the shell without it's assimilation.

 

I could be wrong, but that is how I see it.

Edited June 4, 2013 by effilang

[XieJia]

There are no two ways to die.

 

Death is unavoidable. Being able to decide the time/place to leave the body may be hard to attain as a siddhi, but its not fundamental to liberation. Death is not suffering... clinging to life while trying all manner of ways to prolong the agony and fear of obliteration is.

 

There are numerous accounts (i have seen one myself) of meditation masters whose body does not fully decay at all (like a normal corpse) after death. People would flock to worship and pray to these shells of a body, not fully knowing what it means. You think this is high attainment? (Practitioners who reach the ninth Jhana -- the cessation of feelings and perceptions -- can perform this when death comes). Yet, the Buddha said to Ananda, "As long as there is clinging to the equanimity attained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, a practitioner is still not totally unbound. Only without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."

 

Those in the know say these so-called masters are actually frozen in samadhi, and there are rituals which can be performed to 'thaw' them in order to release this blocked state so that the body (which is useless anyway at that time) may continue along what should occur naturally during the after-death phase.

 

Thank you for the Buddha's quote; your posts are always heart-warming.

[Green Tiger]

Everyone's path is different.

 

I suspect it is true that these practices typically have the side effect of good health, but we would have to do a more extensive survey to determine that for certain.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Green Tiger

[ChiForce]

Everyone's path is different.

 

I suspect it is true that these practices typically have the side effect of good health, but we would have to do a more extensive survey to determine that for certain.

Is not a side effect. When your body is too weak to sustain your consciousness, your consciousness will die or leave the body. What if your consciousness hasn't been liberated or enlightened yet?

[ChiDragon]

Is not a side effect. When your body is too weak to sustain your consciousness, your consciousness will die or leave the body. What if your consciousness hasn't been liberated or enlightened yet?

 

Can you please tell me what is that mean by your consciousness has been enlightened. I wanted to know what is the word "enlightened" meant here in relationship with consciousness.

[ChiForce]

Chogyam Trungpa died at age 48 of organ failure and he supposedly attained the rainbow body, Nisaragadatta Maharaj died of throat cancer, Master Nan Huai Chin died of common flu, Ramana Maharshi died of cancer at age 70 and when his devotees asked why he didn't heal himself he said "Why are you so attached to this body? Let it go" and "Where can I go? I am here."

Maybe he can't heal himself??? Have there been records of him healing people? If not, maybe he can't heal himself. In Taoism, what people called healing is simply to restore the balance of the chi. What is exactly wrong with restoring the balance of the chi as nature intended? That's not clinging. To determine to uncling your body and to deny the body to function naturally is actually a type of clinging. As with Master Nan, for the fact the he smokes, that may have something to do with his health later in the year. It could be some sorts of karma, maybe. Karma can manifest itself through our body too.

Edited June 4, 2013 by ChiForce

[ChiForce]

 

Can you please tell me what is that mean by your consciousness has been enlightened. I wanted to know what is the word "enlightened" meant here in relationship with consciousness.

Chi channels opened. Seeing light in your meditation. Transforming your jing energy into shen. Of course, according to Master Nan, the final liberation would even stop your chi from moving and your blood from flowing. I don't believe one can be truly liberated but we can be liberated to some degrees (managed to enter and leave various state of samadhi and to experience 2 or 3 or 4 levels of jhanas). If your body is too weak from not eating healthy or taking drugs, you will have a hell of a hard time to cultivate your mind. If you have the power to ignore your body, you will have the power to strengthen your body and to heal it. By pretending your body does not exist, it does not mean you have the power over your body.

 

I think that's what Master Nan called "who is the master and the host???" Or "a host and the guest?"

Edited June 4, 2013 by ChiForce

[三江源]

 

Can you please tell me what is that mean by your consciousness has been enlightened. I wanted to know what is the word "enlightened" meant here in relationship with consciousness.

That's a good question.