thelerner

Thanking other beings and calling on them

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So many meditative traditions have practices where you start or end with thanking other beings, calling on other beings for help or virtue. I've always felt uneasy with that. Maybe its echoes of Judiasm that there is none other then G-d. Maybe its that I want to do it on my own. Maybe its that I don't believe in the 'other' and/or don't want to introduce an x factor into my unconscious, something that takes my perception from what Is, into projections of what I expect it/want it to be.

 

Taoists see immortals, Christians see saints, Buddhists see Buddha etc. Our preconceptions color the light we see.

 

Who do you thank and call on? And how do you see them? As spirit, ideal or unconscious aspect of your own mind?

 

Michael

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As part of the lojong (mind training) teachings in Tibetan Buddhism I'm grateful to all living beings for affording the opportunity to practice compassion, patience and discipline - without them spiritual practice is contextless. Also at one time or another, according to doctrine, they have also all been my mother or father.

 

Various practices by varying degree call on root and lineage masters, yidam deities, dakas & dakinis, dharma protectors and karmic creditors. Ultimately we have all the same essential primordial nature but on the relative level they are as apparently real and independent as other illusory aggregates grasped at as self and other.

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Maybe its echoes of Judiasm that there is none other then G-d.

Michael

Doesn't Judiasm have an extensive belief in angels?

T

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So many meditative traditions have practices where you start or end with thanking other beings, calling on other beings for help or virtue. I've always felt uneasy with that. Maybe its echoes of Judiasm that there is none other then G-d. Maybe its that I want to do it on my own. Maybe its that I don't believe in the 'other' and/or don't want to introduce an x factor into my unconscious, something that takes my perception from what Is, into projections of what I expect it/want it to be.

 

Taoists see immortals, Christians see saints, Buddhists see Buddha etc. Our preconceptions color the light we see.

 

Who do you thank and call on? And how do you see them? As spirit, ideal or unconscious aspect of your own mind?

 

Michael

 

 

Such a great question!

 

Daoists actually see what they can perceive of, beit immortals or Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, Gods, Demons, Dragons, etc. There are myriad types of living beings out here.

Buddhists are similar in that they are not limited by their doctrine, only because their teachings are not fixed, nor is it their teachings. For the sake of saying, they see any and all; Gods, Saints, Angels, Demons, Immortals, etc...

 

On my part, there is respect to those who have done good in the past, helped living beings, and taught mannerisms in cultivation for the bettering of living beings. Wether it is Jesus in the mind at the moment, or Allah, other saints, immortals, etc. It doesn'tmatter because they have teaching which are really for the good of living beings, peace and harmonious living. Yet, some teachings can only go so far as to have people do good things, etc.

There are teachings that help beings do much much more, and in turn can do more good than other teachings. :)

 

Peace and Happiness

Aiwei

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Thad, as far as angels go, years ago I would have said, Judiasm really isn't concerned with Angels, there are a couple of appearances in the 5 books of Moses, but they're considered powerful but lesser beings who serve G-d. Ofcourse with a religion as old as Judiasm you have many interesting angles.

 

While Angels aren't mentioned a whole lot in the original 5 books, there are sacred books where they get front row seats. I paged through Rabbi Aaron Cooper's book on Angels. Very interesting, Angels presented almost like Saints (albeit ones who had never been human). It used them as focal points in prayer. He makes some interesting points, though I don't think they're neccessarily widely accepted or focused upon in mainstream Judiasm.

 

Its still not my cup of tea. A few of my guided meditations have you 'speak' to your subconscious, role play with it, ask it questions. I've never been good with them. It usually too clear that I'm making up the answers my self. I 'feel' myself thinking.

 

In Buddhism, prayers that call for the enlightenment of all people seem wrong to me. Who am I to say what others should get? And its not like my prayer would or should have power over others, it enough that it should have a little bit of power over me.

 

Michael

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Thad, as far as angels go, years ago I would have said, Judiasm really isn't concerned with Angels, there are a couple of appearances in the 5 books of Moses, but they're considered powerful but lesser beings who serve G-d. Ofcourse with a religion as old as Judiasm you have many interesting angles.

 

While Angels aren't mentioned a whole lot in the original 5 books, there are sacred books where they get front row seats. I paged through Rabbi Aaron Cooper's book on Angels. Very interesting, Angels presented almost like Saints (albeit ones who had never been human). It used them as focal points in prayer. He makes some interesting points, though I don't think they're neccessarily widely accepted or focused upon in mainstream Judiasm.

 

Its still not my cup of tea. A few of my guided meditations have you 'speak' to your subconscious, role play with it, ask it questions. I've never been good with them. It usually too clear that I'm making up the answers my self. I 'feel' myself thinking.

 

In Buddhism, prayers that call for the enlightenment of all people seem wrong to me. Who am I to say what others should get? And its not like my prayer would or should have power over others, it enough that it should have a little bit of power over me.

 

Michael

 

 

:)

 

One isn't imposing the enlightenment of others by praying for it. It is just empowering the conditions that will allow them to see clearly. Enlightenment isn't something one should/can get. I am sure you know that a mind undefiled is the pure mind, the awakened mind. It just so happens that in the cultivation school of Buddhism it is described very clearly.

Praying for the enlightenment of others is a nudging into a wise direction of living through one's conditions/mind. It isn't a depending on a higher being or source, buta catalystic means to empower another.

 

Its like teaching a language. Many of the students don't want to be in the classroom, and since your the teacher, you have to find ways to gather their attention. Just because they are in the classroom doesn't give the teacher the power to make them learn, but the teacher can use methods to ensure that student takes a wiser approach of expressing his/her dislaike for the language sothe student doesn't disrupt the class. It is a means to mae one awaken to a wiser mind.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

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Yeah, I do. Ring a bell, (sometimes offer veg. food), wave incense, ring a bell again. Mantra.

 

I was an atheist as a youngster, thought it was all hooey, and was pretty strict at each step of convincing - so there were many steps that got me to this place, and I've had some of the same concerns as you. I'm not interested in projecting~imagining and, ime, it's pretty easy not to.

 

Classically, and practically (including mundane areas of life), many of the most beneficial learning experiences are a result of "keeping good company", ... ime, this is a very worth while avenue of exploration, despite how silly it may seem at first.

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Thanks for your post Trunk. I suspect you're right. The question is how to do it without feeling phoney or hypocritical?

 

I ran into this same problem with Chi Gung and even Aikido. The imagining of energies flowing out of your arms, linking colors and feelings to movements. I over came the reluctance and there was a huge improvement in quality and depth of both arts.

 

I guess it begins as a focus.

 

Michael

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.. same problem with Chi Gung and even Aikido. ... I over came the reluctance ..
Big part of it right there, "overcoming the reluctance". For me, in both the cases I'm thinking of, I was studying with teachers that I respected.

 

The first one gave a printed mandala for meditation, with a mantra. It's not something I previously was interested in, and really had no (like, zero, lol) preconception nor expectation that anything would happen. But, I was in the group and - as I said - I respected the teacher, so I tried it out as he said. Things happened, and I was "wow, ok, there's something to this". But it still took a variety of experiences, over the years, for me to really get the idea as "my own", not just something I was doing as part of participation.

 

Another teacher, years later, similar. There was a ritual that took considerable work, in preparation, and - really, honestly - I had zero interest in ritual. Thought it was empty, dry. But, I liked and respected the teacher so... I worked, and participated, only out of respect for him, again, really zero interest in ritual. It turned out to be one of the most intense experiences of my life. Utterly grateful.

 

All of that was contrary to my prior western culture mental conditioning, critical thinking, mind-set that our culture tends to identify with science. It's not like I grew up in India, and I guess I had some typical male mental stubbornness of world-view, masquerading as sharp savvy.

 

I realize that it's more "onward, through the fog!", out here on our own. :)

 

The question is how to do it without feeling phoney or hypocritical?
You don't have to believe, belief is not a prerequisite, ime. Preconceptions and preconditioning, however you show up, that's what it is, and is honest. The opening is just that you have to be willing to experiment. And be open for whatever does or doesn't happen. That's an honest approach.

 

Trying to believe, when you don't actually, is not needed, and is - as you mentioned - disingenuous. That sort of "faith" is counter-productive, imo, and contradicts the integrity of being true to one's own experience. Willing to experiment, willing to admit the possibility of new, as yet unknown, experience (which may or may not happen), that's different, honest, worth while, potentially (not garunteed) fertile ground.

 

A note re: science, btw. The crux of science is not "I already know everything that's going to happen", but experimentation and receptivity to results (whatever they might be, plenty of failed R&D out there).

 

Hope I haven't been verbose.

 

Keith

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The first one gave a printed mandala for meditation...

 

Same thing here, except it was staring at a thumbtack on the wall until the wall was gone. Thought it was crazy of coarse. Utterly mind wrenching while I figured out it was impossible while thinking about it. This was probably one of my first learning experiences about what it means to 'still the mind'. I am grateful for the man who taught me, he retired and went on to live out his dream of selling his boathouse for a grand sailboat and sailing around the world. Thanks Phil, your simple words of wisdom have kept me warm on cold nights.

 

Spectrum

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I love the topic, Michael!

 

I am still going through the process of learning who to call on. I was always somewhat aware of my "guides", but they seemed distant. I did all of my praying to the Supreme Being and I figured if I was meant to know my guides, then the prayer would trickle wherever it needed to go. I did this through an eclectic belief system. I have been everything from Atheistic to Catholic to the list goes on and on and on. I would admit, however, I have never truly embraced ONE belief system. I view them as all one in the same, just different strokes for different folks.

 

When I became very aware of my guides through channeling, I found that while they are very helpful, they can also be quite a distraction. I have been told by others that one can go directly to "the source" without all the interference of the guides and get the same, or better, "results". That if someone is utilizing guides directly, it is because they feel they need the concrete distraction and don't yet have an understanding of what "accessing the source" is. I think that is the boat I'm in at the moment.

 

IME, I am working on embracing what has many different names...the "Christ Consciousness" is the one I mostly go by. From my limited understanding, this is about accessing the Supreme source directly rather than going through the distractions that guides can impose. However, I would not know this if I did not pay attention to my guide who said that I am to repeat the mantra, "I am my Solar Christ" that led me to beginning to understand what I am discussing here. Though, I still don't know exactly what "Solar Christ" means...

 

The way I see it at the moment, is that it is all about energy. Guides can show you how to balance your energy, build it up, but they can not actually increase it for you. When dealing with "the source", the fluff falls away, making more energy available to you. Even that definition falls short for me, because I don't view the Supreme in "quantity", but rather "quality".

 

Where I am now, I thank and call on the Supreme first and foremost, but I bow in respect and humility to well....all creatures...and accept gratefully whatever any being of light is willing to share with me.

 

It certainly is a journey with many twists and turns. I would guess, for now, that accessing "the source" directly without distractions of guides straightens out the road a bit.

 

Warm Fuzzies,

Amy

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btw, the two basic things that I've gotten from deity interactions:

1. Grace - that is, a flow or radiance of high quality vibe.

2. An example of pure body cultivation, that my body learns from.

 

I've never gotten words, nor 'conversation' about topics. For me, I think, that would be cumbersome - I have difficulty enough keeping track of my own mind, adding another voice in there would be further confusing, I think. :huh:

 

-- later edit --

No disrespect meant towards those that have other sorts of interactions, that's just how it is for me.

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I believe that matter originally sprang from our non-physical source during the big bang and is sustained by that source in every moment. We are constantly calling upon the Tao/God/angels/ancestors/collective unconsciousness/etc no matter which way one clumps or articulates this.

 

In a recent Discover article, physicists say that not only is matter mostly nothing but a tiny volume of quarks bouncing around, even those quarks are mostly "virtual particles" that shimmer between physical and nothingness.

 

It seems the more we dig, we can't find anything solidly "physical."

 

Yoda

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I've never gotten words, nor 'conversation' about topics. For me, I think, that would be cumbersome - I have difficulty enough keeping track of my own mind, adding another voice in there would be further confusing, I think. :huh:

 

-- later edit --

No disrespect meant towards those that have other sorts of interactions, that's just how it is for me.

 

Hahaha...I understand what you are saying. When I first began going through channeling, I felt like I was going crazy. I did some research on Kundalini energy rising some time ago and noticed that one of the "side effects" could be psychosis. I laughed because I could relate very well to that. When I began channeling, I felt very much like I was going insane. The self-healing alone was a roller coaster ride I wouldn't want to ride twice.

 

I admit, it is difficult to find the "quiet" when there are conversations with guides almost constantly throughout my day. Most people go on meds for that kind of activity. LOL! I do sometimes feel it is very distracting. I am working on the discipline of achieving quiet and stillness. My guides help me with that, too. I can get there, but the moment is so fleeting. I lack discipline.

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I admit, it is difficult to find the "quiet" when there are conversations with guides almost constantly throughout my day.

Hi Amy, what are these guides talking to you about? Do they sometimes mislead you? And, can you give some tips on how to contact them? Do you actually see/hear them or is it an intuitive sense?

Thanks!

T

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Channeling is too cumbersome for most situations where on the fly inspiration is needed like having a fun thought, having a nice conversation, or driving a car but it is pretty cool for unpacking intellectual issues and entertainment value... a-muse-ment and all that.

 

Imo, both channeling and connection to source is very easy for kids and becomes more challenging as one gets older.

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I call on, and thank every Heavenly being I can conjure, regardless of religious affiliation.

The way I figure it, it can't hurt to cover all your bases!

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Hi Amy, what are these guides talking to you about? Do they sometimes mislead you? And, can you give some tips on how to contact them? Do you actually see/hear them or is it an intuitive sense?

Thanks!

T

 

Hi T! I would say that my guides really don't talk as much as they "do". I have written pretty much about it in my intro post in the intro thread. Mostly, they perform Qi Gong healing on me. They have told me a story of creation, though I don't know if it was all of creation or just how I came to exist. I interact with them a lot in dreams. In my daily life, I call on them in drawing, writing, singing, etc... It is voluminous to get into. But, they taught me about Hinduism of which I knew nothing. They led me to Taoism through drawings I have done and through journeys. They taught me toning, which I had never even heard of. Things like that and so much more.

 

I can't say that I have ever been misled this far. I was working with someone I considered a mentor and they kept telling me the mentor had to go, and I felt distrustful of them because I had so much trust in my mentor. But, eventually I did let the mentor go, and now in retrospect, I see how that mentor was not only brainwashing me, but working his own agenda pulling me from my path. I have had much more peace and growth since I let the mentor go.

 

I see them in my mind's eye. Sometimes I journey with them. They speak through me, so I hear them also. I also feel their personality fill me up. It's hard to explain. I have met other channelers, but their experiences seem radically different from mine in that their guides don't take over their whole body like my guides take over mine. People tell me my whole being seems to change. I don't know why that is.

 

I don't really have tips on how to contact them other than to be open. My guides came to me through a Reiki attunement. One day I breathed, and the next day my breath sounded like wind, and the next day, a voice came through singing and she filled me up and started moving my hands tapping my chakras, etc... While I believe anyone can channel, I have no idea how to help people to do it other than by teaching or suggesting they do Qi Gong, as that is the primary practice my guides teach me. Most people who have asked me that or whom I have tried to help become afraid and stop. I think it takes a great deal of faith and trust in the "unknown". Even still, I have difficulty trusting my guides sometimes. It is scary to give yourself over to another being in that way.

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Channeling is too cumbersome for most situations where on the fly inspiration is needed like having a fun thought, having a nice conversation, or driving a car but it is pretty cool for unpacking intellectual issues and entertainment value... a-muse-ment and all that.

 

Imo, both channeling and connection to source is very easy for kids and becomes more challenging as one gets older.

 

Hahaha. Yeah...I never let them drive...lol. I do think, though, that channeling may enhance one's creativity and that is very inspiring. I have participated in the "entertaining" channeling, but I learned quickly that it is something that needs to be harnessed and cultivated and like any other power should not be used willy nilly. Now I only allow the guides through to speak if it is for a specific healing purpose. I don't do it to fulfill other's curiosity.

 

Not all channeling is the same. Some people do it to feed ego. And I have met some channelers who were very unstable and very ungrounded, yet they won't stop because it's like an addiction for them. Or, they view it as some ultra-special gift that defines them. For me, I recognize that there may come a time when I don't utilize channeling anymore on my path because I will have found other ways to access the source directly.

 

I was reading that the shamans in ancient Taoism would conjure a guide and the guide would fill them so the shaman could have access to the guide's knowledge and power. That is essentially what is called "conscious channeling" today, which is what I do. While it is still very important to stay grounded, which I'm learning better to do, it is a very good tool to have in the chest when it comes to doing healing work.

 

I also agree, it comes easier for kids than adults. Kids haven't been all screwed up by society's expectations and suffering yet. Haha.

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I don't want to intrude with a very intense aspect to the subject of this great thread, but the interactions I have had with celestial beings, that seemed intent on helping me, all happened when I was under severe duress.

 

I have had a few near-death experiences, and each time I experienced a being or beings that seemed to be living as light or some glowing manifestation of being. In any case they were always female and incredibly kind and supportive and giving and nurturing and each time I believe they gave me the strength to stay alive.

 

Once after several days of suffering, one even took my spiritual place within my own body to tender some relief to my inner, deepest self. I think of these beings as angelic if not angels -how else can I put a name to them?!

 

These entities or spiritual manifestations were always sharers of an almost pure compassion. Very similar to the experience I had upon meeting the Dalai Lama -which I have written of here before...

 

Some say we are each blessed with a group of angelic spirits that serve to protect us. I believe I have met a few of mine. With strong faith in the inherent "goodness" of that which we hold as our true spirit, many harsh realities may be overcome and transcended. Sometimes we need gentle reminders or help, from our guardian angels.

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I believe that matter originally sprang from our non-physical source during the big bang and is sustained by that source in every moment. We are constantly calling upon the Tao/God/angels/ancestors/collective unconsciousness/etc no matter which way one clumps or articulates this.

 

In a recent Discover article, physicists say that not only is matter mostly nothing but a tiny volume of quarks bouncing around, even those quarks are mostly "virtual particles" that shimmer between physical and nothingness.

 

It seems the more we dig, we can't find anything solidly "physical."

 

Yoda

 

At the same time it appears that physicists have found that protons and electrons are conscious. They can choose how to manifest themselves according to their environment. They dream their own reality into being to some extent.

Like us.

Like that which is more vast than us.

So if you send your prayer, incantation, gratitude, etc out into the universe, there probably is some consciousness that can perceive the communication you have dreamed up.

Edited by darebak

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For me it's a natural and spontaneous impulse to thank the spirits. When I quiet my chatter,in the ensuing space my first feelngs are humility and gratitude and wonder. So the natural thing is to give thanks. To whoever. "God" when I was a child (in an agnostic family ) and to the 4 Directions nowadays.

 

Interesting isnt, what that impulse actually is. Is it the heart shen emerging? or something more complex?

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